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LenC (Washington)
Posts: 2
Posted:
In our documents it is unclear, it talks about a quorum required for certain business at annual meetings, but doesn't mention election of new board members, and that part is separate and doesn't state whether a quorum is required. But the board is basically saying that some of them are several years past the rules and regulations dictated three year terms. What they're clarifying when I asked is that if no quorum, it’s not possible to hold an election in any other way, and the only way a board changes with no quorum, despite term lengths, is if someone steps down. Is that true in Washington State? I mean there's no other way even if someone has been 7 years past their term unless they step down or if there's a quorum and someone runs?
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LenC on 01/26/2022 10:13 AM
In our documents it is unclear, it talks about a quorum required for certain business at annual meetings, but doesn't mention election of new board members, and that part is separate and doesn't state whether a quorum is required. But the board is basically saying that some of them are several years past the rules and regulations dictated three year terms. What they're clarifying when I asked is that if no quorum, it’s not possible to hold an election in any other way, and the only way a board changes with no quorum, despite term lengths, is if someone steps down. Is that true in Washington State? I mean there's no other way even if someone has been 7 years past their term unless they step down or if there's a quorum and someone runs?

This is a little confusing but generally the answer is yes.

You can only elect directors (new board members) at meetings where quorum is met. If quorum is not met, the existing directors stay on until a meeting is held where quorum is met and new directors elected.

If one steps down, generally the remaining board members can appoint a new board member to be part of the board until the remainder of the election.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Usually, board elections are held at the same time as the annual meeting. You said your documents call for a quorum to do certain business at annual meetings – reread that part again to ensure it doesn’t say anything about elections. Some documents are badly written (especially when it’s in legalese) and whoever wrote this might have included that, but it’s hard to tell.

If that part of the document doesn’t specify elections as requiring quorums, nor is it mentioned when discussing new board members (also strange), I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this as part of the annual meeting. Many of these meetings are done around the first part of the year (my community is having one in two weeks), and it makes sense to have a certain percentage of homeowners to participate.

You also say some of the board members are past the required three year terms, but that’s not the same as saying term limits. Were any of the current board members appointed to replace someone who stepped down? If so, that person serves until the end of the term and can either run to be elected or be voted out or step down voluntarily – whoever wins that seat starts the clock over. If there was no quorum when that time came up, the board member will serve until voted out (or recalled) or steps down.

You probably need an election AND a quorum), so the first task is go back and see who was elected or appointed when and what happened the last time there was an election. You should have some annual meeting minutes to this effect and/or board meetings noting when someone was appointed – go back seven years, if necessary, if the board members can’t remember (or are forgetting on purpose).

If it’s been several years, the homeowners are responsible for that – someone should have pushed for an election. If everyone’s been on the board for say, 7 years, it might be easier to put all of them up for election and then people can decide if they should continue or if new blood is needed. Use the quorum percentage stated in your documents for now – after the election, the board could have the association attorney take a look and see if something should be amended to make the requirements clear. Of course, that will likely require homeowner approval, so be sure to read that part of the documents so you’ll do it properly.

PS – your question was really hard to read – please use shorter paragraphs next time!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Len

Typically BOD Elections are held as part of the Annual Meeting. In order for Business to be done (including elections), there must be a Quorum. No Quorum it became a chit shooting session. Nothing more.

Though not asked, if you are involved, look at having staggered terms such As A BOD of 5, two year terms, 3 terms expire one year, two terms expire the next year. This keeps people on the BOD that know how things are done. Often called Corporate Memory.
LenC (Washington)
Posts: 2
Posted:
SheliaH: In summary, we never get quorum, and for example one board member has been on for over 10 years and never steps down. The question is really, is quorum really necessary to hold an election, or are there other ways (not counting people stepping down and appointments).
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LenC on 01/26/2022 12:44 PM
SheliaH: In summary, we never get quorum, and for example one board member has been on for over 10 years and never steps down. The question is really, is quorum really necessary to hold an election, or are there other ways (not counting people stepping down and appointments).

