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How likely is it plaintiffs could get a claim against individual homeowners from an HOA negligence suit?

Started by RogerJ142 replies • 786 views

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RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
My POA, with county roads and prior county traffic control signs, recently replaced the county signs with custom signs, owned by the POA. As part of its agreement with the county, the POA took over legal liability for personal injury and property damage related to the signs. It also gave as its reason for replacing the signs its desire to improve the safety of the traffic flow.

If someone were to get injured related to the signs and the claim was ruled more than any insurance the POA has, and more than the POA's funds, how likely is it the plaintiffs would have claims against homeowners for the remainder?

In researching I found a legal article that indicated a plaintiff could come after homeowners in such a somewhat similar situation if negligence were shown: https://archive.naplesnews.com/business/richard-white-what-is-my-personal-liability-when-a-hoa-is-sued-ep-512505036-330911801.html/

How realistic is this risk to POA homeowners?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
As long as you are incorporated and the roads belong to the corporation, unlikely.
However, the Association would likely have to impose a special assessment to pay the amount ordered by the court, or declare bankruptcy (yes some HOAs have had to do that after a court cost).

If the Association declares bankruptcy, it's possible that the court might appoint a receiver until the bankruptcy is finalized.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/12/2021 11:53 AM
As long as you are incorporated and the roads belong to the corporation, unlikely.
However, the Association would likely have to impose a special assessment to pay the amount ordered by the court, or declare bankruptcy (yes some HOAs have had to do that after a court cost).

If the Association declares bankruptcy, it's possible that the court might appoint a receiver until the bankruptcy is finalized.

Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.

Would a receiver, if a bankruptcy and a court appointed one, have authority to access a special assessment?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Just look at what happened in one Las Vegas HOA.

https://www.fox5vegas.com/news/swing-set-collapses-on-teens-head-jury-orders-las-vegas-hoa-to-pay-20-million/article_e49b5187-31ed-59a2-bf16-4c17dc0f9d50.html

Basically everyone legally would have to give up their home to the plaintiff. But the plaintiff in this case is not going after the full 20 million.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 12/12/2021 12:16 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 12/12/2021 11:53 AM
As long as you are incorporated and the roads belong to the corporation, unlikely.
However, the Association would likely have to impose a special assessment to pay the amount ordered by the court, or declare bankruptcy (yes some HOAs have had to do that after a court cost).

If the Association declares bankruptcy, it's possible that the court might appoint a receiver until the bankruptcy is finalized.


Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.

Would a receiver, if a bankruptcy and a court appointed one, have authority to access a special assessment?

Agreeing to take liability for what exactly???
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 12/12/2021 1:02 PM
Posted By RogerJ1 on 12/12/2021 12:16 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 12/12/2021 11:53 AM
As long as you are incorporated and the roads belong to the corporation, unlikely.
However, the Association would likely have to impose a special assessment to pay the amount ordered by the court, or declare bankruptcy (yes some HOAs have had to do that after a court cost).

If the Association declares bankruptcy, it's possible that the court might appoint a receiver until the bankruptcy is finalized.


Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.

Would a receiver, if a bankruptcy and a court appointed one, have authority to access a special assessment?


Agreeing to take liability for what exactly???

Start of agreement, both parties give reason for entering agreement for the Subdivision to control traffic safety via custom signs. Then in the body of the agreement, the county requires the POA to carry 100/100/300K minimum liability insurance related to personal injury and property damaged related to the signs "at all times" with the county added as insured in the insurance.

I am not an attorney but I assume stating the reason for entering the agreement is to control traffic safety and insurance requirements being imposed and accepted by the POA would be explicit acceptance of such liability.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
RogerJ1, in seeking an answer to your question here, may I ask what your goal is? Are you going to confront the board, possibly saying it was wrong to sign the agreement? Are you trying to find reasons to remove certain directors, either through a recall or via the next annual election? Are you not happy with the current board? Do you intend to run for the board?
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/12/2021 2:20 PM
RogerJ1, in seeking an answer to your question here, may I ask what your goal is?

