Can you rent common area parking spots?

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Can common area parking spots be rented out?
Can they be granted free of charge?

At this site, they aren't affirmative, just saying "in my opinion"

"In my opinion, boards cannot take away parking meant for all owners and give it to a few owners"

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Renting-Guest-Spaces

What do others think?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Are these condos?

Assuming they are, your CC&Rs probably define "unit", "common elements" and "limited/exclusive use common elements".

In addition, there is probably language saying that all owners have an undivided ownership interest in the common areas. The "undivided" part means that no individual can lay claim to any part of the common elements. There may also be a section defining unit owners' rights and responsibilities, which will say that all owners are entitled to use all of the common elements.

If these things are true, then you'd have an issue with converting part of the common area, which is open to all, to exclusive use common areas without an amendment to the CC&Rs. Such an amendment would very like require approval by the membership - it's not something the board can just decide to do.

But all this will depend on the exact language in your CC&Rs, so you'll need to read them carefully.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Yes, these are condos.

For several years, the management company has granted exclusive use to the aforementioned areas via temporary parking permits. I would think if it is legal for them to grant this type of exclusive free of charge, then they could grant it in the same manner, but for a fee. Or am I wrong?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

With Cathy, we need to know what your governing documents, perhaps your CC&Rs or Rules & Regs, say about this common area parking. Does it say who may park there? Does it say for how long?

Assuming Cathy's experienced assumptions are pretty close to reality, I agree with her.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

1. Does each unit have a designated parking space?

2. If not, are unit owners/occupants required to have a parking permit?

3. Are the temporary parking permits being granted to residents or guests?

4. What do your documents say about parking regulations?

In our condo sub-association, the parking spaces are for guest parking (the units have driveways). Temporary parking permits are issued to visitors for overnight parking only for a maximum of 48 hours. There is no charge for the parking permit.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

From a thread about a year ago at https://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/297340/Default.aspx :

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/13/2021 9:12 AM

Here is what [the covenant] says:
"All common area parking spaces that are not assigned to units shall remain permanently available for guest parking. Owners are to use their garages for parking of their vehicles so that parking will be available for guest parking. The Association may establish rules and regulations from time to time for the parking of vehicles in the common areas."

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/13/2021 11:35 AM

The temporary passes are assigned to a particular vehicle associated with a particular unit (most are owner occupied). It may or may not be a permanent resident's vehicle. Examples of reasons people would request such a pass are:
- A guest is staying at their house for 2-3 weeks
- A health care worker is assisting someone as the house 24/7
- Remodeling in the house requires that furniture be put in the garage

The aforementioned parking passes are tied to a vehicle - not transferable.

The association also gives each unit one visitor pass, which also gives the homeowners exclusive use for short periods of time.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Based on what AugustinD posted from your conversation last year, I'd say the answer is probably no. As a practical matter, I think it's a bad idea - this could stir up one hell of a hornet's nest with trying to keep track of who rented what space, what to do with people who rent the space and then sublease it to someone else for a party or something.

I don't know what type of parking issues you have in your community, but I would think you have to look at that first before deciding if this might be an answer to your question. If your CCRs say the common area spaces are available for guest parking, the residents need to use their bloody garage. I know people have three and four-car households or really large SUVs that may take up more room these days, but developers never provide enough parking for most HOA communities of any stripe.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 12:44 PM
At this site, they aren't affirmative

The word you want is not "affirmative." The correct word is "dispositive."

TonyN2 (Illinois)
Posts: 62

Posted:

Our bylaws specefically state that owners and the board can lease out these spaces. See my attached PDF as an example. I would recommend you read all your rules & bylaws as others have stated.

📎 Attachments (1):

⏸ Downloads temporarily unavailable

📄116142056471.pdf(324 KB)

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/06/2022 1:35 PM
With Cathy, we need to know what your governing documents, perhaps your CC&Rs or Rules & Regs, say about this common area parking. Does it say who may park there? Does it say for how long?

Assuming Cathy's experienced assumptions are pretty close to reality, I agree with her.

It says all outdoor spots shall remain permanently available for guest parking. But it adds that the association may create rules for parking in the common area. As I mentioned, the association issues temporary parking permits for these outdoor spots. If they can do that, it would seem to follow they could rent these spots out. There is nothing in the CC&Rs or By Laws stating these parking spots can be used by non-guests if they are issued a temporary parking permit. As this has clearly been established under the fact the "association may create rules for parking in the common area", it would seem to follow that the association could rent these spaces. If not, then it would seem that to issue the temporary permits would be a violation of the CC&Rs.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 01/06/2022 2:14 PM
From a thread about a year ago at https://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/297340/Default.aspx :

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/13/2021 9:12 AM

Here is what [the covenant] says:
"All common area parking spaces that are not assigned to units shall remain permanently available for guest parking. Owners are to use their garages for parking of their vehicles so that parking will be available for guest parking. The Association may establish rules and regulations from time to time for the parking of vehicles in the common areas."

