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JanineR (Tennessee)
Posts: 259
Posted:
How to handle board bottleneck and bullying?

This is another “too much power” question, but in the opposite way that another poster is recently experiencing.

Two board members have decided that only they will discuss items, and then decide to bring it to the board. Usually in the form of calling up another director, sweet talking them to say yes, then putting it into an email motion.
If anyone asks for discussion in the email motion, then they say along the lines of, ‘we already have three votes, your questions are a waste of email”

If I bring something to the board, then I get belittling emails, saying that I should of have run it through them first, not the board as a whole.

Example 1:
We recently had property manager change, and follow up of things have fallen through the cracks.
I asked if we could discuss tomorrow the top two delinquent accounts that are over five months old.
Neither of these delinquent accounts are on the dockets for general sessions courts. I wanted five minutes in our meeting to see if letters had been sent out, and where we are in that process.

(side note, one of these two top delinquent accounts is an ex director, and who is the boss of the attorney that is in charge of collections. As of this week we fired the attorney for other reasons. This makes this discussion even more important as there are open dockets that have been paid but still show open, and vice versa, and a management issue)

The response from one of the two was that no time would be allotted on the agenda. “We, {ABC Condos} have procedures in place.
….but… I am part of that “We” and am not informed as a director.

The response from the second director was that this question was a waste of his email.

Example 2:
We are voting tomorrow to change management company and management scope from offsite to full time onsite.
I discussed that we should consider having our current boxes of records scanned.
Two votes yes.
Nasty email from director 2 saying how ridiculous I am for raising this.

There are plenty more examples.

This is not a rant. The board has made HUGE progress in improving the community in a short time.
I really respect one of the two reference above a lot.

The question is how to nip this in the bud and stop this being a two-person board when we are a five-person board?
That there is no hierarchy of directors, we are all equal, and have a fiduciary duty to be informed. (Director 2, said that he and director 1 will decide who needs to be informed)

How to factually poise these concerns in our monthly meeting tomorrow.
How to stick up for the association, when it is likely the path of least resistance from the other directors will be just let them run with it, so they don't have to engage in these types of unhealthy emails and phone calls.

This is Tennessee condos. Closed meetings.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
I don't have good suggestions for how to deal with your situation, but I want to say:

As HOA President, I was pressed into running a more transparent board. We do two things to make this happen

1) We do not discuss HOA business via e-mail. We only discuss things live at Board meetings where we can have interactive discussion, and homeowners can be present if they choose to (none choose to save my wife). This actually works well. Not doing e-mail reduces everyone's workload and allows a focused 90 minute time period each month that we all focus on Board business.

Note: We do e-mail each other regarding project execution (not board decisions or agenda items). If you volunteer to lead a project, you can expect to get project related e-mails between meetings.

2) Any Board member can contact me to add something to the agenda prior to the meeting.

3) The last slide of every meeting is an "around the room" where I ask if there are any further topics that anyone has that they want to bring up.

I wish that I could invite others (like you guys ) to our meetings to see how they are run. They are fast, efficient, interesting, and effective. I wish that other boards would do business like ours, because our style is really working well.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
It depends on how many homes are in your development as for the reason why you need on-site management. Switching from off-site to on-site management will almost certainly lead to a significant increase
in monthly assessments. I would say your objection is spot on.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- Bear in mind that trying to reason with people who are mostly unreasonable is often a failing proposition. Try, try not to beat your head against a wall with these people. They are going to keep abusing you. You will likely not be able to stop the bullying. As the line goes: How you react is all you can control.

-- Are votes being taken by email? If so, board votes occurring without a meeting are only lawful when all directors consent in writing. You can try reasoning with the others, but do not get your hopes up. For sure these folks are not going to understand how to parse Tennessee nonprofit corporate statute section 48-57-104

-- If you can get the board to agree to an attorney consult on taking actions without a meeting, this might give you your best chances of forcing discussions to take place only at in-person board meetings and so cut down on the bullying by email. Email and social media are, as this forum and many forums often exemplify, platform that feed bullies. (Anyone thinking: "Uh, Aug, pot kettle black?" Yeah yeah. I hear you. Will try to do better.)