To determine if a risk at all and/or very remote chance of ever happening, or if it is a real risk that membership should be aware exists.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I think the owners face the same risk for any part of the HOA's common area: Anyone could sue and potentially win as much as a court is willing to award.

Why don't you run for the board?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are these signs you talking about actual "Stop/Yield" signs or "Street names" signs? The HOA should have no business involving itself making official Stop/Yield signs. That involves so many other laws and not just insurance. Street name signs can be up for debate. However, they could be an issue with insurance if damaged or causes damage.

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
You may get a better answer if you talk to an attorney or an insurance professional.

I would be asking the same questions in your position and would question the wisdom of taking on any kind of liability for county-owned property in order to have special signs. I can practically guarantee that if anyone is injured and sues the county, the county's attorney will claim that the signs weren't visible enough (regardless of the accuracy of that statement).
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/13/2021 4:27 AM
Are these signs you talking about actual "Stop/Yield" signs or "Street names" signs? The HOA should have no business involving itself making official Stop/Yield signs. That involves so many other laws and not just insurance. Street name signs can be up for debate. However, they could be an issue with insurance if damaged or causes damage.

Both - street names and stop signs on eight posts throughout the subdivision, including two county roads entering a state highway.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Edit: Three intersections where county roads, in subdivision, enter a state highway (FM-Texas road.)
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Also, to clarify what I am asking: Real risk, or nonexistent and/or extremely remote, that the corporate veil (POA is Inc.) could be pierced and plaintiffs could come after members successfully for amounts in excess of insurance and POA funds?

In other words, if the POA lost all its funds that would be bad but not life changing for members, but if there is a real risk that plaintiffs could come after members, I think membership should know about that risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Roger

My first blush is you are against the new signs and are searching for reasons for it to not happen. Am I correct?
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Will the signs meet federal/state DOT standards? I mean will the county allow you to put up sub-standard signs? Is the reason for the signs because they are prettier or are designed to match the rest of the signs in the neighborhood?

I can't believe the county would turn over this responsibility to the neighborhood unless it was a considerable cost savings for them. What incentive to they have to let the community print their own signs?

Do the signs have to have a sign-off from the county before installation? If so, then I think your liability would be very low since the county had final say.

I think we need a bigger picture here.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 12/13/2021 11:09 AM
Also, to clarify what I am asking: Real risk, or nonexistent and/or extremely remote, that the corporate veil (POA is Inc.) could be pierced and plaintiffs could come after members successfully for amounts in excess of insurance and POA funds?

In other words, if the POA lost all its funds that would be bad but not life changing for members, but if there is a real risk that plaintiffs could come after members, I think membership should know about that risk.

Something like that could happen if the POA fails to renew its corporate status, which means you'd lose your insurance altogether. This happens occasionally in communities where nobody runs for the board for several years and homeowners pretend that there is no association.

The other thing that could happen is that your POA doesn't have enough insurance coverage to satisfy a judgement awarded in court. But a number of things would have to happen first, and it's not a guaranteed outcome.

So it's a real risk, but I have no idea how likely it is because I don't have enough info.

You really should talk to a lawyer and/or insurance professional - they deal with these sorts of things and could talk about court cases and the odds of this happening. In addition, a lawyer can write up a demand letter addressing the issue if it's a valid concern, and a lawyer would get more attention from the board than a homeowner hopping up and down. Most of us here are neither lawyers nor insurance folks. As I'd said earlier, I question the wisdom of what the board has agreed to and in your position I'd take my own advice about talking to the pros.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 12/13/2021 12:46 PM
Will the signs meet federal/state DOT standards?

Update: None of the ~8 signs meet minimum National, State or County minimum clearance for traffic control signs. This concerns me both from a legal liability for the POA and its members, but my own safety, as I routinely job in the neighborhood.

National, States (TX-DoT) and my County (I confirmed with the County Engineer department) call for residential and urban stop signs (rule is if vehicles are likely to park on the roads and/or if pedestrians are common on the roads) to be at minimum 7 feet above the road level - the bottom of the signs must clear at least 7 feet from road level. This standard is to prevent blind spots to drivers created by low signs and to prevent parked vehicles from blocking signs.

