Christmas signs

our HOA does not allow signs. Houses for sale may put a sign
in the front window. At Christmas many residents put a sign on the front
lawn stating "Keep Christ in Christmas" with the sign makers name in small print at yhr bottom of the sign. Is this allowed as a religious
showing of the Christmas holiday which are allowed or an infraction of the rule. your comments

Harold
this is single family housing comminity. Christmas decorations are
allowed. Is this sign not a Christmas decoration?

people, people, people ...... get lives

If you are confused as to the meaning, then many people are!!

Work to get your bylaws or CCR's more clear. (possible amendment or reminder notice to all confirming the meaning. Do it now, before the season is really upon us!!)

FrankD2 - While JohnB7 may think people need to get lives, I say you have an interesting situation that is worthy of discussion. You see, an HOA Board can be reasonable in their enforcement of a rule but at the end of the day they must reasonably enforce what the rule states and that it complies with local, state, federal laws, etc. The HOA Board also runs a very high risk in being accused of discrimination when they do or do not enforce a rule. So it's not just a matter of people getting lives. I don't think anyone would or should object if a rule states holiday decorations can only be on display the first day after Thanksgiving and 3 weeks after Christmas, and someone displays a day or two after or before the holiday. Personally I would be incredibly offended by a sign that tells me to keep Christ in Christmas if it were in my HOA. Because quite frankly I like the fact that I bought into a community where there are rules and regulations that make my neck of the woods devoid of all the information overload out there in the rest of the world. Your rule says no signs, these are signs plain and simple. The fact that these signs are using Christmas to get it's point across is irrelevant. The signs are making a statement that the owners feel necessary to advertise to the community. Who's taking Christ out of Christmas?

BradP - While it may be decorative, it is a sign that advertises a belief and the sign-maker.

To all,
I am happy to see that Hoatalk has wished us one and all a Happy Holidays.
Now, that didn't hurt did it, and I bet you didn't know that.

See posting on HOA topic 10,000 members.

Happy Holidays to you at HOA.

BradP - FrankD2's association, right or wrong, does not allow signs. It's that simple. All of this whoopla about the intent of holiday decorations, how pretty they are, how festive, how well-intended etc. is ultimately irrelevant to the reality that a sign is not allowed. I am an advocate of flags, decorations, holiday displays, etc. But a Board's ultimate obligation is to uphold the cc&r's, rules/regs. If you are trying to make a point, compare an apple to an apple, not a halloween ghost to a sign that states Keep Christ in Christmas.

Donna -

Great to hear that you were able to get everyone back onto the same page so quickly. Just out of curiosity, did any of those homeowners try to use the "Freedom of Speech" card? In the recent election we had a few signs crop up, and a couple of those in violation tried to tell us that we were violating their Constitutional Rights by telling them they couldn't put up campaign signs. One of them was an owner who didn't feel comfortable telling his renters that they had to take down their signs. Since our CC&Rs are clear (no signs except a single 'For Sale' sign in the yard), and we didn't force people to buy into the community with that restriction, our attorney has informed us that FOS doesn't apply.

Also on the subject of signs - has anybody had to deal with complaints about kids lemonade stands and their associated signs, or "lost pet" signs? While we were establishing that the "No signs" rule also applied to the "Open house" directional signs that were cropping up all over the neighborhood, some of the homeowners who had to take their signs down asked if we would enforce that rule if some kids had lemonade stands with signs, or if somebody posted lost animal signs around the neighborhood. So far the only sign in that class that I've had to deal with was one 3x5 lost animal sign from another neighborhood that was posted in our park. I've typically told people that if we start getting complaints about those signs (as we have for the 'Open House' and campaign signs), then we would look into it.

A house for sale sign is the one exception Frank stated his community has. House for Sale signs are not the same as a sign that states Keep Christ in Christmas (KCiC). It is technically an infraction of the rule. I'd have to see the sign in order to comment on it being decorative in and of itself. That it's placed during a holiday season probably makes it decorative in the category of "holiday decorations". How the Board chooses to govern that infraction of sign display is up to Frank's Board.

If you wish to characterize the ghost with the writing as a sign (an apple to an apple) than yes, it would not be allowed in an association that has a rule stating "no signs of any kind". Even though it is decorative or a decoration.

I don't mean to hijack Frank's post but it seems what we are really talking about is making exceptions if a cc&r is broken. When you take the infraction out of the equation, look at it in it's most basic terms and then decide how you would deal with making exceptions to a cc&r infraction. Where people get into a conundrum is in their opinion on the infraction. Is it nice, is it fitting, what did the owners mean, is it offensive, you get the point.

A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, insurance adjuster, a politician, executive or director of a corporation or a medical research scientist or physician, has competing professional or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially. A conflict of interest exists even if no unethical or improper act results from it. A conflict of interest can create an appearance of impropriety that can undermine confidence in the person, profession, or court system. A conflict can be mitigated by third party verification or third party evaluation noted below—but it still exists.

Now we have a mutual trust in each other as members of an HOA. The Board wants to put the issue of Christmas or religous signs being erected to a vote.

Can all the members vote? If you consider Christmas as a religous expression, do you have a conflict of interest, and so on.
This would end up with only agnostics voting. I mention this only because, "Two Men and A Boy" reruns are not on tonight at this time.

Taken at face value, and assuming that they are flat wood, plastic, or cardboard with a stake into the ground, these are indeed "signs" and are not allowed under your CC&Rs. After all, traditional "For Sale" signs are not allowed in yards.

If, on the other hand, residents were to place Christmas or other holliday decorations in the yard (assuming these are allowed) with the same wording on them, they would probably not be considered "signs". A manger scene, for example.

"Keep Christ in Christmas" would be appropriate.

The problem with many of our CC&Rs is that they are poorly worded. For example, to regulate or prohibit a sign, we must define what a "sign" is. An effective definition of a "sign" could easily take half a page of text.