Mandatory Covid Shot for HOA facilities

Started by MikeF19 • 29 replies • 473 views

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MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I did a search and did not find this topic. We are an over-55 adult community in Northern California. A small group of constantly complaining residents is circulating a petition to ask our Board of Directors to adopt a policy requiring proof of Covid shots to use all common facilities and areas, including our clubhouses and sports courts, etc. I am aware of no current State or federal law requiring the Covid shots in our community. Therefore, it would only be HOA policy. But then, it seems to me would be a violation of several State and federal laws prohibiting discrimination of any group for a variety of reasons, including "medical condition." This prohibition is already in our State code (law) on Civil Rights. Yes, some employers have gotten away with requiring Covid shots for now. Many court cases are the result. In California, the schools will be trying to require the shots for children, but it hasn't made it into law yet. Regardless of how you feel about this proposal (pro or con), I'm worried it could potentially generate a substantial amount of attorneys fees and could result in lawsuits against the HOA for discrimination. This could lead to increased HOA dues to cover legal expenses. Has anyone else addressed this issue yet?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

What requirements, if any, should exist in HOA/COA common areas during this pandemic has been discussed a lot here.

Having a "medical condition" all by itself does not result in membership in a protected class. Where the medical condition puts a person squarely in the "disabled" class, then yes, the person has workplace and housing protections. But not all "medical conditions" qualify a person as "disabled."

Can a COA or HOA require vaccinations to use, say, the clubhouse? Generally, Boards are allowed to create "reasonable rules" about the use of the common areas. Nationwide during the pandemic, I believe Boards have shut down pools and clubhouses, and held meetings telephonically in violation of the covenants, and survived judicial scrutiny. All these rules seem reasonable enough (so say the courts, I believe).

What about requiring vaccinations? What if the Board says it is requiring vaccinations to prevent the Association from a lawsuit from someone who gets Covid after a party in the clubhouse? What about a claim by the Board that it does not want its valuable employees to get Covid?

The courts have said private companies can require vaccinations.

For the reasons above, I think a COA/HOA that requires vaccinations and proof thereof, to use common areas, will prevail in a court challenge.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 01/28/2022 4:28 PM

Having a "medical condition" all by itself does not result in membership in a protected class.

In California, it turns out there is more to this. Per California statute, having a medical condition in yields anti-discrimination protections in the California workplace and perhaps California housing as well. I think California law says, for one, the following:

“Medical condition” means either of the following:
(1) Any health impairment related to or associated with a diagnosis of cancer or a record or history of cancer.
(2) Genetic characteristics. For purposes of this section, “genetic characteristics” means either of the following:
(A) Any scientifically or medically identifiable gene or chromosome, or combination or alteration thereof, that is known to be a cause of a disease or disorder in a person or that person’s offspring, or that is determined to be associated with a statistically increased risk of development of a disease or disorder, and that is presently not associated with any symptoms of any disease or disorder.
(B) Inherited characteristics that may derive from the individual or family member, that are known to be a cause of a disease or disorder in a person or that person’s offspring, or that are determined to be associated with a statistically increased risk of development of a disease or disorder, and that are presently not associated with any symptoms of any disease or disorder.

But under the definition above, I do not think people who refuse the vaccine qualify as having a "medical condition."

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Are you on the board, Mike? What size is your community?

How many indoor common areas are there? What are their uses? Are your "sports courts" outdoor areas?

Does your HOA have a mask requirement?

Our 200-unit twin high rises have no vaccination requirements. We do have mask requirements for all indoor common areas except for the gym while exercising. All visitors, vendors, staff, etc. must wear masks indoors. In outdoor common areas, only the non fully (3 shots) vaxxed must wear masks. That's on the "honor system." We have loosened and tightened these rules for time to time to fit our county health guidelines. In CA, these qualify as "emergency rules" so the usual 4-day notice for board meetings to (frequently) change them don't apply.

