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GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Hi all! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I'm in Baltimore County, Maryland. I became the president of my community's HOA board about 9 months ago. We are a small community of just 74 homes. Unfortunately, one of them belongs to an absentee owner/landlord. He is unresponsive to our attempts to contact him, he hasn't paid his HOA dues in 3+ years (we are presently filing suit), and to top it all off his tenants are apparently serious criminals. A few mornings ago the home was raided by the FBI, the second time that has happened. The entire community is obviously concerned from a safety standpoint, with the FBI involved it must be something pretty serious. Many of voiced to me this week that they are very afraid, especially those who have children. And of course many are also concerned from a property value standpoint. Who wants to live in a neighborhood where the FBI is raiding someone's home every few months?

My question is, what can my board and I, and our community as a whole, do about this property? Of course like I said we are in proceedings over the unpaid dues, but is there anything else we can do beyond that? I've been known for getting things done in my 9 months as president, and getting something done with this property is the number one thing on my list currently. I've had a couple of other owner's in the community voice interest in purchasing the property if the owner can be persuaded to sell, but of course that requires communicating with him which we are unable to do.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
You say the owner doesn't respond.
Are you positive you have the correct address for them?

Honestly, and it should have happened 2 years ago, you need to go through the process of filing a lien and then foreclosing on the lien.

This, I think, is your best option.
Tell the attorney to fast track the process as much as possible.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Agree with Tim.

In addition, if permitted in MD, see if there's a way that the Assn. can evict the tenants. We're restating our CC&Rs and one change is that the Assn. has the right to evict tenants. Your HOA attorney will know.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Have you asked your attorney If he or she has checked if the house has a mortgage? If not, and the attorney finds there is one, see if you can contact the bank about the unpaid assessr. Buried somewhere In the mortgage agreement should be language where the buyer promises not to do something that would result In a lien against the property.

You should already know if the association has a right to pursue foreclosure for failing to pay assessments and filing a lien should result in the bank being contacted automatically. They might pay the assessments and tack that into the balance. In your lien, he sure to include all legal expenses incurred in pursuing the debt.

That may or may not take care of the assessments, but that FBI raid is more concerning. Not only because of possible safety issues, but if the feds are involved, this owner could be facing federal charges of some sort. That may ultimately result in the IRS getting involved, and they ALWAYS get what's owed. To do that, they may grab the house and at that point, the association may be SOL. The owner could still be pursued for what he or she owes you, but by then it may be a lost cause. Especially if the owner lands in jail.

You could try to contact local police to see if they have any info on what the CHI is doing, but you might not get any information if there's a pending investigation. On the other hand the failure to pay assessments might be a tidbit of information that could help that case, so someone may be willing to listen to what you have to say

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Very good advice Tim.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I agree with the advice to lien and then pursue foreclosure. It's easier to foreclose on properties whose owner has ceased paying assessments altogether - occasional or partial payments can be viewed by a court as the owner attempting to get current on his account.

Talk to your HOA's attorney - they should be able to locate the owner so that you can send the necessary legal notifications to get the ball rolling. You may also want to ask about homeowners interested in purchasing the house. My sense is that this could muddy the waters and that a court could interpret this as the HOA trying to pull a fast one. I suggest that the board maintain their impartiality and let interested buyers go through the normal auction procedures.

(Usual disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.)
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
First do NOT file a lawsuit. Bad idea. 2nd the HOA does NOT want to own this home. So don't go down that rabbit hole of dreaming what your HOA could do with that house. That will be a mistake. Take Tim's advice and Lien then foreclose. Make sure you have located the correct owner. Taxes and death are assured in life. Go to the Tax Assessor's office with the lot # of the property to see who is on the title.

Serve notices to BOTH locations. Many here may argue with me on this. Remember you are foreclosing/liening on the HOA property. Hence that is the address you should be referring to. This includes certified letters to show they go unanswered. Never ever open if returned. You can also send a notice to the owner's OTHER address of course. Just make sure the HOA address is covered first and foremost.

File the lien first. Give it some time to set in. The person may respond once finds out it's got a lien on it. They can't sell it if it does. I usually give it a year before going for a foreclosure process. Which ONLY gets the money back that is owed. It is NOT a profit. It also get rid of the owner. However, there is a right of redemption that varies in each state. Which means the owner can re-purchase the house if they catch up on everything they owe up to a year. Some states it is 0 months and others 12. Keep this in mind as the house could be left empty and untouched during this time even by the new owners.