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/13/2021 11:35 AM

The temporary passes are assigned to a particular vehicle associated with a particular unit (most are owner occupied). It may or may not be a permanent resident's vehicle. Examples of reasons people would request such a pass are:
- A guest is staying at their house for 2-3 weeks
- A health care worker is assisting someone as the house 24/7
- Remodeling in the house requires that furniture be put in the garage

The aforementioned parking passes are tied to a vehicle - not transferable.

The association also gives each unit one visitor pass, which also gives the homeowners exclusive use for short periods of time.

What would you say? If they can give out these temporary passes, it would seem to follow that they can rent the spots out. Would you agree? Or might it be the case by giving out the temporary passes, they are in violation of the CC&Rs?

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 01/06/2022 1:37 PM
1. Does each unit have a designated parking space?

2. If not, are unit owners/occupants required to have a parking permit?

3. Are the temporary parking permits being granted to residents or guests?

4. What do your documents say about parking regulations?

In our condo sub-association, the parking spaces are for guest parking (the units have driveways). Temporary parking permits are issued to visitors for overnight parking only for a maximum of 48 hours. There is no charge for the parking permit.

No, each unit does not have a designated outdoor parking space.
If owners/occupants wish to park in the common area, they are required to display a guest tag. The rules, when mentioning guest and resident do not indicate if it pertains to the person driving the vehicle or the vehicle itself. E.g. a resident driving a guest vehicle vs. a guest driving a resident vehicle.
Temporary permits are granted to the occupant and can be used for a resident vehicle or a guest vehicle.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 01/06/2022 3:34 PM
Based on what AugustinD posted from your conversation last year, I'd say the answer is probably no. As a practical matter, I think it's a bad idea - this could stir up one hell of a hornet's nest with trying to keep track of who rented what space, what to do with people who rent the space and then sublease it to someone else for a party or something.

I don't know what type of parking issues you have in your community, but I would think you have to look at that first before deciding if this might be an answer to your question. If your CCRs say the common area spaces are available for guest parking, the residents need to use their bloody garage. I know people have three and four-car households or really large SUVs that may take up more room these days, but developers never provide enough parking for most HOA communities of any stripe.

As is the case with the temporary permits, if a space were rented, it would be to use any of the outdoor spots. The same as one of the permits, but the resident pays for it.

Our parking is grossly underused and remains well over 75% empty much of the time. The extra cars from the 3 & 4 car households spill over onto the local residential streets, pissing off the homeowners there.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Good heavens, it's YOU again, yapping about parking and what you feel is an underused parking lot - isn't there anything else in your community you're concerned about?

You do realize other residents have friends and vendors who visit them every now and again, so why would you want to complicate issues by reducing the number of spaces available because they're rented out? As for the people with the three or four cars, they had to have known the parking situation when they moved in - if they're ticking off nearby residents because they're taking their parking spaces, that's really their problem.

I seem to recall you said you're on the board, so have you taken this suggestion to them - or have they stopped listening because all you seem to care about is parking? If you think renting spaces might work, bring it up at the next board or annual meeting, perhaps suggesting holding a special homeowner meeting to discuss parking. For all you know, the other residents are happy with the way things are - and maybe that's why you still haven't gotten anywhere. You'll need a majority of homeowners to approve revising the covenants, so if that's what you want, maybe you should talk to the homeowners with the 3-4 cars and they could help convince the others.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

This sounds a lot like the parking situation in my community.

I'm going to step back a bit, since this seems less like a parking question vs. a question on whether or not the association has the right to charge money for use of *any* of the common elements, along with reserving common elements for individual use. Those are two separate issues that may depend on language in other parts of the CC&Rs, and maybe in state law as well. Personal opinion: neither of those would fly in my community.

FWIW, I've seen associations charge money for things like use of the clubhouse for private parties. This can be either a refundable deposit or an outright charge to pay for additional cleaning and service of the facility.

Not sure whether that's comparable to charging for a parking spot. For one thing, people have to park somewhere, and parking space is something that the association would provide as a normal part of business. Private parties are a bit different, and I'm not sure that the association would consider them part of "normal business" - community events yes, but not necessarily private functions.

