Dues waiver for annual meeting attendance (prize)

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Years ago, way before I was on the board, we offered a dues waiver prize for meeting attendance. This year we have moved to electronic/paper ballots instead of having elections at the meeting, and every ballot we receive in advance counts as meeting attendance for quorum purposes. The electronic ballots are really easy to fill out (essentially SurveyMonkey forms) so I am hoping that we will get more people voting this year than in years past.

I'm wondering if it would be effective to garner more participation by offering a dues waiver ($230) prize to one person who votes in advance of the meeting? I'm thinking this would be a good way of increasing participation.

We need to get 1/4 of all homeowners to either attend the meeting or vote ahead of time in order to conduct business at the annual meeting, and that's important to me that we get it the first try. Last year I ran around knocking on people's doors to ask them to fill out proxy forms, but don't want to do that again this year.

I'd love to get 1/4 of all homeowners to vote ahead of time so we make qurorum without any extra effort on our part.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Typically, the board does not have the authority to waive assessments.

Instead of waiving assessments, I would suggest that the board purchases gift cards as door prizes.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/18/2021 2:13 AM
Typically, the board does not have the authority to waive assessments.

Instead of waiving assessments, I would suggest that the board purchases gift cards as door prizes.

Same concept. We could give one person a $230 Amazon gift card.

My question was more about whether it would be effective in increasing ballot returns.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

All you can do is include everyone in the drawing and see what happens.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Is there a section of the Declaration or Bylaws that says the Board may spend money on a gift card, awarded to a person who attends and wins a drawing (for the gift card) for attendees (in person; by proxy; by absentee vote)?

If there are big ticket items on the agenda, and absent a quorum, a second meeting must be attempted to execute these agenda items, and given the expenses of notices et cetera for a second meeting, then I, as a hypothetical owner at HenryS7's HOA would not quibble.

Else just saying: I am not persuaded that the Declaration or Bylaws authorizes such an expense.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

That's a hard NO!!

The assessments are set by the CC&Rs, and changing them amounts to an illegal amendment. If my board tried it, they would receive a stiffly worded "knock it off" from my attorney since any shortfall in income must be paid by the remaining homeowners.

In other words: NO!!!! :-)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

In case I wasn't clear enough... :-)

A gift card accomplishes the same thing as waiving dues: it benefits one homeowner at others' expense. And I'm opposed in principle to paying homeowners to do things that are their responsibility and that are already in their best interests.

I'm less opposed to something like serving refreshments at the annual meeting (but no alcohol - it makes people stupid and violates some religious prohibitions - and may require a new election if someone claims that people were voting impaired).

In my experience, the best way to increase attendance at the annual meeting is to have a contested election with visible campaigning going on during the run up.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Incentives to attend annual meetings are not uncommon, and a sad commentary on participation.

That said - you can’t call it a dues waiver, there’s no way your governing docs allow that. So cash, gift cards, etc is the way to go. Try to find something that doesn’t require spending money. I used to work for an HOA that had a clubhouse, and if you turned in your absentee ballot you entered a lottery to win the use of the clubhouse on super bowl Sunday - a day everyone tries to book. I just had an Xmas party for the community I currently manage and all the door prizes were donated by either the HOAs vendors or local businesses so see what you can do there.

Or, nag early and often. I made quorum with 1200+ homes by sending out notices as early as the docs allowed, reminding often, putting up signs in the neighborhood, and blanketing very communication channel with the message: if you don’t make quorum, there will have to be a recall meeting and it will cost $X.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Henry
You want attendance. In the Agenda put Dues Increase Discussion. When it comes up say the BOD sees no need for such at this time.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/18/2021 6:53 AM
In case I wasn't clear enough... :-)

A gift card accomplishes the same thing as waiving dues: it benefits one homeowner at others' expense. And I'm opposed in principle to paying homeowners to do things that are their responsibility and that are already in their best interests.

I'm less opposed to something like serving refreshments at the annual meeting (but no alcohol - it makes people stupid and violates some religious prohibitions - and may require a new election if someone claims that people were voting impaired).

In my experience, the best way to increase attendance at the annual meeting is to have a contested election with visible campaigning going on during the run up.

Even if, when quorum is not reached, the governing documents mandate that the Board arrange a second meeting, and the cost of the required mailing of notices is say $2000 (two thousand dollars)?