You also need to check with your city to see if they have laws about this situation. If it was used for drug sales, they could have a policy to condemn the home. Which will throw a wrench into your HOA's efforts. My brother's city if someone is caught dealing drugs, the house is condemned by the city. A consideration need to factor in.

Talke to a lawyer about this. It doesn't have to be a HOA lawyer. It can be a lawyer like Real Estate one or one that is familiar with foreclosure process. There are more steps involved they need to advise you on. Again don't even think about the HOA owning this house. It's okay if someone else in the HOA wants to buy it as it is a PUBLIC sale. Just don't let the HOA bet that.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/22/2022 8:13 AM

Talke to a lawyer about this. It doesn't have to be a HOA lawyer. It can be a lawyer like Real Estate one or one that is familiar with foreclosure process. There are more steps involved they need to advise you on.

The most important part of Melissa's posting, in my opinion.

Depending on local laws, you may need to file a law suit to foreclose.
Failure to serve proper notice, cross all the Ts and dot all the Is can negate the foreclosure process.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Thanks everyone for all of the great advice, I deeply appreciate it. We do have two addresses for this owner, both of which the attorney found and believes are accurate.

Reviewing the records from the attorney, I see that this owner was sent Notice of Intent to create Lien back during the summer, twice, and both went without response. The lien was recorded in October, and since then the attorney has recommended "resting on the lien". I'm not proficient in legalese, can someone tell me what that means? On the advice of Tim, I've told the attorney that I want him to fast track the process and move to foreclose as quickly as he can. There has been no payment or even contact with the owner, nor from the bank (the house does have a mortgage) so the time for playing games has passed.

To the person who suggested eviction, I don't think that's permitted here, but I'll ask the attorney to make sure.

On the advice of SheilaH I did reach out to the PD to see what they could tell me, and all they could say was that a warrant was executed and it is an ongoing investigation.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- From studying the use of this phrase, I think "resting on the lien" here means "rely on the lien, and the lien alone, as a means of ensuring the debt is paid." In other words, I think this attorney does not want to foreclose on the lien at this time. The attorney is likely drawing on experience when he/she gives this advice. Of course, you should get some clarification on this from the attorney. If you have not already, then you should also explain to the attorney the situation with the bad tenants and see if this changes his/her thinking. I think it's not easy (for the owner here) to throw out tenants in this climate, even jerks like the ones currently residing at this house. It's a legal mine field? Does your HOA want to spend every dollar exploring here? Sometimes there is much to recommend letting things develop?

-- I hope you took a board vote prior to directing the attorney to foreclose a.s.a.p.

-- Regarding addresses: I believe corporate and collections case law says the burden of providing the correct address here is on the owner. All the HOA corporation has to do is mail lawsuit documents et cetera to the address it has on record for the owner. Granted judges will be generous for awhile when a defendant appears not to have been reached or perhaps properly served with lawsuit papers, despite the best efforts of a plaintiff.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/22/2022 11:20 AM
-- I think it's not easy (for the owner here) to throw out tenants in this climate, even jerks like the ones currently residing at this house. It's a legal mine field?

I was agreeing with what you were saying until I reached this point. Let's be clear here, jerks is not the word. Criminals. We're talking murderers, druggies, and other things. Obviously the FBI being involved illustrates the severity of the situation. I think your being just a tad too kind here.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 11:49 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/22/2022 11:20 AM
-- I think it's not easy (for the owner here) to throw out tenants in this climate, even jerks like the ones currently residing at this house. It's a legal mine field?


I was agreeing with what you were saying until I reached this point. Let's be clear here, jerks is not the word. Criminals. We're talking murderers, druggies, and other things. Obviously the FBI being involved illustrates the severity of the situation. I think your being just a tad too kind here.
Your referring to these tenants as criminals was indeed on my mind and why I used softer language.

Has there been a conviction of any of these tenants? If not, here's my concern:

More and more Fair Housing law is addressing the rights of felons to not be discriminated against. This is because the prisons are top-heavy with groups that have been historically oppressed in housing on account of their race. Fair Housing law prohibits discriminating against someone because of their race. For good or bad, HUD has staked out a position that this means the rights of felons need to be protected.

You do not want these tenants to, say, be acquitted of criminal charges and then have the owner or the tenants come after you because you claimed they were criminals. Or, even worse, if these folks are ____, and you have accused them of being criminal, would they turn around and say you were making the environment hostile to them on the basis of ____ (fill in the blank with one of the several protected classes under Fair Housing law).