I went up to each sign, while standing on the road. I measured none but based on my height, I can tell most are two to three inches above 5 feet from the road level - one is probably below 5 feet and looks weird (like a kid trail stop sign it is so low.)

Every since I noticed this, I have paid attention to stop signs in other nearby neighborhoods. They look they are in the sky compared to how low my subdivision's new signs are.

Also, last Sunday I drove into many other nearby neighborhoods to stop at the signs to see were their signs were in my field of vision while stopped at them. None blocked my vision - at most, I would see a small strip of the stop sign bottom in the very top of the right portion of my windshield. Then I drove through my neighbor looking for the same thing. I found a good percentage of the right portion of my windshield is blocked by most of the signs when stopped at them. It is a noticeable blind spot - and I could see how a pedestrian could be lost in it. The vehicle I was driving is a medium sized SUV. Car drivers would probably have less of a problem, and drivers of larger SUVs would have more of a problem - and full sized SUVs are very popular in my area.

RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 12/13/2021 12:46 PM

I can't believe the county would turn over this responsibility to the neighborhood unless it was a considerable cost savings for them. What incentive to they have to let the community print their own signs?

Actually this is also a bad legal angle for my subdivision. The reason both parties, POA and County, gave for entering the contract allowing the POA to replace county signs with custom signs is "to encourage drivers to operate vehicles in a safe manner within the Subdivision." The consideration given by my POA is "to address traffic safety concerns within the Subdivision."

Yet safety was never discussed at the previous annual meeting where the membership voted to pursue custom signs - all the talk was about "how nice they would look."

Also, it seem negligent if the POA did this "to address traffic safety concerns" and the sign placement does not meet minimum safety standards (see my reply before this one.)
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
It sounds like you don't believe that the signs meet the county's standards. Is this right? If so why haven't you asked them for these standards so that you can actually measure them and find out? Right now it appears all of your conclusions are based on opinion.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 12/13/2021 12:46 PM

Do the signs have to have a sign-off from the county before installation? If so, then I think your liability would be very low since the county had final say.

Yes, the contract calls for signs to meet all County standards and requirements and County approval on locations. But I do not think any of that was done. I based that opinion on the situation that the Board president knows nothing about the contract - she was asked and she answered that she knows nothing about it. A copy of the contract was sent to her but she does not seem interested in it.

When I first contacted the county engineer department, my question did not refer to my subdivision. All I asked is if the national and Texas (TX DoT) 7 feet minimum standard applied to County roads. The answer was yes and the engineer, being helpful, asked if there were some signs and streets I wanted him to review. I then replied telling him about the situation with my subdivision. I did not hear back from him that day. That night I though since the situation is unique, it would be helpful to forward him the contract (it is a public contract because the County's commissioner court that approved it posted it on their minutes page - that is how I got it.) The next morning, he sent me an email telling me it was an HOA situation, but 5 minutes later he sent me another email, in reference to the contract email I had sent that night, saying the situation would have to be reviewed in a meeting with several county departments - he included four other people in the email. I looked up those people and they are fairly high level county officials. I then replied asking if the county did or did not approve the placement of the current standing custom signs that replaced the county signs. I received no answer - that was a week ago but with holiday vacations, they might not have been able to have that meeting yet I assume.

Based on the high level officials called for the meeting, I assume that engineers department know of no approval, but that is only my assumption.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/24/2021 3:06 PM
It sounds like you don't believe that the signs meet the county's standards. Is this right? If so why haven't you asked them for these standards so that you can actually measure them and find out? Right now it appears all of your conclusions are based on opinion.