I wonder if there's something in the governing documents that might give a board just enough legal wiggle room to offer a potential prize of, say, $100 to attendees, awardable to one attendee (in person, by proxy, et cetera), and only by drawing.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Worst idea ever. Do you know how a HOA budget works and what it is for??? You never ever for no reason ever never forgive paying a dues. It's your HOA's INCOME!!!

Former HOA President

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 12/18/2021 6:56 AM
Incentives to attend annual meetings are not uncommon, and a sad commentary on participation.

Just chatting here. I know I have refused to participate (vote, attend et cetera) when a board is entrenched, due to absentee owner-landlords being over 50% of the owners; using HOA resources extensively for their own campaigns; publicly deriding, say, those who went to the city and successfully got a parking space ordinance enforced at the HOA; and the board is violating so many covenants that fighting them legally would cost a fortune.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

No on dues waiver. but, yes on gift cards. We will be doing something like this when we send out our CC&Rs revision ballot. I believe there's a discussion of this at Davis-Stirling.com that someone might want to check.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

To quote the late great Whitney Houston - Hell to the naw! Your budget must be based on ALL homeowners paying assessments in full and on time - you can't do that if one or two households (or more) don't or refuse to pay for whatever reason.

If you read your documents, you will note homeowners have a legal obligation to pay assessments - why on earth would the board,of all people, act against that??

If homeowners don't see the importance of attending at least one meeting a year, there's probably not much you can do to encourage them otherwise (except announce plans for a special assessment- everyone will show up for that meeting!)

We gave away gift cards (two at $50 each) to try and encourage live attendance- didn't really work, but because one card went to a homeowner who turned in a proxy (random drawing) we did get an increase, which was successful. You could try a similar approach

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/18/2021 9:22 AM
No on dues waiver. but, yes on gift cards. We will be doing something like this when we send out our CC&Rs revision ballot. I believe there's a discussion of this at Davis-Stirling.com that someone might want to check.

Actually there is.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/I/Incentives-to-Vote#axzz2hT3I7GVG

Raffles. There is nothing illegal or improper about raffling off one month's dues, gift cards, bottles of wine, a dinner at a local restaurant, etc. One month's dues can be refunded to the owner out of the general account. The mail-in ballot envelope with the person's name and address can be used as the raffle ticket for the drawing. Normally, any entity that wishes to use a raffle as a means of raising funds must register with the Office of the Attorney General. (Penal Code 320.5) However, raffles are exempt if they do not require any of the participants to pay for a chance to win. Since the raffle is being used to meet quorum requirements rather than raise money, associations do not need to register the raffle with the Attorney General's Office.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

No?

Unless you are suggesting that the gift card is only redeemable for assessments. And even then, while it would result in the same outcome, it’s not the same. Credit card companies don’t allow stores to impose a surcharge for CC use, so stores offer a cash discount. Same idea.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 12/18/2021 6:40 AM
Is there a section of the Declaration or Bylaws that says the Board may spend money on a gift card, awarded to a person who attends and wins a drawing (for the gift card) for attendees (in person; by proxy; by absentee vote)?

If there are big ticket items on the agenda, and absent a quorum, a second meeting must be attempted to execute these agenda items, and given the expenses of notices et cetera for a second meeting, then I, as a hypothetical owner at HenryS7's HOA would not quibble.

Else just saying: I am not persuaded that the Declaration or Bylaws authorizes such an expense.

AugustinD, do your governing documents specify everything money can be spent on? I would think it more common for boards to have discretion. We have spending limits but if the board wants to purchase anything within those limits for the good of the association, we can.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

I don't think so. The cost is the same but the board, generally, cannot waive assessments but they can make purchases for the benefit of the association.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BenA2 on 12/18/2021 1:38 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

I don't think so. The cost is the same but the board, generally, cannot waive assessments but they can make purchases for the benefit of the association.

I cited any attorney's opinion, who happens to be the same attorney we hired for my association. Our previous attorney allowed the association to waive one month for 2 owner in our 2008 elections. I happened to have won one of them. They also waived one month for all owner in Dec 2008, again with the approval of the attorney. We had too much cash and probably needed to return the money via IRS 70-104.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BenA2 on 12/18/2021 1:33 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 12/18/2021 6:40 AM
Is there a section of the Declaration or Bylaws that says the Board may spend money on a gift card, awarded to a person who attends and wins a drawing (for the gift card) for attendees (in person; by proxy; by absentee vote)?