JanineR (Tennessee)
Posts: 259
Posted:
I temporarily "won" the action without meeting part.
With the understanding that quorum of email is five, with at least three yes's.
A quorum at a meeting is three.

Then that started to slip.

As an example, if someone motions that we need to increase widgets from 11 pink to 17 yellow, I will ask a question, and if I am opposed to the decision, I will still provide my no vote just to move things forward as quorum for email and not have it moved to the monthly meeting. Since this is minor and we don't have to agree on everything.

But, as a real life example, there is a motion to repair the interiors of a unit using association funds, this requires more discussion, and not to be shamed for asking questions. One board was blasted for saying no. Weirdly, then he emailed back and said yes. I was blasted for asking a question. It is my duty to be informed before making a vote. I did not get an answer, therefore I did not make an email vote.

-----------------------------------------

The biggest issue, is not the action without meetings, it is the idea that two board members can tell you that you and other board members are on a need-to-know basis, and that any questions on a subject matter are a waste of their time.

I am the only board director that lives on property. We have structural issues, maintenance issues and legal issues. When I see owners that voted for me, I can't say 'I don't know because 2 directors have taken control'.
These owners voted for me to speak up.

I am also the only board member that invested time in CAI training, regularly read the governing documents (and don't refer to all of as "Bylaws"), reviewed this forum for years, know state statutes supersede the master deed, understand the difference between directors and officers, recognize fiduciary duty etc.

I think I'm looking for a good way to describe in tomorrow's meeting that it is my fiduciary duty to be informed. Not two board members. Funneling everything between two people compromises my duty.

Trying to compose my thoughts so that I can address this eloquently and legally, in front of a bully.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
I would just ask if you can stop discussing things by e-mail and instead discuss at a board meeting and vote after having a brief discussion.

This works way better. Better discussion, better decisions, less time, less stress.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Since I don't live in TN, Janine, I won't read Augustin's generous citation for you. What does it say about taking action without a meeting??? Does it really say you only need a "quorum" to hold such a meeting?? Most states, even closed meeting states, seems to say that such action must be unanimous by all directors. Please let us know what the statute says.

This "meeting tomorrow": Is it all a phone or email meeting?? Why isn't your association holding Zoom meetings like most other associations so you can have a decent organized meeting with an agenda that you directors stick to.

Look, Janine, there are 5 on your Board, two are bullies and two others seem to go along with them. On your own, I'm afraid that you cannot order the two bullies to be polite!

(Henry, Janine says all directors except for her live off site.)

Henry seems compelled to insert how fabulous his board meetings are now no matter what the topic. I am thrilled to have seen Henry's growth in this regard. I always agree with anyone who says in-person or Zoom meetings are far more productive than online or phone meetings even if your state allows the latter. I do believe that Owners should have the right to see and hear the board's deliberations. The entails good notice of when open meetings will be held; holding them at a time and place that's convenient for most owners
JanineR (Tennessee)
Posts: 259
Posted:
The monthly board meeting is in person.

The action without meeting I am fine with.
I fought this one so it is recognized that it doesn't take 3 emails to say "yes" to be "approved" over email, it takes a quorum of 5 over email, which is different from a noticed meeting that has a quorum of 3. Votes over email need to be recorded and attached to the next minutes.

The real issue is how to say professionally to two people that they can not decide what comes to the board. I can deal with the bullying part, I want to prevent the not being informed part.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 02/21/2022 1:27 PM
I would just ask if you can stop discussing things by e-mail and instead discuss at a board meeting and vote after having a brief discussion.

This works way better. Better discussion, better decisions, less time, less stress.

I believe you when you say it works better for you. But it beats the hell out of me how you get anything accomplished without email. Maybe it’s because I’m in Austin, and the general populace is a bit more comfortable with electronic communications in general.

I wonder if OP’s issues stem not so much from “email” as “private email”. It’s not been an issue for us (so far), but as dysfunctional as my BOD is, there has not been a lot of private discussion or collusion over neighborhood business matters: almost everything goes to a board@ group email. It sounds to me like OP’s problems are largely the result of non-public consensus building (via email but it could just as easily happen at the corner tavern).

