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BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Here’s a fun one that came in Friday afternoon.

My neighborhood has a new PM who is struggling to support us. PM does first (contractually obligated) Violation Patrol, cites ~10 properties. One cite is for “improper sign”: the resident has a child in the US Air Force and has placed a small “Go US Air Force!” sign near the front door. Citation has no fine, says “please remove sign”.

Cited neighbor sends letter to PM protesting citation, stating a) why don’t we support our troops?, b) other neighbors display various signs, and c) he’d like us to send him a copy of whatever document restricts signs. Oh, and please send them in accessible format, since neighbor is blind.

Our bylaws and restrictions are online - in the form of crappy non-searchable, non-accessible PDF scans. Late last year we asked our lawyer to update our bylaws etc to searchable format, I don’t believe they’ve even started on the work.

Also, flags and signs have been an ‘issue’ for our neighborhood: for over a year we’ve been attempting to come up with a scheme that allows the neighborhood to vote to decide what kinds of signs and flags they want to allow. When I say “we” I mean “the Board” and not necessarily “me” - I kinda walked in on the middle of it. Enforcement policy on flags and signs has been - I really have no idea. As best I can tell, current rules do indeed forbid this kind of sign.

WWHTD? (What Would HOATalk Do?)

Thanks,

BillD

My personal take is below. I don’t have strong feelings on this except that yeah, we need to make these docs accessible.

a) Tell PM to not cite flags and signs unless they receive complaints from residents. This is temporary policy until new, improved rules are in place.

b) Void citation for the neighbor.

c) Explain that we’re in the process of making our documents accessible and we’ll provide neighbor with copy and announce to the world when they are available.

d) Touch base with lawyer to ensure that the docs they give us are indeed accessible.


HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Like a a badger a HOA do not care. Your HOA has a rule of no signs other than for sale or rent. After that your asking for opinions not everyone shares. Having a sign taken down referencing troop support has not a thing to do with personal opinionion. It has to do with the rules.

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bill

Does your PM get paid for the letters it sends, fines or not?
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 01/29/2022 10:12 AM

Our bylaws and restrictions are online - in the form of crappy non-searchable, non-accessible PDF scans. Late last year we asked our lawyer to update our bylaws etc to searchable format, I don’t believe they’ve even started on the work.


Just a piece of advice. You can get a 7-day free trial to Adobe Acrobat Pro....using that, you can OCR to hearts content, organize and adjust page order, splice and extract as needed.

I did that and 'fixed' all our old crappy scans. I combined all the individual docs into a single file, added a table of contents, bookmarks, everything is word-searchable and I inserted some preamble stuff into the front of the Governing docs that outlines the hierarchy and some guidelines for conflict resolution, fraud, managing a board, etc....this was all from the firm VF-Law.

here is the preamble that I inserted into the front of our docs.
https://file.io/CS50OZxbr5j6
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- Enforce the covenant as written. No signs means no signs. I do not buy an abandonment (of covenants) argument here, because signs are easily removed, at no real cost to anyone.

-- I would not have tasked the attorney with making the governing documents "more accessible." In my opinion making the documents more accessible is something a good secretary or lower level administrator could do.

-- Specifically: Someone should re-type the documents into MS Word. On each line, make the sentences and paragraphs end exactly as they do in the original governing documents. Even if the Word document ends up looking a bit strange. The page number of any given section in the original must match the page number of any given section in the Word copy. Prominently place a header and footer on each Word page with words like the following (bolded, all caps, large-ish font) Unofficial copy. Please see original to confirm wording. What this document presents is not guaranteed for accuracy. Convert the Word documents to PDF. Send the offending owner both the searchable pdf copy and a copy of the original, near impossible to read copy. Cite the CCR the owner violated.

-- Why is the Word copy not an official copy? Because the courts say so. Too many problems may occur when some non-attentive-to-detail person re-types the original copy into word and misses something, including a mere comma, which of course sometimes is a game changer.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/29/2022 10:25 AM
Bill

Does your PM get paid for the letters it sends, fines or not?

