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DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Wondering if we have any Davis Sterling experts? My HOA currently does not have any rent restrictions. We're thinking about putting a cap of 25%. And my HOA management company the saying we can do it in the rules with board vote and not via CCR's or bylaws that require 75% or 50% approval
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Usually the threshold to amend the CC7R's is 2/3rds of the owners. I would not go 25% cap, I would go lower. If I recall the cap on rentals for FHA and VA mortgages is around 20%. You
don't want to push out qualified buyers from you community. Another hot button action is STR's, but I assume STR's are lumped in with LTR's and are not look at separately for the rental cap sake.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site

DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


This is what I thought
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
MC is saying in rules & regulations. Pending lawyer letter from them as confirmation
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
MCs and PMs unfortunately often are wrong. Moreover they are not lawyers. Laws on HOA rentals seem to be in great flux in CA. I would only trust the advice of an HOA attorney (not some other kinds)

I think Tim's on target here.

If the attorney agrees you can have a 25% cap and it only needs to be in the rules, remember in CA that potential rules must go out for 28 days for Owners comments before the Board makes a decision. And then, even if the board approves it, Owners could come back and attempt to overturn it.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Don't know about California but when we re-wrote our governing docs we added the stipulation that a home must be owner occupied for one year before it can be rented out.
DaveP8 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 47
Posted:
John: How would/could that rental restriction be enforced?
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


Our older than dirt CCRs state 75% is required.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


Our older than dirt CCRs state 75% is required.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


Our older than dirt CCRs state 75% is required.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


Our older than dirt CCRs state 75% is required.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/09/2022 3:09 PM
The management company is incorrect.
Also note, the new law prohibits restrictions below 25%

Additionally, the restriction (if none currently exists) would only apply to new owners - not current ones. See the Davis-Stirling reference.

It must be in the CC&Rs. Otherwise, they are not enforceable if challenged in court.

See:

New California Law has huge impact on HOA Rental Restrictions 2021 news article

California HOA Rental Restrictions-What You Need to Know from a law firm

RENT RESTRICTIONS & PROHIBITIONS From davis stirling site


Our older than dirt CCRs state 75% is required.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveP8 on 02/09/2022 8:41 PM
John: How would/could that rental restriction be enforced?

Fines or taking the owner to court for a judge rule and force the owner to remove the tenant.

Not great options. As others have stated, too many renters and it affects who can get a loan for buys which can potentially impact market value. I say potentially because it depends on how big the pool of buyers is and what % would then be excluded.

Also too many renters affects the HOAs ability to get a loan for larger projects. This is what we are running into.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Good luck in enforcing. The HOA doesn't own the homes nor does it involve itself in leases. So don't know if you can legally enforce rental restrictions except in very few states if that.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Read Tim's CA citations, David. You'll see that your PM is wrong. You must amend your CC&Rs. 75% is not an unusual number. It IS hard to achieve and your HOA doesn't hav time to amend them because of a new rental restriction that begins in July '22.

You must talk with your attorney (What can be done in other posters' states is NOT relevant in CA).

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I think the OP should keep in mind the difficulty of administering a 25% cap. This comes up at this forum a lot.

Let's assume the HOA properly passes an amendment or possibly a rule that permits the HOA to lawfully apply a 25% cap to rentals.

The first thing that should happen is that everyone with renters at the moment must be grandfathered in. What percentage of the units are now rentals? If the number is over 25%, will the HOA try to get the number down via natural attrition of landlords?

Once the number is one unit below 25%, the HOA contacts the first person with a unit on the HOA's "Rental Waiting List." The person says, "Oh. I am living in the unit at the moment. May I have six months to move and then get my unit rented?" If the HOA says, sure, no problem, then this is depriving someone else of six months of rental income. If the HOA says, "No, that's not fair. The HOA will proceed to the next person on the waiting list but subsequently keep you at the top of the waiting list."

I think it's a bloody nightmare to administer.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
to piggyback on to Augustin's.....

I would advise having a serious think and reflection about why you want this rental cap and how it will be enforced and what kind of headache/drama/confrontation this will cause. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Why do you want to control your neighbors property like this?

Also, most governing docs, law and court precedence also discuss the concept of adding more restrictions that previously did not exist. Generally, an HOA cannot add new restrictions and new equitable servitudes that did not exist initially and are more restrictive than the original restrictions.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 02/10/2022 10:13 AM

Also, most governing docs, law and court precedence also discuss the concept of adding more restrictions that previously did not exist. Generally, an HOA cannot add new restrictions and new equitable servitudes that did not exist initially and are more restrictive than the original restrictions.
Now I am piggybacking. I realize the California legislature in particular has thought a lot about this. This is because of the housing shortage in California. In particular, rentals may especially be in short supply. But since first reading this thread, I too have been thinking what AdamL1 says above.

The courts do not like HOAs/COAs adding restrictions to how a lot or unit is used. Even if, say, an amendment is lawfully passed, in the courts amendments are more likely to be successfully challenged than what was in the original governing documents.

I suspect adding any kind of rental restriction still tends to be a minefield, even with California's new legislation.