If I were the HOA president-director, I would want a rock solid case if and when there is legal action by the HOA. In my opinion, and to give the HOA the best chances of prevailing, the Board needs to stick with the facts it knows. Namely, the owner is behind on assessments owed. The owner under the law needs to pay up. If this just happens to end up with the tenants having to move, oh well. But so far, what the HOA does with regard to the owner should IMO have nothing to do with the alleged criminal activity of the tenants.

Go ahead and vent here, of course. But I do not support going on and on about the tenants when the HOA's only firm legal position at this point rests on the HOA's relationship with the owner.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Oh goodness, I see what this is. Moving on…
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 10:44 AM

On the advice of Tim, I've told the attorney that I want him to fast track the process and move to foreclose as quickly as he can. There has been no payment or even contact with the owner, nor from the bank (the house does have a mortgage) so the time for playing games has passed.

I expect you did this with the permission of the board.

Additionally, you need to create a policy to prevent this in the future.

For example:

Our policy is an annual assessment. Members may pay monthly.

30 days late - letter sent
60 days late - letter sent
90 days late - certified letter sent
120 days late - certified letter sent informing that monthly payments are accelerated (full amount due). Issue sent to attorney for action, lien and potential foreclosure. All legal fees are paid by member.

The issue is then in the hands of the attorney with guidance from the board.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 10:44 AM
Thanks everyone for all of the great advice, I deeply appreciate it. We do have two addresses for this owner, both of which the attorney found and believes are accurate.

Reviewing the records from the attorney, I see that this owner was sent Notice of Intent to create Lien back during the summer, twice, and both went without response. The lien was recorded in October, and since then the attorney has recommended "resting on the lien". I'm not proficient in legalese, can someone tell me what that means? On the advice of Tim, I've told the attorney that I want him to fast track the process and move to foreclose as quickly as he can. There has been no payment or even contact with the owner, nor from the bank (the house does have a mortgage) so the time for playing games has passed.

To the person who suggested eviction, I don't think that's permitted here, but I'll ask the attorney to make sure.

On the advice of SheilaH I did reach out to the PD to see what they could tell me, and all they could say was that a warrant was executed and it is an ongoing investigation.

Yeah, I figured that's what you'd hear. Get comfy - these ongoing investigations can take months before charges are filed and even longer before the criminal prosecution ends. If the FBI is involved, there are likely some state charges in the works as well - usually the feds get in its 40 whacks (unless the defendants see the light and take a plea deal) and then the state does its 41.

Tell your attorney to keep a close eye on the status of that house - it's good you have a lien, but remember taxes and the mortgage company will trump it unless you live in a state with a super lien law. Talk to your attorney for more information.

As for your "I see where this is headed" regarding AugustinD's comment, I hope you aren't trying to imply you may be stuck with these tenants because they're in a certain protected class. It's possible for several things to be true at the same time. Yes, the tenants may be jerks and it's also true that there has been (and still is) history of housing discrimination, and so those protections are necessary.

To be blunt, your primary beef is with the owner-landlord because you usually don't get tenants from the 9th circle of hell unless the owner rents to them because he/she only cares about the check clearing. Believe me, I've seen it time and time again in my townhouse community.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/22/2022 2:21 PM
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 10:44 AM

On the advice of Tim, I've told the attorney that I want him to fast track the process and move to foreclose as quickly as he can. There has been no payment or even contact with the owner, nor from the bank (the house does have a mortgage) so the time for playing games has passed.


I expect you did this with the permission of the board.

Additionally, you need to create a policy to prevent this in the future.

For example:

Our policy is an annual assessment. Members may pay monthly.

30 days late - letter sent
60 days late - letter sent
90 days late - certified letter sent
120 days late - certified letter sent informing that monthly payments are accelerated (full amount due). Issue sent to attorney for action, lien and potential foreclosure. All legal fees are paid by member.

The issue is then in the hands of the attorney with guidance from the board.

We already have such policies. I’m more concerned about why they weren’t followed by previous boards and attorney’s. Unfortunately I was brought in under emergency circumstances, and prior to me the Association was run very poorly and there are very few records of anything. Frankly, I inherited a mess.

And yes, I have the approval of the board.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 01/22/2022 3:18 PM

As for your "I see where this is headed" regarding AugustinD's comment, I hope you aren't trying to imply you may be stuck with these tenants because they're in a certain protected class.
I am pretty sure the OP was telling me, in so many words, to "Shut. Up.", because he does not want these ne'er-do-wells in his 'hood; nobody else does either; and when he says they're crooks (based on the FBI raids), I ought to believe him.