If there are big ticket items on the agenda, and absent a quorum, a second meeting must be attempted to execute these agenda items, and given the expenses of notices et cetera for a second meeting, then I, as a hypothetical owner at HenryS7's HOA would not quibble.

Else just saying: I am not persuaded that the Declaration or Bylaws authorizes such an expense.

AugustinD, do your governing documents specify everything money can be spent on? I would think it more common for boards to have discretion. We have spending limits but if the board wants to purchase anything within those limits for the good of the association, we can.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/P/Political-Contribution

QUESTION: The board special assessed the membership 5% to contribute to a political action committee which is currently suing the city to block construction of a nearby city park. What are our options for stopping the board?

ANSWER: In Finley v. Superior Court, a homeowners association used association funds to fight the conversion of the nearby El Toro Marine Base into a commercial airport. Members of the association sued claiming this was a misuse of funds and exceeded the board's authority. The court found that political contributions were not illegal and that boards can take actions they believe are in the best interests of the association, even if members disagree. As a result, unless your governing documents provide otherwise, your board can impose a 5% special assessment to raise funds for a political action committee and related legal expenses. If the membership disagrees with the board's actions, they have recourse--they can recall the board and elect directors who agree with their position.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 12/18/2021 12:12 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

No?

Unless you are suggesting that the gift card is only redeemable for assessments. And even then, while it would result in the same outcome, it’s not the same. Credit card companies don’t allow stores to impose a surcharge for CC use, so stores offer a cash discount. Same idea.

No, because accounting.

Compare being unemployed for a while vs. staying employed and spending the difference in income. If you believe those are the same, the IRS may want to have a word with you. And a competent auditor would cite you if you recorded them the same.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/18/2021 1:58 PM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 12/18/2021 12:12 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

No?

Unless you are suggesting that the gift card is only redeemable for assessments. And even then, while it would result in the same outcome, it’s not the same. Credit card companies don’t allow stores to impose a surcharge for CC use, so stores offer a cash discount. Same idea.

No, because accounting.

Compare being unemployed for a while vs. staying employed and spending the difference in income. If you believe those are the same, the IRS may want to have a word with you. And a competent auditor would cite you if you recorded them the same.

????

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/18/2021 1:58 PM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 12/18/2021 12:12 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2021 10:15 AM
Isn't waiving one month @$230.00 the exact same thing as giving out a $230.00 gift card??????

No?

Unless you are suggesting that the gift card is only redeemable for assessments. And even then, while it would result in the same outcome, it’s not the same. Credit card companies don’t allow stores to impose a surcharge for CC use, so stores offer a cash discount. Same idea.

No, because accounting.

Compare being unemployed for a while vs. staying employed and spending the difference in income. If you believe those are the same, the IRS may want to have a word with you. And a competent auditor would cite you if you recorded them the same.

I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.

Max said isn’t waiving $230 the same as giving a $230 gift card.

I said no.

Obviously a $230 gift card to Amazon isn’t comparable in any way to waiving $230 of dues. But let’s say the board offered a $230 gift card toward dues. Then the association bills the full assessment and the owner pays with this gift card and the remaining balance in cash. That achieves the same goal as a waiver, but allows the board to levy the full assessment as they must.

I then gave an example of businesses giving a “cash discount” as a back door to charging a fee for credit card use as an analogous situation. Following the rules but getting the outcome you want.

No clue how you interpreted my post or why you are threatening me with the IRS lol

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 12/18/2021 6:40 AM
Is there a section of the Declaration or Bylaws that says the Board may spend money on a gift card, awarded to a person who attends and wins a drawing (for the gift card) for attendees (in person; by proxy; by absentee vote)?

Really? I'm sure most HOAs have gift card drawings articulated in the Bylaws...

Just say it's a bad idea because dues waivers are bad ideas.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

KellyM3, I understand that you think boards should make decisions based on whether they think something is 'a bad idea.'

I will continue to encourage HOA directors, officers and managers to look first to the governing documents.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

It's a good idea, but I think any book on psychology will show people respond more to negative (announce discussion of increasing dues 10% due to covid inflation) which effects all,
versus something positive that will only benefit one person.