Again the national and state minimum clearance is 7 feet. And a county official answered me that the county's clearance requirement is also 7 feet. And there is no need for me to actual measure them to know they are not 7 feet. Most come to my shoulder or chin, so unless I should be in the Guinness book of world records as one of the tallest humans in history, they are not near 7 feet.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Hate to say it as this will throw everyone in your HOA under the bus essentially, need to call your local Code enforcement. The code enforcement department can come out to issue corrective orders or face fines. I don't like to say it as if your HOA was to face fines, EVERY MEMBER will have to pay to cover them. Plus they will have to cover the costs of correcting the issue.

Many people probably would say "Why care?". I suspect that will be the reaction many will say. However, there are very much serious ramifications along the lines of safety here. Codes are there for a reason. They are engineered to be the heights and designs that they are.

So if they don't listen to correct, then you have no choice but have code enforcement to come out and inspect. Just don't expect any more Christmas Cards this year from your neighbors...

Former HOA President
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/24/2021 4:01 PM
Hate to say it as this will throw everyone in your HOA under the bus essentially, need to call your local Code enforcement. The code enforcement department can come out to issue corrective orders or face fines. I don't like to say it as if your HOA was to face fines, EVERY MEMBER will have to pay to cover them. Plus they will have to cover the costs of correcting the issue.

Many people probably would say "Why care?". I suspect that will be the reaction many will say. However, there are very much serious ramifications along the lines of safety here. Codes are there for a reason. They are engineered to be the heights and designs that they are.

So if they don't listen to correct, then you have no choice but have code enforcement to come out and inspect. Just don't expect any more Christmas Cards this year from your neighbors...

I am not sure we have code enforcement, but after seeing how much of blind spot the signs cause a driver, I am concerned about my own safety since I jog 3 or 4 times a week in the neighborhood. The majority to almost all drivers just slow at stop signs, and some jackrabbit start after slowing. If I, or anyone else, were in a blind spot to the driver because of the sign, they might plow into me. The way some jackrabbit start, it was still be a lot of force and if the driver were not paying attention, they could drag someone they hit but never saw.

Also, if even an average wage earner got killed, a lifetime wage claim if it went against membership after exhausting a small POA's funds, would be far more than any enforcement fines I assume. Plus I would not want some to die or be harmed, if I could prevent it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Call up your county courthouse to find out if there is a code department. Most cities have them. Not sure about on the County level. The thing about code enforcement, it has to be "seen" to be enforced. They have to see a code violation in action with their own eyes. It's not like you can send pictures or write letters. Those may get them out there but enforcement is on them.

I know how frustrating it can be. Have had to deal with the code enforcement a few time for various things. If you don't have a code department you should have a street department maybe?

It is hard to report your own POA your a member of knowing subjecting it to possible expensive fines. However, there are certain situations when it comes to health and safety one has to. Good luck!

Former HOA President
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/24/2021 6:26 PM
Call up your county courthouse to find out if there is a code department. Most cities have them. Not sure about on the County level. The thing about code enforcement, it has to be "seen" to be enforced. They have to see a code violation in action with their own eyes. It's not like you can send pictures or write letters. Those may get them out there but enforcement is on them.

I know how frustrating it can be. Have had to deal with the code enforcement a few time for various things. If you don't have a code department you should have a street department maybe?

It is hard to report your own POA your a member of knowing subjecting it to possible expensive fines. However, there are certain situations when it comes to health and safety one has to. Good luck!

I found a code enforcement department for my county, but everything about its statement indicates it mainly, maybe exclusively deals, with building codes. I suspect the Engineering department, which I have contacted, is over street signs. The problem is I suspect this situation is rare. There are private developments that own their own roads, which I assume handle their street signs, but I doubt there are many subdivision with public roads that take on that responsibility. The Engineer was very quick to respond to my original email and he seemed sincere in checking on county owned signs, but then he seemed thrown for a loop when I described the situation. I will wait to see if his department responds to my question whether the county approved of the current signs or not. If no answer a few weeks after the holidays, I could check with the code enforcement department..
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Code departments apply to many areas NOT just building codes. The reason I had to contact the CODES department was because it was the "code" to install "No parking" signs when our streets became public. Our HOA bans signs but for "For Sale/Rent". Plus the city would have to install the "No parking signs" every like a few hundred feet. It would have looked atrocious. Plus wreaked havoc for lawncare.