I do believe him. I would want these people gone too.

I will now shaddup.

GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/22/2022 3:27 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 01/22/2022 3:18 PM

As for your "I see where this is headed" regarding AugustinD's comment, I hope you aren't trying to imply you may be stuck with these tenants because they're in a certain protected class.
I am pretty sure the OP was telling me, in so many words, to "Shut. Up.", because he does not want these ne'er-do-wells in his 'hood; nobody else does either; and when he says they're crooks (based on the FBI raids), I ought to believe him.

I do believe him. I would want these people gone too.

I will now shaddup.


Since there seems to be confusion regarding my comment...my comment was not meant to communicate either of these messages, although it does encompass a little but of both. AAugustinD seeems to be approaching this from a standpoint of protecting the criminal rather than my community. That's not a standpoint I share. These people have literally shot someone dead. They are associated with drug crimes. They have a very long rap sheet. I'm not throwing accusations around, these are convicted criminals. Dangerous convicted criminals. Worse yet, the owner of the property is well aware of this and rents to these people. Shows where his priorities are. My only concern is making sure no one in this neighborhood gets hurt or worse.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You can not control renters in a HOA. only the owners. That's all.

Former HOA President
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 4:19 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/22/2022 3:27 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 01/22/2022 3:18 PM

As for your "I see where this is headed" regarding AugustinD's comment, I hope you aren't trying to imply you may be stuck with these tenants because they're in a certain protected class.
I am pretty sure the OP was telling me, in so many words, to "Shut. Up.", because he does not want these ne'er-do-wells in his 'hood; nobody else does either; and when he says they're crooks (based on the FBI raids), I ought to believe him.

I do believe him. I would want these people gone too.

I will now shaddup.



Since there seems to be confusion regarding my comment...my comment was not meant to communicate either of these messages, although it does encompass a little but of both. AAugustinD seeems to be approaching this from a standpoint of protecting the criminal rather than my community. That's not a standpoint I share. These people have literally shot someone dead. They are associated with drug crimes. They have a very long rap sheet. I'm not throwing accusations around, these are convicted criminals. Dangerous convicted criminals. Worse yet, the owner of the property is well aware of this and rents to these people. Shows where his priorities are. My only concern is making sure no one in this neighborhood gets hurt or worse.

Maybe you don't know the answer but why aren't convicted criminals in prison? I am just curious. I don't have anything to add about collecting assessments from the landlord owner. The lien and foreclosure seems like the way to handle that part of your dilemma. Can the HOA hire private security to patrol your neighborhood? It may offer you a level of comfort.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BancsS on 01/22/2022 4:40 PM
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 4:19 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/22/2022 3:27 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 01/22/2022 3:18 PM

As for your "I see where this is headed" regarding AugustinD's comment, I hope you aren't trying to imply you may be stuck with these tenants because they're in a certain protected class.
I am pretty sure the OP was telling me, in so many words, to "Shut. Up.", because he does not want these ne'er-do-wells in his 'hood; nobody else does either; and when he says they're crooks (based on the FBI raids), I ought to believe him.

I do believe him. I would want these people gone too.

I will now shaddup.



Since there seems to be confusion regarding my comment...my comment was not meant to communicate either of these messages, although it does encompass a little but of both. AAugustinD seeems to be approaching this from a standpoint of protecting the criminal rather than my community. That's not a standpoint I share. These people have literally shot someone dead. They are associated with drug crimes. They have a very long rap sheet. I'm not throwing accusations around, these are convicted criminals. Dangerous convicted criminals. Worse yet, the owner of the property is well aware of this and rents to these people. Shows where his priorities are. My only concern is making sure no one in this neighborhood gets hurt or worse.


Maybe you don't know the answer but why aren't convicted criminals in prison? I am just curious. I don't have anything to add about collecting assessments from the landlord owner. The lien and foreclosure seems like the way to handle that part of your dilemma. Can the HOA hire private security to patrol your neighborhood? It may offer you a level of comfort.

I do not know the answer. I do know that we live in a society where there are as many ways out of jail as in. Who knows how this person has managed to remain free at this point. The HOA cannot afford to hire private security right now. We were near bankrupt when I took over and are just beginning to see some improvement in our finances. I find it hard to believe we don't have some recourse. Surely the landlord is responsible for making the people he rents to follow the rules of the HOA, and for not renting to folks who present a safety problem to the community. I haven't even spoken of property values yet, but this can't be good for those. Who wants to live in a neighborhood where a home is repeatedly being raided by law enforcement? Where a known murderer lives, and where the owner knowingly continues to permit such tenant to live?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You'd think so, but once again, money talks and BS walks....