I think they make about $2 per non-certified violation letter.

Last year, I had many issues with the previous PM, who (I believe) was using Violation letters to enhance revenue. It has proven to be extremely difficult to nail down solid proof. Not long after I got elected to the Board, previous PM left suddenly and without notice.

The new PM has (so far) taken a much lighter hand on Violations and has only handed out about 10 so far. I may be missing something, but in this current situation, I think the new PM is just trying to do their job. If I’m missing something, please let me know.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 10:36 AM
-- Enforce the covenant as written. No signs means no signs. I do not buy an abandonment (of covenants) argument here, because signs are easily removed, at no real cost to anyone.

-- I would not have tasked the attorney with making the governing documents "more accessible." In my opinion making the documents more accessible is something a good secretary or lower level administrator could do.

-- Specifically: Someone should re-type the documents into MS Word. On each line, make the sentences and paragraphs end exactly as they do in the original governing documents. Even if the Word document ends up looking a bit strange. The page number of any given section in the original must match the page number of any given section in the Word copy. Prominently place a header and footer on each Word page with words like the following (bolded, all caps, large-ish font) Unofficial copy. Please see original to confirm wording. What this document presents is not guaranteed for accuracy. Convert the Word documents to PDF. Send the offending owner both the searchable pdf copy and a copy of the original, near impossible to read copy. Cite the CCR the owner violated.

-- Why is the Word copy not an official copy? Because the courts say so. Too many problems may occur when some non-attentive-to-detail person re-types the original copy into word and misses something, including a mere comma, which of course sometimes is a game changer.

I did a PDF to MSWord conversion of our Covenants and Bylaws. It did a very good, though not perfect, conversion. I cleaned them up some and also added/noted changes we have made to the original docs. We can now easily read and search our docs.

I did put a disclaimer on the new docs saying they were a conversion and if any issues arise, the original docs (PDF) supersede the conversion.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 10:36 AM

-- I would not have tasked the attorney with making the governing documents "more accessible." In my opinion making the documents more accessible is something a good secretary or lower level administrator could do.

-- Specifically: Someone should re-type the documents into MS Word. On each line, make the sentences and paragraphs end exactly as they do in the original governing documents. Even if the Word document ends up looking a bit strange. The page number of any given section in the original must match the page number of any given section in the Word copy. Prominently place a header and footer on each Word page with words like the following (bolded, all caps, large-ish font) Unofficial copy. Please see original to confirm wording. What this document presents is not guaranteed for accuracy. Convert the Word documents to PDF. Send the offending owner both the searchable pdf copy and a copy of the original, near impossible to read copy. Cite the CCR the owner violated.

-- Why is the Word copy not an official copy? Because the courts say so. Too many problems may occur when some non-attentive-to-detail person re-types the original copy into word and misses something, including a mere comma, which of course sometimes is a game changer.

We haven’t (yet) asked our lawyer to make the document accessible - I think primarily because d’oh, we didn’t think of it. I suspect that my Board will insist on adding it to the lawyer’s task list because of “liability concerns”, ie, everyone will sleep more soundly because we paid a lawyer to do it “professionally”. I’m not disagreeing with you - I subscribe to Adobe CC (thanks Adam) and I’m confident I could do it myself - but it probably won’t fly here.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
I do not know that you have a legal obligation to make your documents accessible to the resident who is blind. Your attorney will know for sure.

I do know that our attorneys were once asked if we needed to send violation notices in the native language to homeowners who were not English speakers. The answer was no, there was no legal obligation to translate the violation notice to the desired language of the recipient.

One might extend that to blind residents as well. Again, I am not sure but your attorney will know.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 01/29/2022 11:52 AM
I suspect that my Board will insist on adding it to the lawyer’s task list because of “liability concerns”, ie, everyone will sleep more soundly because we paid a lawyer to do it “professionally”. I’m not disagreeing with you - I subscribe to Adobe CC (thanks Adam) and I’m confident I could do it myself - but it probably won’t fly here.
Maybe I am misunderstanding (or being a bit obstreperous), but --

-- I do not think either courts or attorneys (asking for governing documents) accept OCR renditions of documents.

