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DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Hi,

Our HOA recently ran an election where homeowners had to turn in secret ballots by mail or to the MC.

One board member running for reelection showed up at the MC the day before election with 15 sealed envelopes. Then other board members received emails and txt messages saying that board member pressured them to vote for her and help turn in their ballots for them. (Older retirees).

Of course at the election she denied any harassment and said owners asked for help so what was she going to do, not help them. That all envelopes were sealed before she touched them.

The decided to throw out the election, shred the ballots and start over.

Since then, a different board member did his unit and voted me in as treasurer.

What suggestions do you have?

I am pushing current board members to get opinion letter from a lawyer on what to do. They are hesitant. And think we will need a meeting soon for those homeowners to express their issues and the board member to make a statement.

This person is still on the board and wants to be president ( was president a couple years ago).

We will be going through a large retrofit project (700k) and ppl think she is wanting to be in charge to get kick backs as they think she did in past but no proof.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
I'm not sure what the issue is. If the board threw out the election because it was believed to be tainted and had a new election, did that not solve the problem?

Assuming the board member actually wants to be in charge of a large project for nefarious reasons, why would she get that position? She is one board member with one vote. It should not be a problem.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
We are in the process of running a new election. It hasn't started. Election that was thrown out was Dec 5, 2020.

The issue is nothing stops her from doing the same thing with intimidating owners again.

We are also on cumulative voting. So each unit gets 5 votes. She is trying to get herself and two others with enough votes to take over.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 12/16/2021 1:57 PM
We are in the process of running a new election. It hasn't started. Election that was thrown out was Dec 5, 2020.

The issue is nothing stops her from doing the same thing with intimidating owners again.

We are also on cumulative voting. So each unit gets 5 votes. She is trying to get herself and two others with enough votes to take over.

Do you have a set of Election Rules, current with laws that went into effect January 1, 2020?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
In California, under no circumstance, should a board member be handling any ballots prior to the opening of the ballots.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Nope, they were trying to update but this same board member was telling owners not to vote for it.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Then, until Elections Rules are in place, elections can't take place.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
David,

You say you had an election on December 5, 2020 and ballots were mailed to the MC. Who opened the ballots, or who was the Inspector of Elections?
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
They had a previous board member (owner) act as the Inspector of Elections. Now because of what happened we are looking doing:

1. Updating the election rules. Will send letter and follow the law for change. Requires 75% of owner approval.

2. Hold new election and pay company to be Inspector. After appropriate time of new rules (if they pass) from Sterling act.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 12/16/2021 2:42 PM
They had a previous board member (owner) act as the Inspector of Elections. Now because of what happened we are looking doing:

1. Updating the election rules. Will send letter and follow the law for change. Requires 75% of owner approval.

2. Hold new election and pay company to be Inspector. After appropriate time of new rules (if they pass) from Sterling act.

Election Rules do not need Owner approval.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 12/16/2021 2:42 PM
They had a previous board member (owner) act as the Inspector of Elections. Now because of what happened we are looking doing:

1. Updating the election rules. Will send letter and follow the law for change. Requires 75% of owner approval.

2. Hold new election and pay company to be Inspector. After appropriate time of new rules (if they pass) from Sterling act.

Election Rules do not need Owner approval.

Read the following

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Election-Rules-Required
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am also confused how one gets elected to an officer position by the membership? Generally the HOA members vote for board members. It is then an election amongst the board members who vote in for officer positions. So it would be the board that would vote for who is President, Treasurer, Secretary, and/or Vice President.

Former HOA President
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Our bylaws require it. They haven't been updated since 2012
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
I just read bylaws and any chance requires majority home owner approval. So perhaps 51%
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
If she and her two grieves are elected they have the majority and can choose who is in what position.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Why, David, does each residence get 5 votes? Is it because there are five openings on your Board? How many are supposed to be on your Board? It's not clear you know what cumulative voting means. Is it required by your bylaws?

What size is your HOA?

David wrote: "Since then, a different board member did his unit and voted me in as treasurer. " 1st, I don't understand the first part of your sentence "did his unit,"please clarify. How could he, a director I presume, appoint you as treasurer when you apparently aren't currently on the Board. Plus, The whole Board must vote on officers.