My state is known as a landlord friendly state, and that's lead to many apartments and rental homes to fall into ruin. The attorney general sued the owners of one complex and asked the court to appoint a receiver to run it and try to get things fixed, but lost because the current law doesn't allow it, nor does it give the city enough teeth to take over. The folks who own these shitholes often live out of state and have a powerful lobby in the state legislature and you know what happens next.

This, boys and girls, is why catering to business in every damned thing isn't always a good idea.

Its why HOAs get into civil wars between owner occupants (like moi) and owner-landlords, who scream "I gotta a right to do what I want with mah propertee!" In fact, you should be able to walkabout the community and not be able to tell who's a tenant or owner-occupant because everyone is trying to maintain their property and behave as responsible adults. If

It's why I sometimes give owner-landlords a side eye when they post about some dustup with the Board. Sometimes they are justified and you can tell they're trying to be good neighbors, but others weeknight be interested in the rent check clearing and nothing else.

Thatcher I feel for Gary and his community - hopefully they won't have to wait too long before this is resolved. Maybe the FBI raid will scare off the bad guys and they'll get some peace. I live in a townhouse community and I saw more than my share of absentee landlords who didn't give a rats are about the community. They usually didn't pay assessments either and the association lost tens of thousands of dollars in write-offs from taking all sorts of legal action. Fortunately, the numbers are finally down, but I wonder where we'd be today if everyone had behaved in the first place.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Wake up call. The reality is the HOA battle is NOT with the renters. The HOA has nothing to do with the Renters legally. The owner is the member of the HOA NOT the renters. The renters don't even pay HOA dues. The lease is between the owner and the renter NOT the HOA.

Now as far as the landlord/owner making the tenants obey the HOA rules that is ALL on the owner. Which has to be written in their lease agreement. IF it is not, the landlord's hands are tied. They can't enforce rules that aren't agreed to in their lease. The HOA can strongly suggest owners who rent put that in their lease agreements. They just can't enforce it.

Let me tell you a little story... During 911 we had some renters start moving that day. We are talking putting an SUV in a moving van and basically tossing stuff out windows to move as fast as they could. What was suspicious about this? The fact that they had Florida tags from the SAME county of the hi-jackers and from the middle east... The FBI was called in and a swat team came. About every sign of a "sleeper cell" you could name these renters matched. The FBI came in and investigated. So been there and done that with the FBI coming in.

Now the HOA response? All we could do is call the appropriate authorities which in this case was the FBI. The owners were up to date with their dues. What else was there to do? It was none of our business otherwise. BTW: It turns out these were "students" from Yemen whom were transferring schools to the West coast. So it wasn't as suspicious as it sounded it was. I talked to the owner's son later who explained it all to me. Don't always assume things and let the FBI do their job. It's none your business if it's not in your lane.

Again go after the owner by making sure a lien is filed. Once that is established then decide if foreclosure is the next step to take. It is not always the right step. Leaving a lien in place may be the best situation. It's just time consuming. Which is much better than filing a lawsuit in the long run.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 5:25 PM
I find it hard to believe we don't have some recourse. Surely the landlord is responsible for making the people he rents to follow the rules of the HOA,
Can you please quote the HOA rules that these tenants have violated?

If there are HOA rules that the tenants have violated, then I will check to see whether in Maryland the HOA can go after the tenants (instead of having to go after the owner). I believe I recall some states let the HOA/COA go after the tenants directly.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/23/2022 7:49 AM
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/22/2022 5:25 PM
I find it hard to believe we don't have some recourse. Surely the landlord is responsible for making the people he rents to follow the rules of the HOA,
Can you please quote the HOA rules that these tenants have violated?

If there are HOA rules that the tenants have violated, then I will check to see whether in Maryland the HOA can go after the tenants (instead of having to go after the owner). I believe I recall some states let the HOA/COA go after the tenants directly.

Aside from not paying their dues, has the owner violated a governing document for having them as tenant's? Do the governing documents state that convicted criminals can not be renter's/residents in the HOA?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
From https://montgomerycountymd.gov/DHCA/housing/landlordtenant/ococ.html:

"Tenants who rent properties within COCs are subject to the by-laws of that community's association... "

(Note to non-Marylanders: I think in Maryland "by-laws" are the same as CC&Rs and also include rules the board creates, said rules having an appropriate basis in the HOA's governing documents. As is much discussed here.)