To me, a board member for many years until a few months ago, requiring full vaxes to use the common area amenities would requite monitors to check vax cards and to have the authority to keep out non-vaxed residents. What would this look like? Your budget for '22 is already set. How would you pay for these numerous monitors? Btw, our pool and gym are open from 5a - midnight.

I'm severely immunocomped, so do not use the gym and sometimes do not get on the elevator if occupied. In your senior community there probably are many who are immunocompromised.

Another method would be to disable the fobs to the pools & gym & have a sign up sheet for every amenity with the time desired and the resident would then go to a staffer to show proof of shots before using. What a mess?!

Perhaps this "group" could bring your Board at its next open meeting a proposal about how to staff and pay for the necessary changes needed to keep non-vaxxed residents out of these areas.

Your own politics shout out when you write, Mike, "Yes, some employers have gotten away with requiring Covid shots for now..." It is their right to require these- they're not "getting away with" anything.

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Thanks for your input. Good points. I was concerned that regardless of the outcome of a court challenge the residents will pay for increased legal fees of our general counsel, wouldn't they? Or would the courts award the HOA for all their legal fees?

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Sorry for any confusion. I was replying to AugustinD.

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

KerryL1: Thank you also. You also raise good points. I wasn't trying to hide my politics. Neither did I want it to be a focus of the issue. Whether anyone is "getting away" with controlling policies is a matter of opinion. I find many policies blatantly unconstitutional and whether there is still an "emergency" is also highly debatable. So the politics of the pandemic will be debated for years, or perhaps decades in and out of court. We'll see how it goes. In 1942 many people and some courts thought Japanese internment camps were legal. I seriously doubt you could build camps and inter U.S. citizens in today's world.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Regarding the potential costs of potential litigation here:

I will assume an owner sues the HOA for prohibiting the owner from using the clubhouse and pool on account of the owner having no proof of vaccination. I will assume the owner is in good health, such that if the owner wanted a vaccination, a doctor would say, "No problem."

In my experience the HOA's insurer covering the costs of an attorney to defend the HOA in litigation is likely.

The HOA's general counsel would not at all necessarily be the one to defend the HOA in court. I would say it's even unlikely. The insurer would pick the attorney.

Would an insurer offer a settlement to the owner, to avoid the high cost of litigation? Maybe. But for a few reasons and under these circumstances, I think not. I think the insurer would say: No, no settlement offer. The stakes are too high here. The good news is the Board would certainly have a long talk with its general counsel and the insurance company about what the best choice here is, and in particular, what will best serve the HOA corporation, both in the short and long runs.

If the HOA won, could the judge order the plaintiff to pay the HOA's attorney fees? This will depend on what California statutes and the covenants say. Sometimes statutes say that the loser in certain types of litigation shall pay the winner's attorney fees. Sometimes covenants say this as well. You will want to search your CCRs for "attorney fees" "attorney's fees" and similar variations to see when an owner, who sues the HOA and loses, might have to pay the HOA's attorney fees.

If the insurer pays for the costs of the HOA's defense; the HOA wins on the main issue; but the judge does not award the HOA its attorney fees, then the HOA's insurance premiums are likely to rise in subsequent years.

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/28/2022 5:42 PM
Are you on the board, Mike? What size is your community?

How many indoor common areas are there? What are their uses? Are your "sports courts" outdoor areas?

Does your HOA have a mask requirement?

Another method would be to disable the fobs to the pools & gym & have a sign up sheet for every amenity with the time desired and the resident would then go to a staffer to show proof of shots before using. What a mess?!

Perhaps this "group" could bring your Board at its next open meeting a proposal about how to staff and pay for the necessary changes needed to keep non-vaxxed residents out of these areas.

