Two styles of HOA leadership

Started by HenryS7 • 22 replies • 478 views

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HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

I've been the board now approaching three years and currently hold the role of President.

Reading this forums, I can see that there are two approaches to being on the HOA.

One way is to focus on all things legal and procedural. Discussing whether Board meetings are following Robert's Rules to the letter, discussing intricate aspects of state law governing nonprofit corporations. Discussing proper procedures to follow in all circumstances.

The other way is to focus on boots on the ground work: Getting street lights fixed, lawns mowed, sprinklers repaired, playgrounds maintained, mailboxes replaced, and the like.

From my perspective, homeowners don't care much about the legal way. Sure they want the Board to operate in compliance with the law. But not that much as long as it "seems fair" at a cursory glance. They do care dearly about the boots on the ground work. They want to see that association dues are being used wisely in the community.

From this, I focus less on legal aspects of running the HOA and much more about boots on the ground work seeing that our community is well maintained.

To each their own. I have my way, others have their way.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

I think you have to do both. Obviously, the "boots on the ground" stuff is your primary purpose but if you do not follow the law, you may end up costing your members a lot of money.

Do your job and follow the law. These are two absolutes.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think your binary approach is waaaay overdone, Henry. You also resort to hyperbole. For the several years I've followed this forum, I've seen, for example, no emphasis by ANY board member that they follow Robert's Rules even loosely, let alone to the letter. Most bylaws do not require it.

Our Bylaws don't, and we use Robert's strictly as a default when our Bylaws are silent. There are 11-15 board meetings a year and perhaps we need to refer to Robert's once (over my 14 years on our boards)a year. It's always the same issue: how to reconsider and/or rescind a decision previously made.

Agendas for meetings are pretty standard so that "procedure" isn't usually an issue. Legally, though, in some, maybe many states, items must be on HOA agendas posted w x days in advance to be discussed or voted on. Some boards seem to think they're above the state laws and even if they bother to learn these, they or their majority, anyhow, think they do not have to comply with every law.

In my 14 years on boards in this HOA, the main distinctions I see are some board majorities are more secretive than others. A Board that dominated for 3 years here was worried those pesky owners were going to argue with them. They worried those pesky owners would take up too much time in Open Forum making meetings less "efficient." So it felt like to me that some board majorities were highly autocratic while other were far more open and democratic in the sense of appreciating and valuing Owner input.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

Henry, you should be doing both, with the legal side being very limited in use. Make sure the day-to-day business is taken care of, good communication to the residents, and to the Board as to what is happening in the HOA, make sure each Board member is involved in the running of the HOA. Our HOA has had one legal issue in the 25 years of existence and that was because of the behavior of a Board member towards a Property Management company.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I agree it's both.

I think you may have gotten a mistaken impression from the answers to questions here because the large majority of them touch on legal aspects of HOA governance.

The "boots on the ground" stuff will vary by community, priorities will vary by community, and frankly there isn't much about it that is unclear (except maybe how to pay for it all). Hence you won't see many questions from irate homeowners because the board planted petunias
vs. marigolds - although I do remember a question from an upset homeowner because the board had decided to tear out a bunch of healthy trees. And sometimes there are squawks about ACC approvals and community esthetics.

But even with this stuff, the questions will boil down to "can the board do that and what can I do about it" - and that always goes off into legalities.

Finally, in HOAs/COAs the members are always financial and legal partners, and the underpinnings of those relationships are in legalities. You can't get away from it. If these underpinnings aren't solid, then the whole thing collapses.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

"From my perspective, homeowners don't care much about the legal way."

This statement is flawed from the get go. The majority of homeowners don't have a clue about what the 'legal way' is. However, I think it's more than fair to assume that the homeowners expect the Board to operate within the law so that they don't end up shelling out $$$$ to settle a lawsuit that was a direct result of the Board's incompetence or unwillingness to follow the law.

Simply put the quote above is a disturbing sentiment for any Board member to entertain.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 02/21/2022 6:03 AM
"From my perspective, homeowners don't care much about the legal way."

This statement is flawed from the get go. The majority of homeowners don't have a clue about what the 'legal way' is. However, I think it's more than fair to assume that the homeowners expect the Board to operate within the law so that they don't end up shelling out $$$$ to settle a lawsuit that was a direct result of the Board's incompetence or unwillingness to follow the law.

I think it is extremely rare that an association has to shell out money to settle a lawsuit due to the Board's incompetency.

Yes, homeowners expect the Board to operate within the law, but care far more about boots on the ground work than legal stuff. I can tell you our property manager discourages us from sending questions to the legal firm because they charge and homeowners don't like to see lots of legal charges for random questions in the financial reports. We pursue as many free legal advice avenues as possible so homeowners don't think we are throwing money away on attorney bills.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

In other words, I am saying that the legal stuff is the means to an end. Nothing more.

The bread and butter of a single family home HOA is compliance and maintenance of the community. Those are why I'm on the board. Not because of the legal aspect. I'll do the legal aspect because I have to, but not because I want to.