-- One can check the net and see many Declarations that I believe an OCR converter could handle without a letter by letter, punctuation mark by punctuation mark review by a person. And I still would put the disclaimer that JohnC46 indicated on the OCR version.

-- Declarations have notations on them that are beyond an OCRs capability. E.g. the stamp from the county clerk's office and the signatures of the Declarants.

-- To say the least, I do not think an attorney has a magic wand to declare an OCR version is a lawful copy of the governing documents. A judge who received such a copy would go through the roof, IMO. It is usual for attorneys to provide a copy of the already cr-ppy copy of a hundred+ pages of CCRs.

-- I too have been through this drill. I made a proper, searchable copy of the (non-OCR-able) Bylaws in MS Word. It was a great tool.

-- I agree that, beyond providing an MS-Word-converted-to-PDF version of the governing documents with a disclaimer, a reasonable accommodation for the blind person is not possible.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 12:44 PM

-- One can check the net and see many Declarations that I believe an OCR converter could handle without a letter by letter
Post-o. Should be "could not handle without... "
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You do know your CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation are already PUBLIC documents? The HOA isn't necessarily responsible for providing them. The By-laws are the only internal HOA documents besides if you have ACC ones.

With that said someone brought up translating them to like braile or another language. That is a state law that would fall under. The official language is "English" in most of the states. That translates that all official public documents are to be in English. It would be the responsibility of the person who does not speak English to translate. Now a days the blind have computer programs that allow them to load up electronic documents to "read" them. If they can get an electronic copy then should be able to "read" them veruses using braille.

It's not a bad idea to make the documents more legible. Have found the public ones are photo-copied badly on file. However, they are the official recorded records of the HOA. You may have to ask an attorney if re-typing them counts as a need to re-filing them.

Former HOA President
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
As Board President, our PM does not send any violation letters until the Board has reviewed the issue, determined the best plan to solve it the problem and if a violation letter is to be sent, the Board will authorize the PM to send a letter and copy the Board.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 01/29/2022 4:31 PM
As Board President, our PM does not send any violation letters until the Board has reviewed the issue, determined the best plan to solve it the problem and if a violation letter is to be sent, the Board will authorize the PM to send a letter and copy the Board.

I actually favor this approach myself. But ‘my’ Board thinks that we need to leave violations to the PMC, and that any oversight from the Board leaves us open to a lawsuit for some hand-wavey notion of selective enforcement. They may even be right about this, although I suspect that the actual risk is extremely low.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 12:44 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding (or being a bit obstreperous),
.

Anything’s possible - but I appreciate all of the input y’all have provided. We’re supposed to meet with our attorney soon to discuss the status of various tasks, and I’ll be asking some worthwhile questions about the online bylaws/restrictions/etc project. Questions that I hope will lead to a better work-product. For instance: what, if any, kinds of requirements do we have to meet WRT accessibility?

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
The board has discretion, use it. I have a law enforcement background and it is a lot easier to work with the community when they respect you. If a police department starts writing tickets for going three or four miles over the speed limit, everyone knows that the speeder is wrong and the cops are doing their job but everyone will also consider it chicken sh*t and no one will respect it. It is the same with enforcing signs with no discretion. I cannot tell you where to draw the line but zero tolerance rarely works.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 01/30/2022 8:26 AM
The board has discretion, use it. I have a law enforcement background and it is a lot easier to work with the community when they respect you. If a police department starts writing tickets for going three or four miles over the speed limit, everyone knows that the speeder is wrong and the cops are doing their job but everyone will also consider it chicken sh*t and no one will respect it. It is the same with enforcing signs with no discretion. I cannot tell you where to draw the line but zero tolerance rarely works.