I know personally the best turn outs have been when increased dues are discussed.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Let me explain the difference between waiving dues and giving out a gift card equal to dues. Dues is INCOME. The failure for a member to pay Dues is cause to generate a lien/foreclosure for unpaid dues. It is considered "damages". Accounting wise unpaid dues should show up for that person's account. Once a certain timeline or amount owed reaches a certain limit it should be triggering the lien/foreclosure process. For us it was 6 months behind we liened. At that point the amount owed equaled about the cost of filing a lien to get the money owed. Break-even point for taking the proper legal actions for money owed.

So "Waiving" dues shows up a little differently accounting wise. Let's say the HOA decides because of "good behavior" or "being on the board" qualifies as a reason to waive dues for 1 month to 1 year of the service. This person gets angry at the HOA and decides to stop paying their dues.

Now what do you lien for and at what point? The HOA just screwed themselves out of 1 month to 1 year of income. Plus they can't lien or add that amount to the lien/foreclosure process. It's waived fees. That now puts them in the non-recovery zone. It's gone and the HOA shot themselves in the foot.

There is a "work-around" for this. You do NOT use the HOA funds to "waive" the dues. Instead the board or general membership chips in their own PERSONAL money to purchase a "gift card" or pay the Dues on their behalf. It should never ever come out of the HOA's money. It's being taken out of the income.

Example: You rent your house for the same as your house payments. You decide for Christmas to let the renter not pay rent that month. Well does that mean you still don't have to pay the bank the payment? Would it be better you gave them the amount of rent to them as a check than waive? Same thing for a HOA.

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2021 7:26 AM
Let me explain the difference between waiving dues and giving out a gift card equal to dues. Dues is INCOME. The failure for a member to pay Dues is cause to generate a lien/foreclosure for unpaid dues. It is considered "damages". Accounting wise unpaid dues should show up for that person's account. Once a certain timeline or amount owed reaches a certain limit it should be triggering the lien/foreclosure process. For us it was 6 months behind we liened. At that point the amount owed equaled about the cost of filing a lien to get the money owed. Break-even point for taking the proper legal actions for money owed.

So "Waiving" dues shows up a little differently accounting wise. Let's say the HOA decides because of "good behavior" or "being on the board" qualifies as a reason to waive dues for 1 month to 1 year of the service. This person gets angry at the HOA and decides to stop paying their dues.

Now what do you lien for and at what point? The HOA just screwed themselves out of 1 month to 1 year of income. Plus they can't lien or add that amount to the lien/foreclosure process. It's waived fees. That now puts them in the non-recovery zone. It's gone and the HOA shot themselves in the foot.

There is a "work-around" for this. You do NOT use the HOA funds to "waive" the dues. Instead the board or general membership chips in their own PERSONAL money to purchase a "gift card" or pay the Dues on their behalf. It should never ever come out of the HOA's money. It's being taken out of the income.

Example: You rent your house for the same as your house payments. You decide for Christmas to let the renter not pay rent that month. Well does that mean you still don't have to pay the bank the payment? Would it be better you gave them the amount of rent to them as a check than waive? Same thing for a HOA.

Absolutely clueless.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

You, as an association "leader", may not want or agree to waiving a month's dues to increase attendance at an annual meeting. That's fine. What's shown is an attorney says it's ok and it is easy to account for it on association books. If members don't approve, they have recourse at the ballot box.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It's just not only a bad idea but damaging to the HOA in the long run. Don't remember being paid to show up to vote for President of the United states. If I was, it would have been considered voter fraud.

Not clueless. Had someone who did just that. Previous board allowed them not to pay dues. When we had to lien had to NOT lien for that amount when fees were "waived". Basically tossing out our own money to pay this person's way in the HOA. That my dear is dumb.

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2021 8:16 AM
Don't remember being paid to show up to vote for President of the United states.

Actually, that was a common practice in some areas of the country.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Well then tell me how it benefits the HOA to lose income by a non-dues payment? Plus considering it's taking it's OWN income to PAY for that missed dues payment?

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's owners. Why in the world does it makes sense to take money from that fund to pay another member NOT to fund it?

If it takes money for people to come to your meetings do be an active part of their own HOA, you have BIGGER problems.