I don't know of any HOA that got sued, for example, due to a lack of following Robert's Rules of Order as one example.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HenryS7 on 02/21/2022 6:48 AM
In other words, I am saying that the legal stuff is the means to an end. Nothing more.

The bread and butter of a single family home HOA is compliance and maintenance of the community. Those are why I'm on the board. Not because of the legal aspect. I'll do the legal aspect because I have to, but not because I want to.

I don't know of any HOA that got sued, for example, due to a lack of following Robert's Rules of Order as one example.

Not to be snarky, but you do realize that the requirements for the items in bold are spelled in the CC&Rs and are *legal obligations*? As I said, the law is the foundation of the HOA structure. It may be a means to an end, but without the means there is no end.

As I'd mentioned earlier, the vast majority of the questions posted here boil down to "can the board do that and how do I push back?".

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

And "what the homeowners care about" is a poor guide to board behavior. I think it's been well established here and elsewhere that homeowners generally don't understand what they've bought and what the financial and legal implications of that decision are.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

There are many types of "leadership/management". My approach was to be a "Fascilitator". That means whatever the people wanted is what I had to work towards doing. My example: If everyone wanted to paint the curbs "Red". My job was to get the votes, the money, and the contractors to do it. It wasn't my job to "agree" with it, but do it if that is the "will of the people".

It did not mean did not follow the rules in doing it. Like I said, had to have the votes and means to make the money happen. That takes obeying the rules. Had to decide is this a board vote? Is it a membership vote? Do we need to have a special assessment? Is this something our HOA is responsible for? (Lawncare was our only responsibility technically).

I tried to bring a copy of the rules to every meeting. If asked, tell people let us consult the rules first and then reply. Which when replied it would include the quote from the rules.

So it is combo of both. Do the will of the people but only by what the will of the people wrote down...

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HenryS7 on 02/21/2022 6:39 AM

I think it is extremely rare that an association has to shell out money to settle a lawsuit due to the Board's incompetency.

Yes, homeowners expect the Board to operate within the law, but care far more about boots on the ground work than legal stuff. I can tell you our property manager discourages us from sending questions to the legal firm because they charge and homeowners don't like to see lots of legal charges for random questions in the financial reports. We pursue as many free legal advice avenues as possible so homeowners don't think we are throwing money away on attorney bills.

As I said before, most homeowners do not have the knowledge to understand the 'legal stuff' and come to an educated decision on when to care about legal stuff over boots on the ground.

There are times when you should reach out to a real lawyer and I personally did not give a rat's ass what the homeowners thought about spending these funds. If enough owners felt I was not representing their interest they had an avenue to recall me. Given that apathy runs rampant in most HOA's, we all know the odds of that happening are slim to none.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

I would say there are roughly two styles of HOA/COA governance:

1.
The Board tries to comply with the covenants and statutes and get things done as lawfully as possible.

2.
The Board does whatever it wants, thinking "We are the Board and all-powerful," sometimes complying with the covenants and statutes and sometimes not.

Perhaps having a forum dedicated solely to the socio-psychological needs of the second group is needed. Though in my experience, the second group almost always ends up writing its own rules, resolutions, policies et cetera, because the second group realizes, surprise surprise, people need to be working from the same page.

The first group has been working from the same page all along.

Discussions on governing by the so-called great philosophers comes to mind here (not that I have read any of them since a touch of same frosh year in college). The social contract and so on. The second group of HOA/COA Boards may end up, in its own plodding, not very thoughtful way, re-inventing the wheel.

Things could be worse. Like receivership.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Let's keep in mind that when Henry write that Owners like this or do not like that we must take it with a grain of salt. He does not know what owners like or dislike because no owners attend board meetings and Henry likes it that way. Meetings are held in directors' or Henry's home. All he "knows" is "blue collar" and bus stop gossip.

Our CC&Rs, and I'm sure most, state that the Board's job is, basically, to protect, maintain & enhance our common assets. But we must do these by adhering to our own governing documents and state statures. I think it's very dangerous for Henry's assn. to try DIY gov. doc and legal interpretations.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I get what you’re saying about focusing on things people can see vs. the legalese many folks don’t read to begin with, but the reason you keep the legal stuff in the back of your mind is so everyone understands what the association can and can’t do, even if they think it doesn’t make sense. You tend to make assumptions about what your neighbors care about or not, and while you may be right, it’s a dangerous thing to rely on that assumption because that can change within the hour.

It doesn’t have to be an either/or choice – the key is to do the boots on the ground stuff according to the documents (with a generous helping of common sense) and address the legal stuff when homeowners (and board members) get cranky about one thing or another. If you follow your documents, you may not have a lot of legal stuff to worry about because it becomes ingrained within your actions and you do it without being told (or threatened).

To wit – if your documents say you’re supposed to have open meetings, quit trying to go around that and announce the date, time, and location – if the homeowners want to show up, they will. If residents are supposed to submit exterior change requests before starting on a project, that’s what they should do, even if they think it slows things down (enforce those rules consistently and fairly, and document everything). If homeowners are entitled to certain Association documents, you should have a policy in place to facilitate that, so the board doesn’t have to debate or run to the attorney to see if X document can be disclosed or not.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HenryS7 on 02/20/2022 5:30 PM
I've been the board now approaching three years and currently hold the role of President.