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 02/21/2022 3:28 PM
Posted By HenryS7 on 02/21/2022 1:27 PM
I would just ask if you can stop discussing things by e-mail and instead discuss at a board meeting and vote after having a brief discussion.

This works way better. Better discussion, better decisions, less time, less stress.


I believe you when you say it works better for you. But it beats the hell out of me how you get anything accomplished without email. Maybe it’s because I’m in Austin, and the general populace is a bit more comfortable with electronic communications in general.
BillD

Bill, I'm not in Arizona but rather in one of the tech capitals of the US (Seattle) so it's not a issue of comfortableness with e-mail. We're all highly versed in e-mail.

It was really hard to pivot to making decisions at meetings. One is we had to start meeting on a monthly basis. Second we had to squeeze everything in 90 minutes. Third, I have to ensure that we make enough decisions at meetings to carry us on for an entire month, since we aren't going to make decisions for 30 days after the current meeting. So I made a number of changes:

1. Realizing that we only have 90 minutes and need to make a lot of decisions, everything that is not related to decisions needs to go out of the meeting. Thus, we do not work issues during the meeting. We don't give status updates on projects. We don't hash out details ad naseum. Rather, we make a decision and then move to the next topic. Board members are expected to execute projects between meetings.

2. The minutes are provided in advance and not read during the meeting. This saves oodles of time.

3. I have to carefully think about the agenda ahead of time to ensure that I have captured everything that we need to cover for the next month during the meeting. This means I spend 2-3 hours preparing for the meeting so it can be run more efficiently. I make a powerpoint slide presentation to go along with the meeting to keep us focused, and also has pictures from our community of everything that we are talking about. This helps keep the tempo up and allows us to focus on the topic at hand, and we all see a picture so we all think the same thing of the images that we see.

4. All meeting agenda items are proposed in advance and the presenter is only given a couple minutes to discuss.

It wasn't easy pivoting to making decisions at meetings, but we did and it works really well for us.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 02/22/2022 7:06 AM
Bill, I'm not in Arizona but rather in one of the tech capitals of the US (Seattle) so it's not a issue of comfortableness with e-mail. We're all highly versed in e-mail.

It was really hard to pivot to making decisions at meetings. One is we had to start meeting on a monthly basis. Second we had to squeeze everything in 90 minutes. Third, I have to ensure that we make enough decisions at meetings to carry us on for an entire month, since we aren't going to make decisions for 30 days after the current meeting. So I made a number of changes:

1. Realizing that we only have 90 minutes and need to make a lot of decisions, everything that is not related to decisions needs to go out of the meeting. Thus, we do not work issues during the meeting. We don't give status updates on projects. We don't hash out details ad naseum. Rather, we make a decision and then move to the next topic. Board members are expected to execute projects between meetings.

2. The minutes are provided in advance and not read during the meeting. This saves oodles of time.

3. I have to carefully think about the agenda ahead of time to ensure that I have captured everything that we need to cover for the next month during the meeting. This means I spend 2-3 hours preparing for the meeting so it can be run more efficiently. I make a powerpoint slide presentation to go along with the meeting to keep us focused, and also has pictures from our community of everything that we are talking about. This helps keep the tempo up and allows us to focus on the topic at hand, and we all see a picture so we all think the same thing of the images that we see.

4. All meeting agenda items are proposed in advance and the presenter is only given a couple minutes to discuss.

It wasn't easy pivoting to making decisions at meetings, but we did and it works really well for us.
When it comes to the (incredibly important) format for running a meeting and avoiding the temptation of (non-emergency) actions without a meeting, I think the above is perfection defined.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posted:
As a Board President, all of the Board members have the power to add agenda items without other Board members voting. Our residents receive the Board agenda a few days before the Board meeting and can request something to be added to the agenda.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
are you sure that decisions without a meeting only require 3 of 5 yes votes.??

Most of the allowances for non meeting decisions require unanimous consent, not just unanimous response.

this is big difference and you should get confirmation .

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