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2021 8:28 AM
Well then tell me how it benefits the HOA to lose income by a non-dues payment? Plus considering it's taking it's OWN income to PAY for that missed dues payment?

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's owners. Why in the world does it makes sense to take money from that fund to pay another member NOT to fund it?

If it takes money for people to come to your meetings do be an active part of their own HOA, you have BIGGER problems.

I never said I did it, but it is done and it's legal. Don't want to do it, DON'T.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

It may be legal, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I still say you have to compensate for the missing assessment. If youngest to account for this by adjusting the budget fine, but it'll probably cause more problems than it's worth.

In the meantime, henry, maybe there's another reason people don't participate. This would be a good question for a type of homeowner poll. Are people still conceded about crowds because of COVID? Is the meeting date and or time conflicting with something else? Maybe the location of the meeting is inconvenient. Or people just don't care, in which case, save the money and move on. If these people ever get annoyed, I assure you they'll let you know sooner or later.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It's has to be a "WANT" to do it than should. Otherwise this idea benefits the greedy.

Former HOA President

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

I think that Melissa's comments that I need to pony up my own money to encourage homeowners to vote in our election so we can make quorum is downright offensive. We legally need to meet quorum to conduct association business, and that is 25% of all homeowners, per our CC&Rs. That is a high bar to cross.

Last year, I spent an afternoon knocking on doors collecting proxies. I hate proxies, but I collected them anyway so we would make quorum. Not doing that again this year. No one else from the board put much effort into collecting proxies.

If I don't collect proxies or knock on doors, and if enough homeowners don't participate in elections and submit ballots, we won't meet quorum. Then we will have to mail out new flyers asking for more voters and a new annual meeting date (~$600 cost). Then maybe a third time if we don't get enough the second time. Don't want that happening this year.

I'm not sure how many extra votes offering the prize will garner but I hope some. Maybe enough to get quorum the first time.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 12/19/2021 9:09 AM
It may be legal, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I still say you have to compensate for the missing assessment. If youngest to account for this by adjusting the budget fine, but it'll probably cause more problems than it's worth.

In the meantime, henry, maybe there's another reason people don't participate. This would be a good question for a type of homeowner poll. Are people still conceded about crowds because of COVID? Is the meeting date and or time conflicting with something else? Maybe the location of the meeting is inconvenient. Or people just don't care, in which case, save the money and move on. If these people ever get annoyed, I assure you they'll let you know sooner or later.

We are doing a mail based election where we mail out ballots to everyone, and homeowners can return them any way they like (electronically via online poll, picture of ballot and e-mail to property manager, or regular mail). We need 25% to return the ballots. This is a high bar to cross and every incentive that we can give homeowners is worthwhile.

For the survey, so far, we have received survey results from 9% of adult homeowners in our neighborhood. Probably about 15% of homes. We have advertised this heavily and will continue to do so.

Honestly, there simply is homeowner apathy in our neighborhood.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Henry,

Keep in mind that the average survey response is 30%.
If you get a 50% response, that would be considered excellent.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Henry, it might help to send the ballot return envelopes already stamped.

Yes, 9% is pretty bad. Actually 30% would be consider an OK return rate.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Get rid of the quorum requirement. Problem solved!

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2021 5:02 PM
Henry, it might help to send the ballot return envelopes already stamped.

Yes, 9% is pretty bad. Actually 30% would be consider an OK return rate.

They can return via mail, or they can click on a link and submit electronically, or they can scan a QR code and fill out electronically, or they can fill it out by paper and take a picture with their cell phone and e-mail that in to the PM. The lack of a stamp is not the issue.

The average age of my community is probably about 40, and we live in a techy part of the country.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HenryS7 on 12/18/2021 1:30 AM
... every ballot we receive in advance counts as meeting attendance for quorum purposes... We need to get 1/4 of all homeowners to either attend the meeting or vote ahead of time in order to conduct business at the annual meeting

It usually doesn't work that way. Can you copy the text from your documents or state law that says that a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting?

The number of votes cast by ballot must equal or exceed the quorum required to be present at a meeting. However, this does not mean a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting. Voting by ballot accomplishes the same thing as an in-person meeting, but without the meeting.

