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Oh dear...what a pickle!

Started by HenryS7 • 19 replies • 457 views

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HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Oh dear, our board is in a pickle. I'm making some substitutions for privacy but otherwise the story is accurate.

Our our association is made up of freestanding cottage homes, and previous boards have said strongly that the windows in the cottage homes are a homeowner responsibility to maintain and replace. Since joining the board 2 years ago, I have fielded a large number of complaints from homeowners who believe that the windows should be the association responsibility, but have explained to them that they are not, based on what I was told by the previous board. So in all of the years that I have lived here, a large number of homeowners have replaced windows on their cottage homes at their expense.

Well, last weekend I was digging through the CC&Rs, and came across the verbiage describing homeowner versus association responsibility, and though that it defined windows as association responsibility. Just to be sure, I checked with our attorney, who concurred it was association responsibility.

All of the previous board, who made a big deal about windows being homeowner responsibility, still live here.

Thus, we are in a pickle. Changing this definition will result in a dues increase. It will upset the previous board. It will surprise homeowners. Yet, it is the right thing to do.

Any advice?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
That'll teach you to believe former board members instead of reading your governing documents for yourself. :-)

This also isn't uncommon.

In your shoes, I'd get ready to inform the entire community that owners who claimed that the windows were HOA responsibility were correct.

The bad news: assessments will need to rise.

The good news: the HOA will probably be able to get better (lower) pricing on things that homeowners previously had to pay for themselves, and the HOA will have to coordinate the work. So it's probably going to be a win for the homeowners.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
If I were on this board, I would vote to do the right thing. IMO doing the right thing is in the best interests of the corporation. Here's my proposed plan.

-- Inform the board in executive session. Explain it is executive session because you are concerned about liability. Ask the board to agree to ask the HOA attorney what the Board's options are. Ask the HOA attorney if future board meetings on this subject should be open to members.

Depending on what the HOA attorney says, ask the board to agree to the following:

-- Put out an announcement to the owners that a mistake was made. Ask owners who replaced their windows at their own expense to provide proof (receipts, photos showing the new windows, and similar).

-- Obtain an estimate of replacing windows. Choose windows that are in the best interests of the corporation. These windows may not be as nice as the windows the owners selected. That's life.

-- Reimburse owners who bought their own windows per the estimates. Perhaps do this by a credit on their accounts.

-- Come up with a plan for replacing windows in general, possibly to include an inspection of all homes' windows.

-- Re-do budgeting and reserves in the near future to reflect the various adjustments above.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Say, Henry, maybe most readers know, but I don't what are "cottage homes?"

Please give us the exact citation in your CC&Rs about the windows. (This won't imperial your privacy.) Surely the HOA doesn't pay if there is a broken window pane?

I'm asking because even in our high rise, owners are responsible for their window panes & frames (which may be replaced from the interior).
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I would get a second opinion. If these are stand alone homes, it doesn't make sense.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Responsible in what way exactly? Does it define it as replacement or approval for replacement? Big difference. Make sure understand the line before creating a new rabbit hole.
Former HOA President
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/08/2021 9:29 AM
Responsible in what way exactly? Does it define it as replacement or approval for replacement? Big difference. Make sure understand the line before creating a new rabbit hole.

That's not how documents are written.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Given your history of replacing the windows, the easiest solution may be to amend your documents to require the association to replace the windows
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 12/08/2021 6:54 AM
Oh dear, our board is in a pickle. I'm making some substitutions for privacy but otherwise the story is accurate.

Our our association is made up of freestanding cottage homes, and previous boards have said strongly that the windows in the cottage homes are a homeowner responsibility to maintain and replace. Since joining the board 2 years ago, I have fielded a large number of complaints from homeowners who believe that the windows should be the association responsibility, but have explained to them that they are not, based on what I was told by the previous board. So in all of the years that I have lived here, a large number of homeowners have replaced windows on their cottage homes at their expense.

Well, last weekend I was digging through the CC&Rs, and came across the verbiage describing homeowner versus association responsibility, and though that it defined windows as association responsibility. Just to be sure, I checked with our attorney, who concurred it was association responsibility.

All of the previous board, who made a big deal about windows being homeowner responsibility, still live here.

Thus, we are in a pickle. Changing this definition will result in a dues increase. It will upset the previous board. It will surprise homeowners. Yet, it is the right thing to do.

Any advice?

Are the windows accounted for in the reserve study, and if not, why not?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:

You're not in a pickle and previous boards no longer exist.

You have two options.

1. Change your by-laws to redefine the window replacement requirements
2. If that doesn't happen, you need to accommodate future window replacements in future budgets.

There is a small group of "cottage homes" in my sub-division that are managed by its own small board. That group originally shared the responsibility of home upkeep but the board and owners changed their by-laws to maintain common area maintenance while relieving the HOA of subsidizing every home's siding, roofs and windows.