So had to get an ordinance created with the city for us to be allowed "Paint curbs Red" for no parking. Painting the curbs red and blue for handicapped areas looked much better. It was much easier to enforce and see.

It was then we had to also go through the entire neighborhood for placing of the street signs. Plus we had to decide which ones would be "yield/stop" at intersections. We had to cut down a few trees for stop sign. Plus one fence was blocking the view so it was shortened down to 4 feet.

So I know that atleast our code enforcement does cover street codes for parking. Had to also include the fire department and local representative as well. Fire department to make sure fire hydrants not blocked. Local representative to make the ordinance with the city.

Former HOA President
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 My POA, with county roads and prior county traffic control signs, recently replaced the county signs with custom signs, owned by the POA. As part of its agreement with the county, the POA took over legal liability for personal injury and property damage related to the signs.
It also gave as its reason for replacing the signs its desire to improve the safety of the traffic flow.
Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.
. . . . None of the ~8 signs meet minimum National, State or County minimum clearance for traffic control signs. National, States (TX-DoT) and my County (I confirmed with the County Engineer department) call for residential and urban stop signs (rule is if vehicles are likely to park on the roads and/or if pedestrians are common on the roads) to be at minimum 7 feet above the road level - the bottom of the signs must clear at least 7 feet from road level. This standard is to prevent blind spots to drivers created by low signs and to prevent parked vehicles from blocking signs.

. . . . . The reason both parties, POA and County, gave for entering the contract allowing the POA to replace county signs with custom signs is "to encourage drivers to operate vehicles in a safe manner within the Subdivision." The consideration given by my POA is "to address traffic safety concerns within the Subdivision."

. . . . Again the national and state minimum clearance is 7 feet. And a county official answered me that the county's clearance requirement is also 7 feet. . . . .

1- Whether or not the Association-installed signage is non-compliant or allegedly backstopped by insurance, DOES THE ASSOCIATION EVEN HAVE JURISDICTION upfront ( under Texas law ) to purport to expose its stakeholders to the consequences of extra-territorial risk-taking ? Or road safety ? ( OP says the roads are county owned ) Let alone under whatever covenants on titles ?

2 - Wonder if the association's current insurer(s) has contracted to accept the risks purportedly being accepted ? Or will do so ? Or has even been canvassed ?

A further critical issue : where some level of government is solely responsible for some public property, there usually are steepest possible legal barriers against successful claims for injury/loss eg short deadlines to file a claim . . . . And taxpayers to fund defences & insurance.

But for the association, what here ?

3 - Regardless of 1 & 2 above, if I / my insurer were fighting liability after some sorta injury or loss the adequacy of those signs would be among the potential targets.

I / my insurer would have every reason to argue some sorta causal contribution by the signs. Or by their future deterioration / underheight / blind-spotting etc

"Encouraging safer vehicle operation" or not, the association's signage could potentially drag it into every loss or injury litigation after an accident on the county's road.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
If the situation was that concerning, I would contact your homeowners policy agent and add loss assessment coverage. That is a homeowners addendum akin to D&O insurance.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 12/25/2021 1:59 PM
Posted By RogerJ1 My POA, with county roads and prior county traffic control signs, recently replaced the county signs with custom signs, owned by the POA. As part of its agreement with the county, the POA took over legal liability for personal injury and property damage related to the signs.
It also gave as its reason for replacing the signs its desire to improve the safety of the traffic flow.
Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.
. . . . None of the ~8 signs meet minimum National, State or County minimum clearance for traffic control signs. National, States (TX-DoT) and my County (I confirmed with the County Engineer department) call for residential and urban stop signs (rule is if vehicles are likely to park on the roads and/or if pedestrians are common on the roads) to be at minimum 7 feet above the road level - the bottom of the signs must clear at least 7 feet from road level. This standard is to prevent blind spots to drivers created by low signs and to prevent parked vehicles from blocking signs.

