Master vs Sub, contracts, bills, etc

Started by AdamL1 • 7 replies • 342 views

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AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

So I have a general question about this.

So I live on a gated culdesac street within a Master HOA. We have our own HOA that's sub to the Master. It's all pretty simple. A little bit of landscaping on each corner, some green space along the sidewalks, matching mailboxes with a little light at night, no clubhouse or pool or anything.

I've been wondering about the contracts and cost-sharing. It seems that our Sub-HOA has to seek, acquire, and pay for its own contracts for everything, including even the electric bill to light the mailboxes....yet we still have to pay dues into the Master HOA. Is this normal? I would think that the master HOA's contracts and budget should cover our street as well, within the Master HOA, and really our Sub-HOA dues should just go towards anything extra we want, like a gate or extra landscaping, or extra services...

Any experience or advice? I'm starting to peel back the layers of a poorly run onion here, and it seems to me that a lot of stuff that we are doubling up on with the Master should just be included in the Master's contracts...

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Start with your documents. You know your HOA is a subset of the master, so there should be language that fleshed out the relationship between the two. Take a close look at the financial statements - does the income reflect both HOAs? Are there line items that specifically address your HOA?

What about the board? Do you have one for the sub HOA and another for the master? Where are the minutes for board meetings. Read all of that and that should help shed some light.

(You don't say how long you've been in this community, but it seems to me you should have learned at least half of this stuff when you moved in, but better late than never...)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 12/09/2021 4:47 AM
Start with your documents. You know your HOA is a subset of the master, so there should be language that fleshed out the relationship between the two. Take a close look at the financial statements - does the income reflect both HOAs? Are there line items that specifically address your HOA?

What about the board? Do you have one for the sub HOA and another for the master? Where are the minutes for board meetings. Read all of that and that should help shed some light.

(You don't say how long you've been in this community, but it seems to me you should have learned at least half of this stuff when you moved in, but better late than never...)

Yes, I've read the documents in great detail. The language is all about 'following' the Master. There is no language about cost-sharing of using the same lawn company.

Regarding financial statements, this is a bit more tricky, as the Master has been quite opaque with revealing records and financials. But yes, I have to write two checks, one to the master and one to the sub. My Dues are reflected in both HOA's.

For Boards, yes we have two separate Boards. Again, the Master's Board was been extremely opaque and hostile to reveal records and minutes. None of the Members know anything.

Going back to my Original Question...

My Sub-HOA street pays dues to the Master HOA....I should think that the Master HOA's contracts should extend onto my street for things like lawn service, mailbox lighting, etc. All the stuff that is contiguous throughout the neighborhood. If you live in a sub-hoa, how does yours work?

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 12/08/2021 9:16 PM
So I have a general question about this.

So I live on a gated culdesac street within a Master HOA. We have our own HOA that's sub to the Master. It's all pretty simple. A little bit of landscaping on each corner, some green space along the sidewalks, matching mailboxes with a little light at night, no clubhouse or pool or anything.

I've been wondering about the contracts and cost-sharing. It seems that our Sub-HOA has to seek, acquire, and pay for its own contracts for everything, including even the electric bill to light the mailboxes....yet we still have to pay dues into the Master HOA. Is this normal? I would think that the master HOA's contracts and budget should cover our street as well, within the Master HOA, and really our Sub-HOA dues should just go towards anything extra we want, like a gate or extra landscaping, or extra services...

Any experience or advice? I'm starting to peel back the layers of a poorly run onion here, and it seems to me that a lot of stuff that we are doubling up on with the Master should just be included in the Master's contracts...

Yes Adam that is very normal, You would even find different security companies in the community too. Technically The master and each sub are run as separate entities. The Master will file their own taxes as
well as each sub. etc.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Our community has a master association and three separate sub-associations. Each has their own board. If you live in a sub-association here you write two checks. The master association takes care of the common property for the whole community. In our community we have all the amenities (clubhouses, pools, etc.) and the roads and landscaping on the common property that the master association pays for. The sub-associations pay for the landscaping that is on their property, their own irrigation, and the driveways and parking spaces off the main road that are on their property.

The situation you have is very common. It may help to go back and look at the original deeds and master plans. Our master association can't perform services on one of the sub-associations property. When the deeds were done for your community, I would bet that the your cul-de-sac was deeded as separate property which is why your area has their own sub-assocation. Look at it from a community point of view - why should everyone in the master association pay for your lights and green space when that property is not owned by the master association? If the master took on your electric and landscaping then it would raise the bills for the whole association. So you would pay for it in your master bill instead of writing two checks.

The only thing that might benefit you is if you worked out a deal with the master to have them do the maintenance and your sub-association pay an amount equal to the percentage that your sub-assocation represents. So for example, if you sub is 10% of the total greenspace in the community, they could take over maintenance and then charge your sub-assocation 10% of the total charge.

Bottom line - the master doesn't own the property in your sub-association - so why should they pay for it?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 12/09/2021 8:05 AM
Our community has a master association and three separate sub-associations. Each has their own board. If you live in a sub-association here you write two checks. The master association takes care of the common property for the whole community. In our community we have all the amenities (clubhouses, pools, etc.) and the roads and landscaping on the common property that the master association pays for. The sub-associations pay for the landscaping that is on their property, their own irrigation, and the driveways and parking spaces off the main road that are on their property.

The situation you have is very common. It may help to go back and look at the original deeds and master plans. Our master association can't perform services on one of the sub-associations property. When the deeds were done for your community, I would bet that the your cul-de-sac was deeded as separate property which is why your area has their own sub-assocation. Look at it from a community point of view - why should everyone in the master association pay for your lights and green space when that property is not owned by the master association? If the master took on your electric and landscaping then it would raise the bills for the whole association. So you would pay for it in your master bill instead of writing two checks.

The only thing that might benefit you is if you worked out a deal with the master to have them do the maintenance and your sub-association pay an amount equal to the percentage that your sub-assocation represents. So for example, if you sub is 10% of the total greenspace in the community, they could take over maintenance and then charge your sub-assocation 10% of the total charge.

Bottom line - the master doesn't own the property in your sub-association - so why should they pay for it?

Very good points, but in your "look at it from..." example, Why should my street pay for the master association lights and greenspace? We are a separate property. (just playing Devils Advocate.). My street is separate from the Master HOA, why should I pay into the Master?

I like your idea about paying a % into the master contract....that would be so much better than us trying to scramble to "add on" to their contract after the fact....but that also requires competent communication from the Master, something that's severely lacking. sigh.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Do you have a sign at the entrance to your community that the master maintains - and do you give directions to people to use the sign to find your community? Do you, your friends and family and delivery trucks use the common roads to get to your house? Is the green space and sidewalks in the common area available to everyone in the community to use? Then that's why you should pay for the lights and greenspace. On the other hand, only you and your neighbors use your mailbox, your individual lights and your cul-de-sac pavement since it's not a cut-through road.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Adam

Typically a sub pays into a master is to be able to use the master's services and facilities. Service like landscaping along the way to get to the sub, pool, clubhouse, etc. I have seen subs that had their own facilities such as a pool but still they had to pay in to the master. It is not like one can pick and choose.

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