KerryL1: We are a community of 1059 single-family homes. We have two clubhouses and outdoor bocceball, tennis, and pickleball courts. Our keyfobs were once turned off until residents signed another waiver guaranteeing we would not hold the HOA responsible for any injuries or actions connected to the pandemic or any new rules. We also have a mask requirement for indoors, which is another point of controversy when staff do not want to enforce it. We are in a more conservative county and most businesses do not enforce the mask requirements, so compliance is difficult for some staff and residents. You are correct to say, it's a mess!

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

My first blush impression is that the statute at the link below indicates that, if an owner sues the HOA as described in my post above, and the owner loses, the HOA wins an award of its attorney fees. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5975 . But I am not certain. In particular, is the HOA defending itself also an "action to enforce the governing documents"? I believe that, when it comes to attorney fees, debates over this phrase in California courts have happened.

Definitely look at the HOA's covenants and see if they say anything about an owner suing, losing, and awards of attorney fees. Declarants like to write covenants that say the owner has to pay the attorney fees if the owner sues and loses in court against the HOA.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Are you on the Board, Mike?

I guess a conservative county would have mask issues. Our HOA demographic skews conservative, but Owners are being vaxxed & boosted. I don't know if I can say the same for younger residents, who tend to be renters.

We're not seeing any resistance to masks by anyone who comes into our buildings or who lives here. Nothing messy about it. I like feeling that my neighbors are considerate & unselfish enough to wear masks and to, by & large, be vaccinated.

Good gawd, comparing vax mandates, where they exist, with the stripping of their livelihoods & incarceration of Japanese Americans in concentration camps in WWII is shudder-inducing. Shades of JFK jr.

I still think asking the pro vax-requirement group to submit a proposal to the board re: how to pay for and even find "monitors" to check vax status in your large community is a soon thing to think about.

Btw, in my urban 'hood, it's up to individual biz-owners whether they require masks for those who enter. Those folks are not '"getting away" with controlling policies..."They have choices and they have their own lives and families and workers to protect...or not. Most businesses around me are requiring masks at this moment.

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

KerryL1: Again, thank you for your input and suggestions. That's helpful. I'm not going to debate politics here. In my experience that does not change anyone's mind. The day is either partly sunny or partly cloudy and there are plenty of social media to argue that and pour gas on the fire! Good health to you!

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

If your Board of Directors actually entertain such an outlandish notion, I can't fathom the feces storm that will follow. In the past the courts have looked at common elements of a common interest community
an extension of ones home with certain caveats like non payment of assessments. To enact a mandatory vaccine mandate they are asking for some serious and costly legal bills.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 01/28/2022 8:13 PM
If your Board of Directors actually entertain such an outlandish notion, I can't fathom the feces storm that will follow. In the past the courts have looked at common elements of a common interest community
an extension of ones home with certain caveats like non payment of assessments. To enact a mandatory vaccine mandate they are asking for some serious and costly legal bills.

With a requirement to be vaccinated before using the common areas, there's no prohibition on the use of them, like there might be for non-payment of assessments. A vaccination requirement is like a rule requiring an owner and her/his guests be clothed for use of the pool and clubhouse. Plus of course the courts have found it reasonable for private companies to require that its employees be vaccinated.

The OP should be aware that, prior to anyone suing anyone else at a HOA/COA, California statutes require that the parties attempt internal dispute resolution.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

My position has reversed.

I googled on the subject of HOAs requiring vaccination. I randomly chose several sites to check out. Every single one opined that it's possible, but highly unlikely, that requiring vaccinations is lawful. Their bottom line unanimously seems to be that HOAs/COAs should not require vaccinations.

The sites give a number of reasons, but one of the leading ones seems to be that requiring proof of vaccination violates medical privacy laws. Some or all the sites speak about religious discrimination concerns. I think at least one site spoke of the concern about discriminating on the basis of "medical condition," though this may have been state specific.

After reviewing the sites, and given the medical privacy laws in particular, if I were on the OP's board and this came up, I would ask that the insurer and HOA attorney be consulted. On the basis of a strictly cold analysis of the situation, and setting aside my own opinions on what I think the law should be, I would likely end up voting against requiring vaccinations for Covid. If this were a pandemic of a different nature (like Ebola), I might vote differently.