LenC,

-- if your governing documents and state law say a quorum is required to conduct business and/or run elections, then your HOA/COA is stuck with it.

-- Bear in mind that many think a fair interpretation of failure to attain quorum is that those who did not show up (in person or by proxy) at the annual meeting are satisfied with the status quo. Despite their non-participation in the meeting, their absence is a de facto vote in favor of the current Board.

-- To achieve quorum in the future, the best approach is to go door-to-door and collect proxies. A Board that wants people to replace it would do well to advertise the problems with quorum. If there are people ready and willing to replace those on the board, they should be willing to collect proxies.

-- Is this a condominium?

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LenC on 01/26/2022 12:44 PM
SheliaH: In summary, we never get quorum, and for example one board member has been on for over 10 years and never steps down. The question is really, is quorum really necessary to hold an election, or are there other ways (not counting people stepping down and appointments).

Quorum is needed for elections, but there are ways of getting it besides getting people to meetings. I can explain, but only if you want clarification on other ways of getting quorum.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Without Proxies we would not reach a Quorum. The key is collecting Proxies.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/27/2022 12:20 PM
Without Proxies we would not reach a Quorum. The key is collecting Proxies.

In Washington, which is the OPs state, one can hold an absentee ballot (vote by mail / electronic form / etc) and every vote counts toward quorum. We just did that and 31% of the community voted ahead of time which meant that we had quorum prior to the meeting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
As Henry has stated elsewhere, WA now permits absentee voting. Since that statute was instituted in CA in 2006, no one in our HOA never uses proxies and quorum is never a problem.

Henry-- you did state that, right? Or owners can vote electronically?
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/27/2022 12:25 PM
As Henry has stated elsewhere, WA now permits absentee voting. Since that statute was instituted in CA in 2006, no one in our HOA never uses proxies and quorum is never a problem.

Henry-- you did state that, right? Or owners can vote electronically?

We devised an electronic voting mechanism this year and received no complaints from homeowners. When voting, homeowners had to provide two pieces of information. One is public knowledge (their name) and the other is private data (their account number). Both pieces of information were mailed to them, and everyone used the information on the mailing to fill out the ballot.

Since the account number was known only to them, we have confidence that neighbors were not voting for other neighbors, etc.

I'm not 100% sure our attorneys would agree that our method would hold up in court. All they said during Q&A sessions was that an electronic system has to authenticate that a person eligible to vote cast the vote. In my mind, our system was reasonable and made it much easier to vote than signing a document, taking a picture of it, and e-mailing to the property manager. I feel comfortable enough about our system to say that what we are doing is a reasonable decision from a volunteer board, and can say with confidence that there were no shennegians conducted during this year's election.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 01/27/2022 12:31 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/27/2022 12:25 PM
As Henry has stated elsewhere, WA now permits absentee voting. Since that statute was instituted in CA in 2006, no one in our HOA never uses proxies and quorum is never a problem.

Henry-- you did state that, right? Or owners can vote electronically?


We devised an electronic voting mechanism this year and received no complaints from homeowners. When voting, homeowners had to provide two pieces of information. One is public knowledge (their name) and the other is private data (their account number). Both pieces of information were mailed to them, and everyone used the information on the mailing to fill out the ballot.

Since the account number was known only to them, we have confidence that neighbors were not voting for other neighbors, etc.

I'm not 100% sure our attorneys would agree that our method would hold up in court. All they said during Q&A sessions was that an electronic system has to authenticate that a person eligible to vote cast the vote. In my mind, our system was reasonable and made it much easier to vote than signing a document, taking a picture of it, and e-mailing to the property manager. I feel comfortable enough about our system to say that what we are doing is a reasonable decision from a volunteer board, and can say with confidence that there were no shennegians conducted during this year's election.

In case it wasn't clear, we still enclosed paper ballots, and encouraged homeowners to vote however worked best for them. While the majority of the votes were electronic, some were pictures of the ballot e-mailed to the property manager, and one was mailed in. Any method was fine for us.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
This is all very good info for Len, Henry.