Thank you. I like this a lot.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
An association may not be responsible for providing docs but the better/smarter ones do.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Various thoughts:

As of September 1, 2021, HOAs in Texas that are professionally managed or have more than 60 lots must have a website with all the association's dedicatory instruments. Citation for those who are going to immediately doubt me. https://texashoalaw.com/2021-hoa-legislative-update/

Your association should have adopted a sign policy when the property code was updated in 2011 to require HOAs to allow political campaign signs. But since they apparently did not, they should do so now. You can list categories of signs that are permitted, call out what you specifically do not want (say...commercial advertising signs) and leave the rest to "must be approved by the ARC."

Now for my controversial statement: CCRS should serve the membership, not the other way around. If a majority of the membership does not care about a "go Army" sign, I think it's silly to insist on prohibiting it because "it's the rule." Change the rule to reflect the will of the membership.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 01/31/2022 8:01 AM
Various thoughts:

As of September 1, 2021, HOAs in Texas that are professionally managed or have more than 60 lots must have a website with all the association's dedicatory instruments. Citation for those who are going to immediately doubt me. https://texashoalaw.com/2021-hoa-legislative-update/

Your association should have adopted a sign policy when the property code was updated in 2011 to require HOAs to allow political campaign signs. But since they apparently did not, they should do so now. You can list categories of signs that are permitted, call out what you specifically do not want (say...commercial advertising signs) and leave the rest to "must be approved by the ARC."

Now for my controversial statement: CCRS should serve the membership, not the other way around. If a majority of the membership does not care about a "go Army" sign, I think it's silly to insist on prohibiting it because "it's the rule." Change the rule to reflect the will of the membership.

Thanks, Barbara! No doubt from me: we've got a website, it's got all of those fun documents on it. However a) they aren't accessible (they're really crappy image-scan PDFs)(even if it's not strictly required, I think accessibility is something we should do), b) our (new) lawyer has updated parts of the docs according to last year's legislation, c) our (new) lawyer has been tasked with providing new, improved, searchable versions of our documents for the website, and d) *sigh* I don't think any of the new stuff has been made available to the residents. I'm currently trying to track this down.

It makes me sad that your "controversial statement" is indeed "controversial": it seems like common sense. I won't go into the details, but we're actually trying to update our flag/signs rules to be in alignment with what the membership desires. It may be folly, but we're trying to work out a way to let everyone vote on it. It's taking 'awhile' to get it all together. As to the specific instance I wrote about above: the rest of the Board hasn't made up its mind yet. But I like what you said "Change the rule to reflect the will of the membership", and I also liked what BenA2 said (above) about "foolish consistency": "everyone will also consider it chicken sh*t and no one will respect it." Frankly, I think one of the Big Problems my neighborhood is suffering from is, in short, a lack of respect for the HOA that comes from chicken sh*t enforcement. I don't mean "respect" like "they should salute the Board" - I mean "respect" like "we're all in this together and we don't get our rocks off telling people what they can and can't do". I'm hoping we can earn that respect back *fingers crossed*.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Now do you see why HOA restrict signs? Opinions ruin everything. Keep it simple. No one needs to hear they do not "love America" because they do not have a flag or sign stating such. I told everyone that we fly under the same flag. No one is more American than anyone else because they choose to display it.

We have way too many people in my neck of the woods going to jail or prison over the capital invasion. I do not want anyone thinking I support that kind of mentality.Ho U.S.A but do not damage my own land or freedoms doing it.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
That is Go U.S.A. darn phone...