Max is right: 1. Election rules don't need a vote by Owners. What does 75% mean? It is a rule change and just needs to go to Owners for a 28-day comment period. 2. Owners must mail in their ballots; if they cannot take them in person or attend the annual meeting no one should handle or "deliver" the ballots.

It is the Davis-Stirling Act.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What did she threaten to do, shoot the homeowners if they didn't fill out the form? Intimidation is a loaded word, so I'd have to talk to these homeowners to see what happened and why they felt intimidated (why not toss the lady out of the house?)

As for the kickback business, it doesn't sound like anyone has proof of that so ignore it. If they don't want to vote for her, they don't have to and perhaps there will be enough votes against her to vote her out. Don't make this complicated.

you don't need an attorney for this. you said the ballots are tossed and are starting over, so do it. Maybe the next election should be held during a live meeting where people can raise their hands when they want to vote for a certain candidate meeting. Or have them stop by and complete ballots like people do at regular elections. They place the ballots in a locked box, which is opened in front everyone and the ballots are counted.

Skip the proxies- let people mail in their ballots, placing them in an envelope and then putting that in another envelope and mail it in. Those envelopes are also opened and counted at the meeting. Your counters should be people who aren't running for office

If your board appoints offers from among themselves, so what if she wants to be president? The rest of you have to appoint the officers and she's only one vote. Vote your conscious and call it a day.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
RETURNING BALLOTS TO THE INSPECTOR

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Delivering-Ballots
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I do not think David's BOD has made a good case for over turning the election other then they do not want a particular person on the BOD. It seems to me the "ballot" collector played within the rules even if one does not agree with the results.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/17/2021 9:23 AM
I do not think David's BOD has made a good case for over turning the election other then they do not want a particular person on the BOD. It seems to me the "ballot" collector played within the rules even if one does not agree with the results.

Without Election Rules, the association CANNOT conduct an election. Period
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Always appreciate your insights, Shelia, but in this case, too much of what you suggest doesn't mesh with CA statutes.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Sorry for mistyped.

We have 5 open positions, and the bylaws call out that homeowners get 5 votes to apply how ever they want. All 5 votes for one person or 1 for for different people.

Our bylaws state any change to election rules require a majority of homeowner approval. Sorry not 75%.

Right after the election was thrown out, the treasurer resigned because he sold his unit and is closing in 1 week. 3 of 4 remaining board members vote me to replace him and take treasurer position.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
I agree with your assessment. This is how we are proceeding.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
David, please cite the exact words in your bylaws that state 50% of Owners must approve changing the election rules. Even if your bylaws state that, they are are wrong. Election rules are exactly that: Rules. They only need to be set to Owners for a 28 day comment period before a board approves them in CA. If an HOA attorney put what you state is in your bylaws about election rules , s/he should be fired.

How did one director appoint you as treasurer, David. The whole board must do that. Some things just aren't adding up here.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
David,

You quote from your Bylaws, but the document you should be referring to, regarding elections, is your Election Rules. Your Bylaws, unless updated annually by a vote of the members, will be obsolete.
How old is your association and when was the last time your Bylaws were updated or amended?

Does you management company handle just HOA's or do they also manage rental property as well. Sometimes these management company's primary focus is rental and they are not as knowledgeable in HOA laws as they should be.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2021 4:19 PM
David, please cite the exact words in your bylaws that state 50% of Owners must approve changing the election rules. Even if your bylaws state that, they are are wrong. Election rules are exactly that: Rules. They only need to be set to Owners for a 28 day comment period before a board approves them in CA. If an HOA attorney put what you state is in your bylaws about election rules , s/he should be fired.

How did one director appoint you as treasurer, David. The whole board must do that. Some things just aren't adding up here.

Three of the four remaining board members voted me as treasurer.

Sorry, "By laws may be amended or repealed and now bylaws may be adopted by the adopted by the vote or written consent of the majority of the voting power of the member's present"

The bylaws were last updated July 2012 with a majority over 50% in favor.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Last updated July 2012. MC only handles HOAs. I am still trying to get an understanding of all the different docs and how they work.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 12/20/2021 10:25 AM

Sorry, "By laws may be amended or repealed and now bylaws may be adopted by the adopted by the vote or written consent of the majority of the voting power of the member's present"

The bylaws were last updated July 2012 with a majority over 50% in favor.
Bylaws and Election Rules are different animals, when it comes to amending.