As interested, see:
Law Firm Sites
https://sjjlawfirm.com/2021/05/06/you-cant-make-me-vaccination-considerations-for-hoa-boards-and-common-interest-communities/

https://hoalaw.tinnellylaw.com/california-is-reopening-but-what-does-that-mean-for-hoas/

https://www.atlantagaestateplanning.com/blog/2021/03/17/can-an-hoa-force-its-residents-to-get-the-covid-19-vaccine/

Insurance Company Site
https://www.kdisonline.com/can-hoa-require-covid-vaccines/

Management Company Sites
https://clarksimsonmiller.com/hoa-and-covid-19-vaccine/
https://www.hoamanagement.com/hoa-require-covid-19-vaccine/
https://luxurypropertycare.com/hoa-homeowners-getting-covid-19-vaccination/

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Augustine did some good research.

I would suggest that you explain to the group that the board simply doesn't have the authority to create such a policy under current laws and governing documents.

Suggest that they put their efforts into lobbing the State legislature to amend the laws to give such authority to Associations.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I think I'd ask about requiring a waiver where the resident would agree not to hold the HOA responsible if they use the facilities and not take precautions to reduce the risk of injury - I would argue, as some have noted, there are things people can do to at least reduce the risk of getting COVID, but refuse for whatever reason - so why should the HOA be held responsible if they get sick?

Some of these people who belabor masks, vaccines and social distancing people have an issue with contact tracing, so how do they know for certain their using a HOA facility was the problem? Considering some of the people who've barked the loudest about "mah freedumbs" are dropping like flies from - COVID, you'd think they'd figure that perhaps vaccines and masks aren't such a bad idea. They certainly don't seem to have any suggestions on how the planet or at least the USA, gets past this without vacvines, masks and social distancing. It's not like horse paste, drinking Clorox or stinking a flashlight up one's ass has done the trick.

Anyway, Augustin's suggestion on having the homeowner group do some research on how the HOA could pull this off is a great place to start. People always say the HOA board should do this or that, but never look at the logistics or the cost. If this is what want, they'll figure it out.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

I would like to add that I was concerned that this thread would turn into a debate on covid itself.

I'm very glad it didn't, and hopefully won't, go that direction.

It was a good question and there were good responses all from a business perspective.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

While I am pro-vax, I believe a BOD cannot control vax issues. Either shut the facility down for the health of all or let people do as they wish.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Where I work you have to wear a mask and have proof of vaccination. We don't have to wear the masks at our cubicles while working. Just when interacting with people. However, visitors have to show proof of vaccination or recent negative covid test in last 72 hours to enter. They do not give tests (yet). They do have actual people whom do check for this at the entrance. Any visitors I've got to let them know that rule or meet them outside if they are bringing me something.

It's still not 100% that Covid doesn't happen in our building even with those restrictions. We just had a few cases. However, they will spray and clean the area. Close it down for 24 hours. You still are subject to quarantine and/or a test if you worked close to that person(s).

Even with mandatory vaccine shot and mask wearing it still as good as it's weakest link. This case it being Covid and AIRBORNE virus. Until you can get people to understand that, all you can do is the best to stop the spread of it. Which is requesting people to be vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, not much legally can do than request.

Former HOA President

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 7:45 AM
My position has reversed.

I googled on the subject of HOAs requiring vaccination. I randomly chose several sites to check out. Every single one opined that it's possible, but highly unlikely, that requiring vaccinations is lawful. Their bottom line unanimously seems to be that HOAs/COAs should not require vaccinations.

The sites give a number of reasons, but one of the leading ones seems to be that requiring proof of vaccination violates medical privacy laws. Some or all the sites speak about religious discrimination concerns. I think at least one site spoke of the concern about discriminating on the basis of "medical condition," though this may have been state-specific.