. . . . . The reason both parties, POA and County, gave for entering the contract allowing the POA to replace county signs with custom signs is "to encourage drivers to operate vehicles in a safe manner within the Subdivision." The consideration given by my POA is "to address traffic safety concerns within the Subdivision."

. . . . Again the national and state minimum clearance is 7 feet. And a county official answered me that the county's clearance requirement is also 7 feet. . . . .


1- Whether or not the Association-installed signage is non-compliant or allegedly backstopped by insurance, DOES THE ASSOCIATION EVEN HAVE JURISDICTION upfront ( under Texas law ) to purport to expose its stakeholders to the consequences of extra-territorial risk-taking ? Or road safety ? ( OP says the roads are county owned ) Let alone under whatever covenants on titles ?

2 - Wonder if the association's current insurer(s) has contracted to accept the risks purportedly being accepted ? Or will do so ? Or has even been canvassed ?

A further critical issue : where some level of government is solely responsible for some public property, there usually are steepest possible legal barriers against successful claims for injury/loss eg short deadlines to file a claim . . . . And taxpayers to fund defences & insurance.

But for the association, what here ?

3 - Regardless of 1 & 2 above, if I / my insurer were fighting liability after some sorta injury or loss the adequacy of those signs would be among the potential targets.

I / my insurer would have every reason to argue some sorta causal contribution by the signs. Or by their future deterioration / underheight / blind-spotting etc

"Encouraging safer vehicle operation" or not, the association's signage could potentially drag it into every loss or injury litigation after an accident on the county's road.


Thanks but this makes me feel more concerned as it puts in word, about what I was worried.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Update:

I formerly asked the Board: 1) if the County required insurance is in place after installation of the signs as the County contract required and 2) if the County approved the location and design of the signs before installation, also as the Contract requires.

The Board would not answer - reply was that the Board would have to discuss.

Based on 1) location of signs (some are far from where the original stop signs and some of the new locations cause drivers, stopped at the signs, to have completely blocked left and right vision, so I doubt the County approved those locations), 2) height of signs - well below County standards, and 3) how openly the Board answered other questions in the past, I am all but certain the answers to both of those questions is "no."

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Well atleast you got a buzz in the board's ear. That is all you can do at this point. Sometimes you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Let them keep drinking their milk till it spills... Just protect yourself by talking to your insurance company.

Former HOA President
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/30/2021 3:32 PM
Just protect yourself by talking to your insurance company.

I understand the potential risk if plaintiffs came after membership, but how would homeowners' insurance be helpful?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I believe there may be additional insurance coverage you can add onto your own policy for extra protections when dealing with HOA situations. Talk to insurance company to see what may apply. Cost extra but may help in the off extra liability of paying a HOA lawsuit participation. A few other posters here may know more about those options.

Former HOA President
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Update: The person, on the Board, who signed the contract and installed the signs, assured the association that everything was fine with insurance and the installation of the signs at a meeting a few weeks ago.

This evening, that same Board member is out on ladder taking the stop signs down, measuring distance to the ground, and then reinstalling the signs much higher.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Thanks for the update.

Remember that everyone has their own learning curve.
I bet that board member now knows more about the requirements for road signs then anyone else in the development.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let me guess... They measured from the top of the sign to the ground? Good catch!

Former HOA President
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/09/2022 3:51 AM
Let me guess... They measured from the top of the sign to the ground? Good catch!

First time, the person probably did not measure at all. They were all random from probably below 5 feet to a tad over 6.

A bunch of people were out watching the guy redo them since he was doing it during rush-hour evening time. Two told me that he was measuring from the ground up the pole on the redo. That will probably be a problem too as the regulation is from road edge, not ground as the relevant clearance is for the driver's view. The post are mounted in ditches with vary from the road, some are a few inches below road edge while others are a few feet below the roads as the ditches are not uniform throughout the subdivision.