Also, if you replace windows, create a schedule and replace all the windows, even for those you paid out of pocket.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
Agree with others so far and a few additional thoughts:
- A definition of "cottage home" as well as land/lot ownership would help me better comprehend what's going on here in regard to typical responsibility for items.
- Are windows in your reserve study and money for maintenance & repair being collected/saved? If not; why not?
- Are any other similar items in/on you homes dealt with in a similar/different manner as the windows (e.g., roof, gutters, siding, sidewalks, driveways, etc.)? Identify why treated the same and or different.
- Ensure you are reading all pertinent aspects of CC&Rs when it comes to ownership, responsibility, etc. Seek additional opinions/interpretations of what CC&Rs say.
- Reach out to former Board and ask questions.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
We are facing a similar situation. Without a lot of details it concern backyard privacy fences. A few years back a BOD made a ruling who was responsible for what. We are having our attorney look at the situation. Granted it will not cost any owner immediate money but future fence repairs will cost them more then the old BOD ruling.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let us put this into perspective. When you ask the "HOA" to pay for something or be responsible that means EVERY OWNER pays for it. That means that EVERY MEMBER's money is going to go to pay for that windows. Is every owner willing to pay for their neighbor's items?

If the HOA is in agreement it is responsible for paying for replacement and not just approving size/type/color/material, then make the change. If it were me and having gone down this hole before, I'd keep with needing to get approval before owner installs. Otherwise your facing a possible grandfathering situation...
Former HOA President
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
No pickle at all. Rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, get a quote for all windows for all homes then call for a special assessment. THERE, the association just paid for the windows.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posted:
Special Assessment for whom? Should the owners that already paid to have new windows installed pay a special assessment or just the owners that have not paid for windows to be replaced? What is the Association standard for the windows that are to be paid for by the Association Replacement Reserve? The old Board could be receiving a significant backlash from owners who trusted their decision on window replacement.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I am scratching my head with most of these responses.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I went through this similar situation. It was a nightmare and spearheaded by a self-serving jerk. The President/scam artist scumbag decided to pass along the cost of HIS repairs due to repeated flooding issues. He had to replace some Sod to cover up the drainage issue etc.

Well to get the HOA to pay or reimburse him for his expense... He voted that the HOA do a ONE time reimbursement/covering of drainage issue work. That after this period of time of 6 months, no longer the HOA would reimburse or cover the expenses of such work. (Convenient to cover HIS bills).

I was against this because it opened up a bag of worms and forced us to cough up a bunch of money we did not have. He did not expect other owners to submit their rightful claims too. So our HOA ended up deeper in debt to cover debt we really were never responsible for in the first place. It was just because he didn't like or could afford to pay for the work needed done.

Example: Your yard is flooding when it rains causing some damage with erosion. Well the problem can be fixed by adding gutters to your house. However, the HOA is NOT responsible gutters or installing them. It will no doubt fix the problem. The owner or owners get upset because they now have to buy their own gutters. So they decide since the HOA suggested this the HOA should pay for it. Well should the HOA be responsible? Should it pay for people whom did not install gutters when it was an option?

So be careful of adding this expense when it's better handled another way. Which is approving of the item NOT replacing/installing them.
Former HOA President
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/08/2021 5:32 PM
I went through this similar situation. It was a nightmare and spearheaded by a self-serving jerk. The President/scam artist scumbag decided to pass along the cost of HIS repairs due to repeated flooding issues. He had to replace some Sod to cover up the drainage issue etc.

Well to get the HOA to pay or reimburse him for his expense... He voted that the HOA do a ONE time reimbursement/covering of drainage issue work. That after this period of time of 6 months, no longer the HOA would reimburse or cover the expenses of such work. (Convenient to cover HIS bills).

I was against this because it opened up a bag of worms and forced us to cough up a bunch of money we did not have. He did not expect other owners to submit their rightful claims too. So our HOA ended up deeper in debt to cover debt we really were never responsible for in the first place. It was just because he didn't like or could afford to pay for the work needed done.

Example: Your yard is flooding when it rains causing some damage with erosion. Well the problem can be fixed by adding gutters to your house. However, the HOA is NOT responsible gutters or installing them. It will no doubt fix the problem. The owner or owners get upset because they now have to buy their own gutters. So they decide since the HOA suggested this the HOA should pay for it. Well should the HOA be responsible? Should it pay for people whom did not install gutters when it was an option?

So be careful of adding this expense when it's better handled another way. Which is approving of the item NOT replacing/installing them.

What the hell??????
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/08/2021 4:25 PM
Special Assessment for whom? Should the owners that already paid to have new windows installed pay a special assessment or just the owners that have not paid for windows to be replaced? What is the Association standard for the windows that are to be paid for by the Association Replacement Reserve? The old Board could be receiving a significant backlash from owners who trusted their decision on window replacement.

HOAs Democracy in action..
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please send text of CC&Rs on this topic, Henry.

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