After reviewing the sites, and given the medical privacy laws in particular, if I were on the OP's board and this came up, I would ask that the insurer and HOA attorney be consulted. On the basis of a strictly cold analysis of the situation, and setting aside my own opinions on what I think the law should be, I would likely end up voting against requiring vaccinations for Covid. If this were a pandemic of a different nature (like Ebola), I might vote differently.

AugustinD: Thanks for all the research. It raises a few points I haven't thought of and can incorporate in my comments to our Board when the proposed vaccine passport requirement gets to them. I read all the articles in your links and they were helpful, but I might contact a couple of the authors and ask them if they've revised any of their thoughts. Several of the articles were written last Spring or Summer. A lot of regulatory environments have changed in the last six months. Mr. Biden tried to declare mandatory vaccines for almost everyone and was shot down by the courts. He's had several losses. I understand some of them were for procedural or jurisdictional issues. Congress could still weigh in, but I suspect they are so dysfunctional they are unlikely to go the mandatory vaccine route. Some states prohibit mandates. The California governor seems to like all manner of government control. So the writers of these articles may think differently as well. At any rate they raise some of the concerns I had. One other caveat was that some of the writers seems to cover the same subjects almost in order, as if they simply "borrowed" info from one or more of the same articles. A little plagiarism maybe?

Wether you support the use of vaccine passports or not, the HOA must follow all the rules and procedures to adopt new rules under the CCRs. That's not a short process and I doubt it would be valid to call this an "emergency" any longer, allowing a much quicker adoption of amendments to the CCRs. I've calculated based on our county's public health department data that an estimated five (5) persons out of a population of over 50,000 in our town are currently hospitalized. Of that five, 2 to 3 persons are age 65+. Our 7-day moving average of deaths in our county is ZERO. This doesn't sound like an emergency to me.

The next issue is privacy of medical information. As much as I would like to say HOAs are subject to HIPPA, they simply are not "covered entities." Yes, the HOA would have to adopt policies and procedures to insure privacy of information, maybe in the spirit of HIPPA, but it wouldn't necessarily prevent them from requiring proof of vaccination if they really wanted to go there.

My conclusion is that this whole issue opens a can of worms. If I were a Board Member I would try to find a less complicated, less costly compromise solution to the residents' concerns and encourage people to get the shots if they so desire. That way, no one would be excluded from common facilities unless they choose for themselves that attending events in common facilities is a higher risk than not participating in common social activies. But it would be the residents' choice, not the HOA making the choice to exclude a group of residents.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

I request deletion of this thread on account of the political statements.

With apologies to MarkM19 in particular for my past transgressions.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Mike, so that other readers and I do not misunderstand, what "emergency" are you talking about with reference to amending your CC&Rs?

In CA, assn. boards may make emergency "rules" (not CC&r amendments) online if all directors consent and avoid the usual 4-days posted notice. thus our board closed our gym quite some time ago with an emergency rule. And we reopened it also with an emergency rule. That way, we did not have to wait 4 days to provide a posted agenda to re-open the gym

Your already wrote that "I'm not going to debate politics here. In my experience that does not change anyone's mind." But you did not tell the truth, Mike. You did later express your opinions about politics & policies, which are, in fact debatable. You lied to us. In my very long experience with humans, people lie when their persuasive truthful tool box is nearly empty.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MikeF19 on 01/29/2022 5:32 PM

The next issue is privacy of medical information. As much as I would like to say HOAs are subject to HIPPA, they simply are not "covered entities."

I think you miss the point about the HIPAA references. A HOA/COA's asking a person if they are vaccinated is lawful. But first, the person does not have to respond. Second, the HOA/COA has no means of ensuring that the person is telling the truth.

The little vaccination card that many of us have is easily forged. Calling the person's physician or the entity that administered the vaccination will go nowhere. This is because of HIPAA.

I am pretty sure you got the answer you wanted: The HOA/COA should not require (attempt to require, really) vaccinations. You could have gotten it simply by googling.