The other thing you need to consider is how enforceable your rules and regs are. It wouldn't make sense to create a fancy new system with permits and payments if the association will have to spend time and money trying to keep track of it all and dealing with a new set of violations. (We amended our parking restriction so that it was reasonably enforceable, which the original restriction was not. For one thing, we don't have an on-site manager to deal with parking issues that may arise on the weekends when we see the most usage by guests.)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Another comment about parking: our attorney said that people have to buy homes that fit their needs. If somebody with 4 cars buys a condo with a 1-car garage, then that's the owner's problem. The condo association is not obligated to change the rules to accommodate the extra vehicles.

MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414

Posted:

You should read up on your CC&Rs, but this sounds like a change that would require support from the majority of members.

It would be very unfair to give a small number of people a designated spot free of charge.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 1:31 PM
Yes, these are condos. For several years, the management company has granted exclusive use to the aforementioned areas via temporary parking permits. I would think if it is legal for them to grant this type of exclusive free of charge, then they could grant it in the same manner, but for a fee. Or am I wrong?

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 9:32 PM
What would you say? If they can give out these temporary passes, it would seem to follow that they can rent the spots out. Would you agree? Or might it be the case by giving out the temporary passes, they are in violation of the CC&Rs?

PaulL12, I say

-- If you are taking your argument for rented parking spaces above to the Board, either as a fellow director or as an owner using IDR, you can argue whatever, and the Board will do whatever.

-- If I were either on your board; a mediator for this dispute; or a judge in a court room, my position would be that the covenants and HOA law prohibit issuing (both temporary and permanent) parking permits to units (excepting unusual circumstances like remodeling or possibly disability) for the common area guest parking spaces. I would first motion to stop this practice.

-- If the first motion was voted down, and then someone motioned to rent the parking spaces, I would vote against this second motion.

I would appreciate an update on what you have done since the thread from a year ago. Also please respond to the following: Are you on the Board? Are you using IDR?

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Sheila - this is about utilizing shared space in such a way that it best serves the community more so than it is about parking.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 01/07/2022 5:49 AM
Another comment about parking: our attorney said that people have to buy homes that fit their needs. If somebody with 4 cars buys a condo with a 1-car garage, then that's the owner's problem. The condo association is not obligated to change the rules to accommodate the extra vehicles.

I agree they are not obligated to do so. But if they can make extra money for the community by renting out unused areas, then the potential for this extra revenue should be explored.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarshallT on 01/07/2022 5:52 AM
You should read up on your CC&Rs, but this sounds like a change that would require support from the majority of members.

It would be very unfair to give a small number of people a designated spot free of charge.

We already do that. Residents can get free permits for short term usage of these spots. If that can be done for free, then it would follow that such permits for longer term usage could be rented.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/07/2022 12:16 PM
Sheila - this is about utilizing shared space in such a way that it best serves the community more so than it is about parking.

Yes, yes, we know how you feel about "unused parking spaces", but you're just one person. This is common area, which means you AND your fellow unit owners have to share them. You may have a good idea, but you still have to sell it to the board and especially other homeowners if it's going to be changed. And if this isn't about parking, why is it about (really?) It would appear you haven't made that argument or haven't convinced enough people, so maybe you need to step back and rethink it and try again. Or perhaps you really are tilting at windmills - it's your time and energy, so if you want to keep fighting the good fight, as it were, do you and good luck.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 01/07/2022 9:18 AM

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 1:31 PM
Yes, these are condos. For several years, the management company has granted exclusive use to the aforementioned areas via temporary parking permits. I would think if it is legal for them to grant this type of exclusive free of charge, then they could grant it in the same manner, but for a fee. Or am I wrong?

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 9:32 PM
What would you say? If they can give out these temporary passes, it would seem to follow that they can rent the spots out. Would you agree? Or might it be the case by giving out the temporary passes, they are in violation of the CC&Rs?

PaulL12, I say

-- If you are taking your argument for rented parking spaces above to the Board, either as a fellow director or as an owner using IDR, you can argue whatever, and the Board will do whatever.

-- If I were either on your board; a mediator for this dispute; or a judge in a court room, my position would be that the covenants and HOA law prohibit issuing (both temporary and permanent) parking permits to units (excepting unusual circumstances like remodeling or possibly disability) for the common area guest parking spaces. I would first motion to stop this practice.

-- If the first motion was voted down, and then someone motioned to rent the parking spaces, I would vote against this second motion.

I would appreciate an update on what you have done since the thread from a year ago. Also please respond to the following: Are you on the Board? Are you using IDR?