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 01/31/2022 10:35 AM

It makes me sad that your "controversial statement" is indeed "controversial": it seems like common sense. I won't go into the details, but we're actually trying to update our flag/signs rules to be in alignment with what the membership desires. It may be folly, but we're trying to work out a way to let everyone vote on it. It's taking 'awhile' to get it all together. As to the specific instance I wrote about above: the rest of the Board hasn't made up its mind yet. But I like what you said "Change the rule to reflect the will of the membership", and I also liked what BenA2 said (above) about "foolish consistency": "everyone will also consider it chicken sh*t and no one will respect it." Frankly, I think one of the Big Problems my neighborhood is suffering from is, in short, a lack of respect for the HOA that comes from chicken sh*t enforcement. I don't mean "respect" like "they should salute the Board" - I mean "respect" like "we're all in this together and we don't get our rocks off telling people what they can and can't do". I'm hoping we can earn that respect back *fingers crossed*.
BarbaraT1 posted: CCRS should serve the membership, not the other way around.To me it's not that this is controversial. It's that the courts disagree with this.

When the covenants give the Board the authority to create reasonable rules about xyz, then I agree these board-created rules should serve the membership. But for most instances* where a CCR that is disliked by many; where the CCR gives the Board no discretion; and the Board does not like a CCR; the proper approach is to seek an amendment to the CCRs.

Else for one thing, future boards may be left in conundrums.

I think there's no perfection in governing. I think it's more about striving toward the perfect.

* Not all. E.g. covenants that are facially discriminatory towards certain FHA protected groups.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our Covenants on Signs:

Section 4. Signs. No sign of any kind shall be erected by an Owner or Occupant within the Community without the prior written consent of the ACC except:

(a) professional security signs consistent with the Community-Wide Standard*
(b) any signs required by legal proceedings
(c) reasonable and appropriate signs erected by the Board
(d) builder marketing signs
(e) signs erected by Declarant.

In connection with a bona-fide offer to sell or lease a Lot or residence, one (1) professionally lettered "For Sale" or "For Rent" sign consistent with the Community-Wide Standard shall be permitted provided the sign has a maximum area of six (6) square feet and a maximum height of four (4) feet above ground level, and (ii) the content of the sign states only that the Lot or residence is "For Sale" or "For Rent" and the name and telephone number of the person to contact for additional information. "For Sale" or "For Rent" signs including any additional information shall not be permitted in the Community. Notwithstanding anything provided herein to the contrary, no sign shall be displayed on or from within any structure on a Lot.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/29/2022 11:21 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 10:36 AM
-- Enforce the covenant as written. No signs means no signs. I do not buy an abandonment (of covenants) argument here, because signs are easily removed, at no real cost to anyone.

-- I would not have tasked the attorney with making the governing documents "more accessible." In my opinion making the documents more accessible is something a good secretary or lower level administrator could do.

-- Specifically: Someone should re-type the documents into MS Word. On each line, make the sentences and paragraphs end exactly as they do in the original governing documents. Even if the Word document ends up looking a bit strange. The page number of any given section in the original must match the page number of any given section in the Word copy. Prominently place a header and footer on each Word page with words like the following (bolded, all caps, large-ish font) Unofficial copy. Please see original to confirm wording. What this document presents is not guaranteed for accuracy. Convert the Word documents to PDF. Send the offending owner both the searchable pdf copy and a copy of the original, near impossible to read copy. Cite the CCR the owner violated.

-- Why is the Word copy not an official copy? Because the courts say so. Too many problems may occur when some non-attentive-to-detail person re-types the original copy into word and misses something, including a mere comma, which of course sometimes is a game changer.


I did a PDF to MSWord conversion of our Covenants and Bylaws. It did a very good, though not perfect, conversion. I cleaned them up some and also added/noted changes we have made to the original docs. We can now easily read and search our docs.

I did put a disclaimer on the new docs saying they were a conversion and if any issues arise, the original docs (PDF) supersede the conversion.

I wish I had saved the site that I used, but I faced the same problem (non-searchable PDF files for our documents) and I used an online OCR application that transferred those documents to searchable pdf files perfectly. Page numbers, stamps, etc. all came over. Translating to WORD was not nearly as good. It would probably be best to include a disclaimer at the top explaining this was digitally copied and the actual document is available at wherever your documents are file.

If you search online for "OCR PDF Searchable" you will get several hits.

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