The reason I believe all the sites I linked are credible is because they all talk about other requirements that the authors believe a HOA/COA can lawfully impose. Like masking and social distancing. That they make an exception for requiring vaccinations to me demonstrates having put a lot of thought or research into this.

I could be mistaken, but I had an eye on the management sites as I was wondering if these sites in particular were circulating the same material. They are different enough that I do not think one site is borrowing from another.

MikeF19 (California)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/29/2022 7:34 PM
Mike, so that other readers and I do not misunderstand, what "emergency" are you talking about with reference to amending your CC&Rs?

In CA, assn. boards may make emergency "rules" (not CC&r amendments) online if all directors consent and avoid the usual 4-days posted notice. thus our board closed our gym quite some time ago with an emergency rule. And we reopened it also with an emergency rule. That way, we did not have to wait 4 days to provide a posted agenda to re-open the gym

Your already wrote that "I'm not going to debate politics here. In my experience that does not change anyone's mind." But you did not tell the truth, Mike. You did later express your opinions about politics & policies, which are, in fact debatable. You lied to us. In my very long experience with humans, people lie when their persuasive truthful tool box is nearly empty.

KerryL1: You are correct. I misspoke. The “emergency” I was referencing in regards to rules changes is in our Association Bylaws, not the CCRs. Please excuse my error in referring to the CCRs. And I’ll concede I could have explained my use of the word emergency better. Our Bylaws state, “The Board shall provide written notice of a proposed rule change to the Members at least thirty (30) days before making the rule change. . . . Notice is not required under this Article if the Board determines that an immediate rule change is necessary to address an imminent threat to public health or safety or imminent risk of substantial economic loss to the Master Association; and in such event, the Board may make an emergency rule change.” It goes on to say an emergency rule can only be effective for 120 days unless the Board chooses a shorter effective period. I’m told by others in our community that this is a fairly standard provision for HOAs, although the wording may vary.

This is the emergency I was referring to. I also provided some health department data on hospitalizations in our county to provide context for our situation here and the proposed rule change. The data indicates that hospitalizations and deaths in our county are extremely low and deaths are essentially zero. And before you jump on me again, that’s not to minimize the tragedy of any person’s death. So the statement I made, “This doesn’t sound like an emergency to me,” was an opinion based on the government data and not a political statement.

Now let’s talk about your inflammatory statement accusing me of lying to everyone. All I can say is, Wow! I was hoping for more civility and intelligence in this forum. I hope I wasn’t wrong. You tried to bait me earlier in this discussion and I stated, “I’m not going to debate politics here.” That is a 100% truthful statement. I think you need to examine and study the definitions of “debate” and “lie” or “lying.” The word debate refers to a process of discourse on a particular topic in which arguments are put forth, usually in support (or opposition) of opposing viewpoints. I said I didn’t want to debate politics, i.e., mandatory vaccines or Democrat/Republican policies. The purpose of the post was to explore how other HOAs are dealing with the issue of “vaccine passports” to use the common facilities. That doesn’t mean that I’m barred from voicing an opinion or mentioning a politician when it adds context to the discussion of HOA issues. You certainly have the right to disagree with me, but you don’t object to a particular thing I said or explain exactly why you think I lied. You simply threw your spears at me. I can only guess what triggered you. It’s fine to disagree with me. Just provide your comment and explain why you think differently. I never said you couldn’t do that.

You seem to be looking for a boogie man under every bed. You should be more careful with your rhetoric. Accusing someone of lying or being a liar are fighting words. I wonder if you’re so comfortable condemning someone because we’re on a social media platform. I wonder if you’d have the courage to accuse me of lying face-to-face. You don't know me or know my intent. Do you even know what a lie is? Perhaps the article in the following link will enlighten you.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-nature-deception/201905/what-is-lie
As far as lying goes, I was not trying to deceive you or manipulate you, therefore it’s not a lie. I was merely trying to focus the discussion on HOA rules and regulations when you seemed to want to argue about politics.