Reading this forums, I can see that there are two approaches to being on the HOA. …

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https://youtu.be/wCDIYvFmgW8

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———

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 02/21/2022 10:18 AM
I get what you’re saying about focusing on things people can see vs. the legalese many folks don’t read to begin with, but the reason you keep the legal stuff in the back of your mind is so everyone understands what the association can and can’t do, even if they think it doesn’t make sense. You tend to make assumptions about what your neighbors care about or not, and while you may be right, it’s a dangerous thing to rely on that assumption because that can change within the hour.

It doesn’t have to be an either/or choice – the key is to do the boots on the ground stuff according to the documents (with a generous helping of common sense) and address the legal stuff when homeowners (and board members) get cranky about one thing or another. If you follow your documents, you may not have a lot of legal stuff to worry about because it becomes ingrained within your actions and you do it without being told (or threatened).

To wit – if your documents say you’re supposed to have open meetings, quit trying to go around that and announce the date, time, and location – if the homeowners want to show up, they will. If residents are supposed to submit exterior change requests before starting on a project, that’s what they should do, even if they think it slows things down (enforce those rules consistently and fairly, and document everything). If homeowners are entitled to certain Association documents, you should have a policy in place to facilitate that, so the board doesn’t have to debate or run to the attorney to see if X document can be disclosed or not.

Well said, especially the with a generous helping of common sense and be open about meetings.

RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550

Posted:

I know of two smaller POAs/HOAs going through episodes of new residents versus longer term residents in regards to how the associations operate, with new residents running for Board right after moving to the neighborhood, and then wanting to change most aspects of it.

I suspect it is less common in larger developments, or maybe not.

Have others send that situation?

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RogerJ1 on 02/21/2022 2:11 PM
I know of two smaller POAs/HOAs going through episodes of new residents versus longer term residents in regards to how the associations operate, with new residents running for Board right after moving to the neighborhood, and then wanting to change most aspects of it.

I suspect it is less common in larger developments, or maybe not.

Have others send that situation?

That’s an interesting way to characterize it.

In my neighborhood - which is about 30yrs old - it seems like older people who have been here awhile have already done their time on the Board, so the only people who run are younger people who have moved in more recently. I’m not certain it’s accurate to say the younger people in my neighborhood are wanting change - but I can see how it might appear that way, and that may indeed be what you are witnessing.

Again: a very interesting observation.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It IS interesting. Our condo twin towers opened in 2001 and my spouse & I and some other "young" retirees moved in in mid-decade.
The Board was comprised of original owners. Our developer, who owns about 5% of the buildings has a permanent seat on the Board as the Owner of this commercial space. He was hugely influential with the early board.

We new owners-- "the small group"-- included one man who'd sat on previous HOA boards so had experience. It also had an architect, who'd been a construction supervisor and owns a local property management company, so was very knowledgeable about state statutes. The two of them taught us how to understand our Bylaws and state laws. The Architect warned us our HOA needed to start moving on construction defects, which she was sure existed. Our board developer's rep kept sweet-talking the board into thinking all was well. More and more of the Board's discussions and then decisions were made in executive session instead of in open meetings.

We put together a slate, campaigned rigorously & honestly and took over 3 seats on the board of 7. A year later we had the majority. And we accomplished a lot including a successful settle meant with the developer over construction defects.

Fast forward several years to 2017. The earlier group added good directors who were older. They aged out, others moved away and some new Owners--young retirees-- got elected. Things went south fast as they were secretive, abusive to owners and to the board minority. they also made a terrible financial decision.

At the end of 2019, yet another new batch of owners, young retirees with impressive backgrounds coalesced and joined me on the Board. We did a huge amount of hard work in 20/21.

In my HOA, anyway, it's been the case three times since late '06 that "new blood" has been elected and has made changes. Once in a negative direction and twice in positive ways.

Upshot: I'm thinking thats welcoming new owners and trying to get them involved in your HOA is really important. Are, strong social committees have done a fine job of that. New Owners, feeling welcome and quickly making friends can be the lifeline of board service.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 02/21/2022 10:39 AM

HA! So nice to see there's a poster as cool as moi!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 02/22/2022 7:22 AM

HA! So nice to see there's a poster as cool as moi!

I’m a 60+yo retired white guy. I will never be that cool.

But the song came to mind as I was reading Henry’s words about the binary nature of HOA philosophies.

Also, Christopher Walken dancing. The man is a National Treasure.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/21/2022 5:44 PM

Upshot: I'm thinking thats welcoming new owners and trying to get them involved in your HOA is really important. Are, strong social committees have done a fine job of that. New Owners, feeling welcome and quickly making friends can be the lifeline of board service.

You’ve got me wondering: it’s rough to find people around here willing to serve on the Board.

But we do have a “welcome committee” that hands out a basket with coupons and such. I’m wondering if we should add a card about Board membership and participation. It’s not much, but it would be something. At the very least, it could help new owners learn how to contact the Board. And maybe some of them will be motivated to get involved?

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

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