Prince George's County, Montgomery County and Charles County appear to have government offices that can help with HOA-tenant-owner disputes. See https://marylandhomeownersassociation.org/problem-solution/. If the OP lives in one of these counties, then I think he should contact the right authority as listed at the latter site. The OP should then explain his concerns about the 'dangerous convicted criminals' and 'known murderer' living in his HOA. He should explain how they have 'literally shot someone dead'; have 'long rap sheets'; are associated with 'drug crimes'; and are causing FBI raids. He should be clear and start his query off with, "I am the President of my HOA. The HOA's name is _____. I fear property values are plummeting. ... What can my HOA do?" I think the OP should have a few directors listening in on the call as witnesses.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 01/23/2022 8:09 AM
Aside from not paying their dues, has the owner violated a governing document for having them as tenant's? Do the governing documents state that convicted criminals can not be renter's/residents in the HOA?
For the archives and so as not to make the day dull: If the governing documents have a general statement that convicted criminals are not allowed as renters, enter HUD.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/23/2022 8:25 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 01/23/2022 8:09 AM
Aside from not paying their dues, has the owner violated a governing document for having them as tenant's? Do the governing documents state that convicted criminals can not be renter's/residents in the HOA?
For the archives and so as not to make the day dull: If the governing documents have a general statement that convicted criminals are not allowed as renters, enter HUD.

AugustinD brings up a very good point. With frequent changes to federal and state law, governing documents are not the only "rules" for HOA's and owners to abide by no matter what they say.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/23/2022 8:13 AM

Prince George's County, Montgomery County and Charles County appear to have government offices that can help with HOA-tenant-owner disputes. See https://marylandhomeownersassociation.org/problem-solution/. If the OP lives in one of these counties
Oops.
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/21/2022 6:30 PM
I'm in Baltimore County, Maryland.
Try contacting instead:

https://marylandhomeownersassociation.org/
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is how criminal record checks are run here. There is a form for criminal investigation a tenant fills out. They have to go to that county to have a Sheriff department sign off on it at the courthouse. That form confirms that that person has no criminal history in THAT county. Keep in mind that they could be arrested in every other county in the state. It just means that county they don't have a record. So not really a very good system for checking/verifying criminal history. Also the landlord/owner is the one that does it.

Now not sure how a HOA would enforce this. They are not typically involved in any lease processes. Some HOA's are but it has to be written in the rules etc... Plus how does a HOA go about taking any type of action? They can't evict someone's tenant. They again have to go AFTER the OWNER to enforce the criminal check.

The end here is that the OP wants there to be a solution there just isn't. The arm of the HOA can't reach into your home and tell you what you can and can not do IN it. It sucks but the legal actions available is to lien and then foreclose on that lien when the time comes. It's a long process. It's the right process. It just doesn't resolve all the issues.

Former HOA President
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Thank you all again for all your help, I deeply appreciate it. I’ve learned much, and am now clear on what needs to be done and how. Hopefully things take their course before someone in the community, like a child who has to catch their school bus in front of this property, gets hurt or worse. Somehow I suspect a few here would still be more concerned that the criminals rights hadn’t been violated.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
I see that the moderator deleted my last post. My sarcasm was misplaced and I apologize. I am very frustrated with some of our corrupt and self-serving politicians that perhaps had a hand in allowing convicted criminals out of prison. For sure we do not know the circumstances about Gary's particular HOA. I have great empathy for you, Gary. People should be able to live in their homes and neighborhoods without fear.

You got some good suggestions here. Hopefully you will be able to eventually live in a neighborhood where you all feel reasonably safe
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
GaryT4, I am pretty sure you do not really want these criminals gone. If you did, you would listen to the many here who say to go after the owner for not paying the assessments, and go after both the owner and the tenants for violating any rules.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/24/2022 8:25 AM
GaryT4, I am pretty sure you do not really want these criminals gone. If you did, you would listen to the many here who say to go after the owner for not paying the assessments, and go after both the owner and the tenants for violating any rules.

I’ve done just that. You don’t seem to be reading everything though, as amongst other things you’ve provided information on several jurisdictions other than the one I said I was in. You even commented that you hoped I’d sought board approval before requesting the attorney move ahead as quickly as possible on the lien and foreclosure process. You’ve also fought me this entire time with your obvious position that it is the criminal and/or the owner who need protection from us rather than the other way around. Clearly you know I’m here to take action and have done so. This comment of yours is just totally out of left field.