You strike me as one of those people who thinks they are right all the time, and therefore you’ve earned the right to castigate anyone else who says something you don’t like. That’s trying to intimidate or bully people and it’s just sad. I’d like to think you’re a better person than that. Maybe what we need is a beer summit. I’m quite sure we could find some common ground.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 01/29/2022 6:53 AM

As you stated employees, that is one thing, not residents. The US Supreme Court just shot down forced vaccine mandates. To require all residents or visitors, that is a whole different ballgame. I am not anti fax, I am anti mandate.
We are entering the endemic phase of this feces show. By summer mask mandates will be at a far distance in the rearview mirror. We have already been told by our insure and council that the bar is set very high
for someone to bring a lawsuit against the HOA if they get sick from covid. Typically no lawyer will start litigation against another person or entity unless they lay down some serious retainer in advance.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It is not truthful to present one side of a strong political opinion as if the points(s) are not debatable and pretend you do not want to debate. That Congress is "dysfunctional" and that the CA governor "seems to like all manner of control" are political segments that are debatable. Talk about "bait."

To hint that Augustin's sources might be plagiarized or plagiarizing is debatable and also insults Augustin's ability to provide good references to posters here.

In CA, HOA attorneys have agreed that during the Covid "period" if you prefer that language, HOA Boards may bypass the state mandated 28-day comment period by Owners to make/change rules. This means an HOA's Bylaws also can be bypassed. I gave you our gym example. Because Covid was considered an emergency, our Board was allowed to quickly make a rule temporarily closing the gym. And just as quickly make rules reopening it some weeks later. These must be ratified at the next one board meetings and entered into the minutes. The 110 days do apply.

If you actually are interested in HOA governance, visit Davis-stirling.com to see these CA HOA attorneys' encyclopedic approach to everything HOA in CA. Watch out, though! The first author of the Davis Stirling Act (not the website) is the former "liberal" governor of CA, so he probably wanted to overly-regulate homowners in CA HOAs and take away their freedoms and liberty.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

LetA, are you, or are you not, aware that there are many who feel quite differently from you about the pandemic?

Do comments by people who feel differently from you about the pandemic bother you?

I believe the last two years have been difficult for everyone. You may think it's over, but the signs to many of us are that it is not.

Can you please do me, and I expect maybe others, the courtesy of stopping the use of your inflammatory language?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I like Sheila's suggestion of requiring a signed waiver in place of vaccine mandates. Regardless of the politics, there are some folks who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (severe allergies, for example). Requiring a waiver could offer some liability protection for the association and could fall under the "duty of care" obligations for board members.

Come to think of it, you should probably require such a waiver regardless of covid, especially if the facilities have exercise equipment.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

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Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 01/31/2022 8:06 AM
I like Sheila's suggestion of requiring a signed waiver in place of vaccine mandates. Regardless of the politics, there are some folks who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (severe allergies, for example). Requiring a waiver could offer some liability protection for the association and could fall under the "duty of care" obligations for board members.

Come to think of it, you should probably require such a waiver regardless of covid, especially if the facilities have exercise equipment.

Yup, that's where I was going with this. If someone rented out the clubhouse for an event, for example, I personally would try to address safety, such as stating everyone has to wear a mask until the food is served and set up the room for social distancing (my niece and her fiance are taking similar precautions for their wedding this summer). The person holding the event should be responsible for establishing protocols so he/she can at least try to prevent a superspreader event - those who don't, well, that's the risk they take.

As for the HOA, I hope 2022 budgets are allowing for deep cleaning of areas like a clubhouse or fitness area between use - if there's no money in the budget or homeowners don't want to pay, go to the waiver or limit hours (or shut it down altogether until the COVID numbers improve in the county). For renting facilities, I might adjust the rental fee to pay for the deep cleaning between events.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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