It's a shame. CathyA3 and others here have pointed out what happens when more than half of units are rentals. But there's always another side here. Like landlord rights. Rights under the covenants. Et cetera.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
As I understand it, some will say you need 100% of owners agreeing to add a rental restriction that was not there before. If not, you open yourself to legal action from those that disagree.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good grief, JohnC. The CC&rs determine what % is needed for amendment or addition or deletion.

Augie wrote:" I suspect adding any kind of rental restriction still tends to be a minefield, even with California's new legislation." Instead of "even with," it's "because" of new legislation.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/10/2022 10:57 AM
Good grief, JohnC. The CC&rs determine what % is needed for amendment or addition or deletion.

Augie wrote:" I suspect adding any kind of rental restriction still tends to be a minefield, even with California's new legislation." Instead of "even with," it's "because" of new legislation.

Kerry

I fully understand that but I have heard and maybe seen on here, that if there were no rental limits in the original Covenants that adding them drastically changes the terms of a contract (Covenants) so all parties must agree to.

We have no limits to amount of rentals but one cannot rent their home during the first year of their ownership and that seems to have limited our rentals to below 10%.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 02/10/2022 11:04 AM
I fully understand that but I have heard and maybe seen on here, that if there were no rental limits in the original Covenants that adding them drastically changes the terms of a contract (Covenants) so all parties must agree to.
I agree with JohnC46 that, even in California, the wording of the covenants can make it quite difficult to pass an amendment that will survive a court challenge. That the required number of owners approved the amendment, and through a proper vote, may very well not matter.

Davis-Stirling.com does have a lot to say on this. California legislators do want there to be more rentals.

Just saying that by my reading, what JohnC46 and AdamL1 are saying is not small potatoes.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/10/2022 11:09 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 02/10/2022 11:04 AM
I fully understand that but I have heard and maybe seen on here, that if there were no rental limits in the original Covenants that adding them drastically changes the terms of a contract (Covenants) so all parties must agree to.
I agree with JohnC46 that, even in California, the wording of the covenants can make it quite difficult to pass an amendment that will survive a court challenge. That the required number of owners approved the amendment, and through a proper vote, may very well not matter.

Davis-Stirling.com does have a lot to say on this. California legislators do want there to be more rentals.

Just saying that by my reading, what JohnC46 and AdamL1 are saying is not small potatoes.

exactly. You could amend and pass any sort of thing that meets the voting threshold (usually 75% for CCR's), but that doesn't make it legal.

Let's say the Membership voted to Amend the CCR's to say "nobody named Steve is allowed to live here" and it passes because 75% of the Members don't like that guy named Steve. Yes, technically it meets the requirements to amend the CCR's, but that doesn't make it legal....

You need to keep in mind and make sure both the [process and requirements to amend governing documents] as well as [what is legally allowed] and make sure both are met. It's not that hard.

Remember the Hierarchy....
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveP8 on 02/09/2022 8:41 PM
John: How would/could that rental restriction be enforced?

In our community all rentals have to be approved. Our condo sub-associations have an 18 month period after purchase where they cannot be rented. They can catch it that way.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Adam, et al.: State laws, of course, supersede CC&Rs. Our draft restated CC&Rs went out to Owners today and were carefully vetted by our HOA attorney. We had two Town Halls to prepare Owners. We need 67% of all eligible units to pass them.

Where we are, vacation rentals (STVRs) are the issue. Per state law, we may only limit a rental term to 30 days though Owners here would prefer 3 or 6 months.

We aren't interested in rental caps, but I believe they're no longer permitted in CA even if in existing CC&Rs.

About 25% of our residents are renters. During the Great Recession, we were up to 42% rentals.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 02/09/2022 4:21 PM
MC is saying in rules & regulations. Pending lawyer letter from them as confirmation

Sounds like they want the Association to pay for a legal opinion.

Is it the MC's attorney or one the Association chose?
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
This article was written by a local HOA attorney. Although it focuses on "pet rules", there are a couple of sections that mention restrictions on the use of a unit.

http://communityassociationmanagement.com/c49-legal-compliance/c57-ask-the-experts/how-to-decipher-hoa-pet-rules/
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 02/10/2022 3:14 PM
This article was written by a local HOA attorney. Although it focuses on "pet rules", there are a couple of sections that mention restrictions on the use of a unit.

http://communityassociationmanagement.com/c49-legal-compliance/c57-ask-the-experts/how-to-decipher-hoa-pet-rules/

yep, as discussed often here. There's a hierarchy....rules cannot conflict with CCR's. a Rule's authority must be cited to specific section of the CCR's.

Not sure who and why all these board members seem to think they can just write rules to suit whatever they are feeling.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
DavidP, on this topic, your HOA simply must pay for an attorney's opinion. Are you on the Board? Hope you'l share with us the attorney's opinion, which seems to be forthcoming, yes?

Again, your PM is NOT a lawyer. In addition, CA statutes are changing rapidly & your PM may NOT be up to date on what your HOA must do to comply with statutes.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It also comes down to what type of refinance/mortgage options your HOA wants to be able to have. FHA and other government type loans do have a built in rental restriction. Which is filled out in a PUD form. Something you may want to get familiar with BEFORE deciding on any of this. It's not the look of the land as much as how much/loan options banks will give you with a large rental percentage.

Former HOA President

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