I think your just getting the impression that we aren’t seeing eye to eye on this situation, and you’d be absolutely right.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
GaryT4, you're the type of guy who would tell cops not to bother reading Miranda rights to criminals, because this protects criminals' rights.

And when the criminal goes free, it will be your fault.

I am operating in reality. You are not.

That's the point. Follow the law. Get these jerks outta your neighborhood. Don't follow the law, and you will fail.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/24/2022 9:45 AM
GaryT4, you're the type of guy who would tell cops not to bother reading Miranda rights to criminals, because this protects criminals' rights.

And when the criminal goes free, it will be your fault.

I am operating in reality. You are not.

That's the point. Follow the law. Get these jerks outta your neighborhood. Don't follow the law, and you will fail.

As you ought to know, my thoughts and feelings mean relatively little. We have attorney's, whose job it is to know the law and carry out our needs within it. Our attorney has been told (With full board approval) what we'd like for him to do. I am depending on him to do it legally, and same for any other lawful request we give him. That's what we pay him to do. As for the criminal side, many here have made it clear my options are few. They certainly have gone free, but not through any action of mine. Of course, here in Baltimore County we have liberal County Executives who have stacked the books with very tenant-leaning laws, liberal prosecutor's who don't prosecute criminals, and a police department that, pardon the phrase, has had its balls very liberally cut right off. Given these, I'd say its hardly a wonder that we have asshat landlords and gun toting criminals in our community. Both are getting away with it quite well.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
GaryT4, I am glad you agree the police are stuck with reading criminals their Miranda rights.

I am pretty sure the police would not appreciate your subsequently calling them, 'protectors of criminals.'
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I took criminology. Also took business law. Your lawyer can not enforce criminal laws. That is a whole other court system. The lawyer can only use the legal instruments that exist. That is lien or foreclose. Lawsuits is another form of a lien but without the same teeth.

You seem to be hung up and confused on the line between criminal and business. The HOA is a corporation. It deals in business. It can only take business actions. It is the police or District Attorney's office of which deals with criminal side of things.

To say people here support the criminals is wrong. We just saying it is NOT our lane to be in. Does not mean we support criminal or their activity. It means we are law abiding citizens whom obey the laws. What others do with the law is not our choice. They will deal with the consequences once they are determined in a court of law not of opinion

Former HOA President
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/24/2022 10:26 AM
I took criminology. Also took business law. Your lawyer can not enforce criminal laws. That is a whole other court system. The lawyer can only use the legal instruments that exist. That is lien or foreclose. Lawsuits is another form of a lien but without the same teeth.

You seem to be hung up and confused on the line between criminal and business. The HOA is a corporation. It deals in business. It can only take business actions. It is the police or District Attorney's office of which deals with criminal side of things.

To say people here support the criminals is wrong. We just saying it is NOT our lane to be in. Does not mean we support criminal or their activity. It means we are law abiding citizens whom obey the laws. What others do with the law is not our choice. They will deal with the consequences once they are determined in a court of law not of opinion

Nowhere did I say my attorney was involved on the criminal side. You are taking shots in the dark it seems.

You can take the holier than thou approach all you want. Easy to do when its not you who will have to deal with it when someone gets killed.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/24/2022 10:01 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/24/2022 9:45 AM
GaryT4, you're the type of guy who would tell cops not to bother reading Miranda rights to criminals, because this protects criminals' rights.

And when the criminal goes free, it will be your fault.

I am operating in reality. You are not.

That's the point. Follow the law. Get these jerks outta your neighborhood. Don't follow the law, and you will fail.


As you ought to know, my thoughts and feelings mean relatively little. We have attorney's, whose job it is to know the law and carry out our needs within it. Our attorney has been told (With full board approval) what we'd like for him to do. I am depending on him to do it legally, and same for any other lawful request we give him. That's what we pay him to do. As for the criminal side, many here have made it clear my options are few. They certainly have gone free, but not through any action of mine. Of course, here in Baltimore County we have liberal County Executives who have stacked the books with very tenant-leaning laws, liberal prosecutor's who don't prosecute criminals, and a police department that, pardon the phrase, has had its balls very liberally cut right off. Given these, I'd say its hardly a wonder that we have asshat landlords and gun toting criminals in our community. Both are getting away with it quite well.

You're going to have that regardless of which way your fellow citizens lean politically.