The Board can amend Election Rules. No vote of the owners is necessary.

Only the owners can amend the Bylaws.

Davis-Stirling covers Election Rules in exhaustive detail. KerryL1's posts on this reflect massive experience with Election Rules and recent changes to the California statutes on this subject.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidP29 on 12/18/2021 9:36 PM
Sorry for mistyped.

We have 5 open positions, and the bylaws call out that homeowners get 5 votes to apply how ever they want. All 5 votes for one person or 1 for for different people.

Our bylaws state any change to election rules require a majority of homeowner approval. Sorry not 75%.

Right after the election was thrown out, the treasurer resigned because he sold his unit and is closing in 1 week. 3 of 4 remaining board members vote me to replace him and take treasurer position.

This is Cumulative Voting. Typically how corporate elections go meaning the more shares one holds, the more votes they get. Used sparingly in governmental voting. One of the things we had our declarant remove before we owners took over.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So, David, the question now is: does your HOA have election rules?? They've been required in CA since '06, and many changes were made to what they must contain eff. 1/20. Do visit Davis-stirling.com, Elections.

thanks for clarifying your appointment as treasurer. We assume the Board also appointed you as a director, right?

I also am so wondering: If you have five directors, per your bylaws, are all five seats supposed to be filled at the next election? How long are there terms for directors? Do your bylaws require "staggered" terms?

DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2021 11:41 AM
So, David, the question now is: does your HOA have election rules?? They've been required in CA since '06, and many changes were made to what they must contain eff. 1/20. Do visit Davis-stirling.com, Elections.

thanks for clarifying your appointment as treasurer. We assume the Board also appointed you as a director, right?

I also am so wondering: If you have five directors, per your bylaws, are all five seats supposed to be filled at the next election? How long are there terms for directors? Do your bylaws require "staggered" terms?


I am just a treasurer, not director. Not sure what director means.
Right now trying to understand the rules and how things work because it seems that current board has gotten lazy. The previous president not board member refuses to do anything because she hates the current president and is pushing to get elected. 2 other board members don't live on site and schedules are busy to show up and do stuff.

Our bylaws do not require staggered. All five are to be filled in next election. Normally a term is 2 years. The current board used Covid and moved to online meeting and delayed the last election. They have been on the board now for 3 years.

We had the election this past December 5th but because of the issues of the previous president showing up with 15 or so ballots(in envelopes)(20% of the total vote) it was decided to throw out the election and start over.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2021 11:41 AM
So, David, the question now is: does your HOA have election rules?? They've been required in CA since '06, and many changes were made to what they must contain eff. 1/20. Do visit Davis-stirling.com, Elections.

thanks for clarifying your appointment as treasurer. We assume the Board also appointed you as a director, right?

I also am so wondering: If you have five directors, per your bylaws, are all five seats supposed to be filled at the next election? How long are there terms for directors? Do your bylaws require "staggered" terms?


I am just a treasurer, not director. Not sure what director means.
Right now trying to understand the rules and how things work because it seems that current board has gotten lazy. The previous president not board member refuses to do anything because she hates the current president and is pushing to get elected. 2 other board members don't live on site and schedules are busy to show up and do stuff.

Our bylaws do not require staggered. All five are to be filled in next election. Normally a term is 2 years. The current board used Covid and moved to online meeting and delayed the last election. They have been on the board now for 3 years.

We had the election this past December 5th but because of the issues of the previous president showing up with 15 or so ballots(in envelopes)(20% of the total vote) it was decided to throw out the election and start over.
DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100
Posted:
Sorry. Previous president now* board member.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
A director, David, is a member of the board of directors. I think you need to read your bylaws to learn the "lingo" of your HOA.

When there are vacancies on a board, it may appoint a director who'll serve th remainder of the term (usually). Otherwise, Owerns elect directors/board members. The directors/board member, i.e, "the Board" elects officers.

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