So while the County will not care probably, I doubt the person did it right the second time either.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 12/25/2021 1:59 PM
Posted By RogerJ1 My POA, with county roads and prior county traffic control signs, recently replaced the county signs with custom signs, owned by the POA. As part of its agreement with the county, the POA took over legal liability for personal injury and property damage related to the signs.
It also gave as its reason for replacing the signs its desire to improve the safety of the traffic flow.
Roads are county-owned. The POA just took over replacing the county road signs with custom signs, and in the agreement with the county to be able to do that, agreed to take liability insurance, a situation I assume causes the POA to accept such risk beyond the insurance or if it fails to buy the insurance.
. . . . None of the ~8 signs meet minimum National, State or County minimum clearance for traffic control signs. National, States (TX-DoT) and my County (I confirmed with the County Engineer department) call for residential and urban stop signs (rule is if vehicles are likely to park on the roads and/or if pedestrians are common on the roads) to be at minimum 7 feet above the road level - the bottom of the signs must clear at least 7 feet from road level. This standard is to prevent blind spots to drivers created by low signs and to prevent parked vehicles from blocking signs.

. . . . . The reason both parties, POA and County, gave for entering the contract allowing the POA to replace county signs with custom signs is "to encourage drivers to operate vehicles in a safe manner within the Subdivision." The consideration given by my POA is "to address traffic safety concerns within the Subdivision."

. . . . Again the national and state minimum clearance is 7 feet. And a county official answered me that the county's clearance requirement is also 7 feet. . . . .


1- Whether or not the Association-installed signage is non-compliant or allegedly backstopped by insurance, DOES THE ASSOCIATION EVEN HAVE JURISDICTION upfront ( under Texas law ) to purport to expose its stakeholders to the consequences of extra-territorial risk-taking ? Or road safety ? ( OP says the roads are county owned ) Let alone under whatever covenants on titles ?

2 - Wonder if the association's current insurer(s) has contracted to accept the risks purportedly being accepted ? Or will do so ? Or has even been canvassed ?

A further critical issue : where some level of government is solely responsible for some public property, there usually are steepest possible legal barriers against successful claims for injury/loss eg short deadlines to file a claim . . . . And taxpayers to fund defences & insurance.

But for the association, what here ?

3 - Regardless of 1 & 2 above, if I / my insurer were fighting liability after some sorta injury or loss the adequacy of those signs would be among the potential targets.

I / my insurer would have every reason to argue some sorta causal contribution by the signs. Or by their future deterioration / underheight / blind-spotting etc

"Encouraging safer vehicle operation" or not, the association's signage could potentially drag it into every loss or injury litigation after an accident on the county's road.


The general liability policy went up 3 fold, so the current Board decided to have NO insurance even though the situation explained in 2021 and quoted above is still in existence - e.g., the street sign contract with the County requiring to be named as "additional insured" is still in place.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Our HOA declaration does not give us the self-insurance option. Do your documents really allow your HOA not to have liability insurance? Also, the county may not be happy if they find out they aren't listed as co-insured.

Our liability insurance went up 400% this year, but we just had to bite the bullet and pay it. We have no alternative.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 06/30/2024 9:14 AM
Our HOA declaration does not give us the self-insurance option. Do your documents really allow your HOA not to have liability insurance? Also, the county may not be happy if they find out they aren't listed as co-insured.

Our liability insurance went up 400% this year, but we just had to bite the bullet and pay it. We have no alternative.

Its concerning on County actions, as it probably would not be known unless there was a lawsuit happening, then it could make a bad situation worse. I'll check on the documents. The problem is the documents are in a non-searchable format - basically picture PDF mode.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 06/30/2024 9:14 AM
Our HOA declaration does not give us the self-insurance option. Do your documents really allow your HOA not to have liability insurance?

No. The Bylaws, under a section about powers and responsibility of the Board, state, "Obtaining and carrying all insurance as provided in the Declaration, and paying the
premium cost thereof." That Bylaws point seems worthless because the Declaration does not mention one word about insurance, so that point in the Bylaws is refers to nothing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Roger,

Thanks for the multiple updates. You may want to bring this issue to the membership. Perhaps it will wake the board up or have the board replaced.

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