In fact, courts tend to find in favor of owners' free use of their property, which means that landlords can benefit at the expense of their owner-occupant neighbors. Personally, I think free use of property is great outside of HOAs/COAs. But members of community associations are in legal and financial relationships with other members of the association, like it or not. Picture what would happen if a group of people went into business together, and a small subset had different objectives than the rest and that these objectives could be contrary to those of their partners. Doesn't seem like a good way to run a thriving business, does it? But this is why your beef is with your landlord neighbor/business partner.

Add this on top of existing landlord-tenant laws and the ties that professional criminals will have with those in power, and you have a recipe for a mess. (There is a reason landlord-tenant laws came into existence, by the by, and it's not because tenants were abusing their landlords, although that can certainly happen. But in general, the party with the money is the one who will call most of the shots.)

Finally, following the law to the letter is just plain smart. You can expect your opponent to use every tool at his disposal to make sure the HOA does not succeed. If you take any legal shortcuts, you're handing your opponent more tools. Hopefully your HOA's attorney will make that very clear.
GaryT4 (Maryland)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/24/2022 10:38 AM
Posted By GaryT4 on 01/24/2022 10:01 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/24/2022 9:45 AM
GaryT4, you're the type of guy who would tell cops not to bother reading Miranda rights to criminals, because this protects criminals' rights.

And when the criminal goes free, it will be your fault.

I am operating in reality. You are not.

That's the point. Follow the law. Get these jerks outta your neighborhood. Don't follow the law, and you will fail.


As you ought to know, my thoughts and feelings mean relatively little. We have attorney's, whose job it is to know the law and carry out our needs within it. Our attorney has been told (With full board approval) what we'd like for him to do. I am depending on him to do it legally, and same for any other lawful request we give him. That's what we pay him to do. As for the criminal side, many here have made it clear my options are few. They certainly have gone free, but not through any action of mine. Of course, here in Baltimore County we have liberal County Executives who have stacked the books with very tenant-leaning laws, liberal prosecutor's who don't prosecute criminals, and a police department that, pardon the phrase, has had its balls very liberally cut right off. Given these, I'd say its hardly a wonder that we have asshat landlords and gun toting criminals in our community. Both are getting away with it quite well.


You're going to have that regardless of which way your fellow citizens lean politically.

In fact, courts tend to find in favor of owners' free use of their property, which means that landlords can benefit at the expense of their owner-occupant neighbors. Personally, I think free use of property is great outside of HOAs/COAs. But members of community associations are in legal and financial relationships with other members of the association, like it or not. Picture what would happen if a group of people went into business together, and a small subset had different objectives than the rest and that these objectives could be contrary to those of their partners. Doesn't seem like a good way to run a thriving business, does it? But this is why your beef is with your landlord neighbor/business partner.

Add this on top of existing landlord-tenant laws and the ties that professional criminals will have with those in power, and you have a recipe for a mess. (There is a reason landlord-tenant laws came into existence, by the by, and it's not because tenants were abusing their landlords, although that can certainly happen. But in general, the party with the money is the one who will call most of the shots.)

Finally, following the law to the letter is just plain smart. You can expect your opponent to use every tool at his disposal to make sure the HOA does not succeed. If you take any legal shortcuts, you're handing your opponent more tools. Hopefully your HOA's attorney will make that very clear.

I think some here are just confusing my disdain for the way things are (and my disdain for one individual who unlike most others here has expressed absolutely no empathy for we who have to live in fear of this property, and instead has been empathetic to the absentee landlord and dangerous tenant) as meaning that I am looking to circumvent the law. To be clear, my organization and I, and those in our service including the attorney, are going to act to the letter of the law. Regardless of any of my feelings and opinions.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Rule number one..if you have a lawyer who says "I will do whatever you tell me to do' you do not have a good lawyer. You have one that takes orders not one that helps guide you to the right answers.

Found this out first hand. We wanted to do almost the same thing with a member. One that threatened arson to our HOA and ripped off their Tennant. He told us he would do what he wanted us to do. A little research and not so much.. there were avenues much better to follow than the one he was going to do. This is how I found out about the lien and foreclosure process done properly. This was not done through lawsuits. Which makes a lawyer a happy employee of the HOA.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Rule number one..if you have a lawyer who says "I will do whatever you tell me to do' you do not have a good lawyer. You have one that takes orders not one that helps guide you to the right answers.

Found this out first hand. We wanted to do almost the same thing with a member. One that threatened arson to our HOA and ripped off their Tennant. He told us he would do what he wanted us to do. A little research and not so much.. there were avenues much better to follow than the one he was going to do. This is how I found out about the lien and foreclosure process done properly. This was not done through lawsuits. Which makes a lawyer a happy employee of the HOA.

Former HOA President

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