Yes I am on the board and yes I have used IDR.
With respect to these temporary parking permits, if it is legal to issue those, then it would be legal to rent these same permits. Conversely, if it is illegal to rent permits to park in our guest spots, then it would be illegal to grant the temporary permits. (see DS 4600 - there is no mention of time or money there). This has been conveyed to the board, but they do not want to do anything about it. This did not come as a surprise to me, as our board (excluding me) makes decisions not based on the best interests of the homeowners/residents, but based on what costs them the least amount of their time. This is something I was well aware of long before I was on the board.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/07/2022 12:30 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 01/07/2022 9:18 AM

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 1:31 PM
Yes, these are condos. For several years, the management company has granted exclusive use to the aforementioned areas via temporary parking permits. I would think if it is legal for them to grant this type of exclusive free of charge, then they could grant it in the same manner, but for a fee. Or am I wrong?

Quote:

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/06/2022 9:32 PM
What would you say? If they can give out these temporary passes, it would seem to follow that they can rent the spots out. Would you agree? Or might it be the case by giving out the temporary passes, they are in violation of the CC&Rs?

PaulL12, I say

-- If you are taking your argument for rented parking spaces above to the Board, either as a fellow director or as an owner using IDR, you can argue whatever, and the Board will do whatever.

-- If I were either on your board; a mediator for this dispute; or a judge in a court room, my position would be that the covenants and HOA law prohibit issuing (both temporary and permanent) parking permits to units (excepting unusual circumstances like remodeling or possibly disability) for the common area guest parking spaces. I would first motion to stop this practice.

-- If the first motion was voted down, and then someone motioned to rent the parking spaces, I would vote against this second motion.

I would appreciate an update on what you have done since the thread from a year ago. Also please respond to the following: Are you on the Board? Are you using IDR?

Yes I am on the board and yes I have used IDR.
With respect to these temporary parking permits, if it is legal to issue those, then it would be legal to rent these same permits. Conversely, if it is illegal to rent permits to park in our guest spots, then it would be illegal to grant the temporary permits. (see DS 4600 - there is no mention of time or money there). This has been conveyed to the board, but they do not want to do anything about it. This did not come as a surprise to me, as our board (excluding me) makes decisions not based on the best interests of the homeowners/residents, but based on what costs them the least amount of their time. This is something I was well aware of long before I was on the board.

I should add that the other members of the board repeatedly lie about things and repeatedly engage in gaslighting. If you can point me to a discussion which helps with how to do with boards members who repeatedly lie and gaslight, that would be appreciated.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

PaulL12, I am sorry things are so ugly there.

It appears you made your argument to the board about renting the parking spaces. It appears a Board majority rejected your argument. In my experience, the problem is not necessarily your reasoning. Instead, the problem is you do not have a board majority who feels as you do.

I think you are beating a dead horse with this particular board. I mean, you do realize that at this point that you are on a mission to control how these directors feel about something, right? You do realize that sometimes, a group will vote against a person just because they do not like how the person presented the issue, right? That's the nature of group dynamics and psychology. The truth loses often and so on.

Over a year has passed since you have tried persuading people to see things your way. I think you need to accept they 'just will not.' I think you need to move onto other strategies to get what you want. Options:

-- Seek candidates for the next board election that feel as you do, and work to get them elected.

-- Accept what the board majority does here, and move onto other concerns.

-- Hire an attorney and see what he/she thinks about what the board is doing and what you want the board to do.

-- Move. Seriously.

-- Cling to this absurd notion that, after over a year, you are somehow going to flip directors' votes your way; drive yourself nuts as you continue on this Quixotic mission; continue with the other directors disdaining you; and giving you less and less credibility; and so on.

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 01/07/2022 12:30 PM

Posted By PaulL12 on 01/07/2022 12:16 PM
Sheila - this is about utilizing shared space in such a way that it best serves the community more so than it is about parking.

Yes, yes, we know how you feel about "unused parking spaces", but you're just one person. This is common area, which means you AND your fellow unit owners have to share them. You may have a good idea, but you still have to sell it to the board and especially other homeowners if it's going to be changed. And if this isn't about parking, why is it about (really?) It would appear you haven't made that argument or haven't convinced enough people, so maybe you need to step back and rethink it and try again. Or perhaps you really are tilting at windmills - it's your time and energy, so if you want to keep fighting the good fight, as it were, do you and good luck.

The other homeowners (at least the ones I have spoken with) don't like it. They are misled into thinking they have to park their vehicle on surface streets a good 1/4 mile away when they could park it a 2-3 minute walk away. They are inconvenienced into having to put visitor parking tags on their visitor vehicles when the visitor arrives - yet most of the time it is not required. These homeowners are happy to talk with me about these gripes and I tell them to contact the mgmt company about it, but they typically do nothing. And if I bring it up with the board - they lie to me and engage in blatant gaslighting.