In Ca, we have to use secret ballots so some of your methods wouldn't work here. Since you'r not ocmeltely sure if the methods you used were totally stationed Len should check with his HOA attorney.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/27/2022 2:08 PM
This is all very good info for Len, Henry.

In Ca, we have to use secret ballots so some of your methods wouldn't work here. Since you'r not ocmeltely sure if the methods you used were totally stationed Len should check with his HOA attorney.

It's fine if Len wanted to check with the HOA attorney, but my experience is that the law firm that we work with is slightly more conservative than practical for running a volunteer organization. The electronic election that we ran worked just fine and I'd be happy to testify in front a judge as to why it met state requirements, but our conservative attorney may not think that it's a great system. But ultimately we are a volunteer board and do the best that we can.

Another example of a conservative attorney is that our attorney wants us to make ACC decisions at Board meetings, which are once per month. This means it might be up to 5 weeks to get approval. Homeowners are constantly complaining that our ACC decisions take too long (they want one to two week turnaround). Our property manager is encouraging us to listen to the homeowners while I am listening to the conservative attorneys....difficulties!
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 01/28/2022 4:43 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/27/2022 2:08 PM
This is all very good info for Len, Henry.

In Ca, we have to use secret ballots so some of your methods wouldn't work here. Since you'r not ocmeltely sure if the methods you used were totally stationed Len should check with his HOA attorney.


It's fine if Len wanted to check with the HOA attorney, but my experience is that the law firm that we work with is slightly more conservative than practical for running a volunteer organization. The electronic election that we ran worked just fine and I'd be happy to testify in front a judge as to why it met state requirements, but our conservative attorney may not think that it's a great system. But ultimately we are a volunteer board and do the best that we can.

Another example of a conservative attorney is that our attorney wants us to make ACC decisions at Board meetings, which are once per month. This means it might be up to 5 weeks to get approval. Homeowners are constantly complaining that our ACC decisions take too long (they want one to two week turnaround). Our property manager is encouraging us to listen to the homeowners while I am listening to the conservative attorneys....difficulties!



In our community, we tell homeowners to give the exterior change request process 45 days - and NOT to start the project until they get written approval. It's a matter of timing - the board meets on the third Wednesday of the month, so people can look at the calendar and time their submission so that the board will have it be then. If they don't want to use snail mail, they can email the request to the property manager. When I was on the board, we'd look at the requests (didn't get very many) and if the homeowner included all the information we needed, we'd make a decision and the property manager would send out the letter - the homeowner would get it within a week or so.

I seem to recall you're in a large community, so having an ACC committee might help (you just have to find some volunteers). They would review the requests and make a recommendation to the board, who can vote on them at the next meeting. It should be the homeowner's responsibility to make sure the committee and the board have all the information they need to make a decision - if something's missing or unclear, they need to fix it and of course that will add to the processing time. The board still has the right to send the request back to the committee, saying something like X isn't clear, so we need more information before approving this. Homeowners would still have the right to appeal a denial and that can be done at a special meeting between board meetings (make it executive session exclusively for this).

Having design standards might also cut the processing time. If you know the standards call for, say, a 4 foot fence around the backyard only, made of vinyl with approved colors of white, beige or gray, I would hope the homeowners would know not to submit something that's 6 feet tall made of wood. We encouraged homeowners to send us illustrations of what they wanted to do - half the time, the colors, materials, etc. would be listed on the vendor's invoice so all they had to do was attach that to the request form.

Back to Len's question - if you don't have a quorum at your annual meeting, you should consider using proxies, as some have suggested. In our community, we use them to (1) help establish quorum (2) nominate themselves or someone else to serve on the board and (3) appoint someone to attend the meeting and vote on their behalf. If they don't name anyone, the board president will cast the vote (if he/she isn't running). Talk to your attorney to see if this could be a possibility and encourage the homeowners to participate by either sending a proxy or showing up. The reason you have board members for 7 or 10 years is because the HOMEOWNERS haven't done their job in participating in the election. Why else do some get the notion they can do whatever - after all, who's stopping them?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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