If you receive enough ballots to meet the quorum requirement, then the election counts, but you can't have a meeting unless you get a quorum of members at your meeting (in person or by proxy). You still need to have members in person or proxies in order to have a meeting and conduct business.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/20/2021 6:39 PM

Posted By HenryS7 on 12/18/2021 1:30 AM
... every ballot we receive in advance counts as meeting attendance for quorum purposes... We need to get 1/4 of all homeowners to either attend the meeting or vote ahead of time in order to conduct business at the annual meeting

It usually doesn't work that way. Can you copy the text from your documents or state law that says that a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting?

The number of votes cast by ballot must equal or exceed the quorum required to be present at a meeting. However, this does not mean a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting. Voting by ballot accomplishes the same thing as an in-person meeting, but without the meeting.

If you receive enough ballots to meet the quorum requirement, then the election counts, but you can't have a meeting unless you get a quorum of members at your meeting (in person or by proxy). You still need to have members in person or proxies in order to have a meeting and conduct business.

Not true. In California, certain voting, such as amending governing docs, implementing a special assessment or increasing assessments and election of directors MUST BE done via secret ballots. Those ballots, when returned to either a ballot collector or inspector of elections, if valid, will always count towards quorum.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/20/2021 6:46 PM

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/20/2021 6:39 PM

Posted By HenryS7 on 12/18/2021 1:30 AM
... every ballot we receive in advance counts as meeting attendance for quorum purposes... We need to get 1/4 of all homeowners to either attend the meeting or vote ahead of time in order to conduct business at the annual meeting

It usually doesn't work that way. Can you copy the text from your documents or state law that says that a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting?

The number of votes cast by ballot must equal or exceed the quorum required to be present at a meeting. However, this does not mean a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting. Voting by ballot accomplishes the same thing as an in-person meeting, but without the meeting.

If you receive enough ballots to meet the quorum requirement, then the election counts, but you can't have a meeting unless you get a quorum of members at your meeting (in person or by proxy). You still need to have members in person or proxies in order to have a meeting and conduct business.

Not true. In California, certain voting, such as amending governing docs, implementing a special assessment or increasing assessments and election of directors MUST BE done via secret ballots. Those ballots, when returned to either a ballot collector or inspector of elections, if valid, will always count towards quorum.

usually. I asked Henry for a quote. I'm curious, can you conduct (other) business at such a CA meeting?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Jeff,

Such as?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

We can conduct other business at the Members Meeting in CA if the topics are on the agenda which is posted well in advance of the meeting. With Max, what other kinds of business beyond the election is likely on a meeting of the Members agenda?

I think Henry already cited the New WA (his state) code, but maybe not.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/20/2021 6:39 PM

Posted By HenryS7 on 12/18/2021 1:30 AM
... every ballot we receive in advance counts as meeting attendance for quorum purposes... We need to get 1/4 of all homeowners to either attend the meeting or vote ahead of time in order to conduct business at the annual meeting

It usually doesn't work that way. Can you copy the text from your documents or state law that says that a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting?

The number of votes cast by ballot must equal or exceed the quorum required to be present at a meeting. However, this does not mean a ballot counts for quorum at a meeting. Voting by ballot accomplishes the same thing as an in-person meeting, but without the meeting.

If you receive enough ballots to meet the quorum requirement, then the election counts, but you can't have a meeting unless you get a quorum of members at your meeting (in person or by proxy). You still need to have members in person or proxies in order to have a meeting and conduct business.

I'm not an attorney, and the advice that we got came from our attorneys who represent homeowners assocations and are well versed in the law. We defer to them for advice on how to run our association.

However, to answer your question, there is a Washington state law that allows for absentee voting. Our attorneys have the opinion that voting as an absentee homeowner (in advance) is the same thing as being there in person, so they count for quorum.

I'm still working up the details about how we are going to have a in-person vote at the meeting. Likely, I will add a QR code to each slide of the presentation that links to the ballot, and ask people to scan the QR code with their phones and vote that way should they choose to vote in person.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I think you do one or the other, either online vote, if allowed by Washington state law, or paper ballots.

HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/21/2021 9:29 AM
I think you do one or the other, either online vote, if allowed by Washington state law, or paper ballots.

Washington law allows for both paper ballots and electronic voting. Only catch to electronic voting is we have to validate that the person voting has the right to do so. I created an electronic ballot with such security, which I won't describe here, and believe that we can accept either paper ballots or electronic ballots for the upcoming election.