Expired Lease?

Started by AnjaliV1 • 11 replies • 342 views

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AnjaliV1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Hey all,

Thanks for checking this out. Our very tiny HOA (3 unit condominium) has had constant issues with tenants in Unit 2. Owner is from China and is represented by a manager who is very unhelpful in dealing with her unruly tenants.

The issue is this. We have been working with the manager to fix several violations made by the tenants, but things have been messy because tenants refuse to cooperate. It was discovered yesterday that ever since last year, the manager has no lease with the tenants. Our CC&R's state that all leases must be in writing and that any tenants that don't follow CC&R's are a default under their lease.

What steps can we take moving forward? Money is definitely an issue due to being such a small HOA, but something must be done regarding the tenants who are a general nuisance to everyone. (Glendale, California)

Thank you so much.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Keep in mind that Tenant/renters are NOT HOA members. ALL and ANY enforcement has to go toward the owner. In this case via the manager. This may mean punitive charges like fines or sending bills for repairs. Make sure your HOA is allowed to fine first and foremost.

Our HOA if a property is in violation, we can pay out of the HOA's budget to correct/fix the violation and send the owner the bill for it. If they do not pay, then we can lien the owner for it. So if the tenant broke a "fence". We would contact the owner to repair it. If they did not do anything in a 30 day period, then we would tell them the HOA would do it. However, it is OUR choice of contractor and price we pay for it. That bill would then be sent to the owner to pay up. If they do not, then we lien versus sue. A lien can accumulate and covers the filing charges. Plus they can't sell till it's paid.

Remember the HOA does NOT hold the lease. It can't enforce it's terms. It can't evict in most states. The owner is tied to evicting their tenant. It can only be for violations of the lease. So it's ALWAYS highly recommended that ANY lease written includes following the HOA rules. That protects the owner and the HOA. It allows the owner to evict for lease violations they otherwise could not.

At this point your going to have to consider getting a fine schedule in place. That way can establish what price is what violation is to cost. It has to have a cap to whatever your state has. It can't just grab a number out of the sky. Be aware of the state and local laws of your area before establishing fines.

Former HOA President

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Are you sure there is no lease? You implied that they had a lease at one time and leases are usually in effect until the tenant leaves. People often interpret a one year lease as expiring when, in fact, they usually turn into a month-to-month lease after the first year and are still in full effect for as long as the tenant remains.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BenA2 on 11/02/2021 7:13 PM
Are you sure there is no lease? You implied that they had a lease at one time and leases are usually in effect until the tenant leaves. People often interpret a one year lease as expiring when, in fact, they usually turn into a month-to-month lease after the first year and are still in full effect for as long as the tenant remains.

Good point. This has been the case in at least one state where I have lived.

AnjaliV1, to deal with such a difficult situation, I think you and the other owner are stuck hiring an attorney. If you do not hire an attorney, I think your missteps may make things worse.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Also adding to what Melissa said, sometimes it is easier to deal with problem tenants than owners. If they are on a month-to-month or no lease at all, the owner or manager can give them notice without cause. They may decide it is easier to get a new tenant than fight frequent violations.

We had such a case and it took one warning and one violation letter and the tenant was kicked out. For the manager, it was a simple business decision. An owner living in the house probably would have taken it personally and fought it.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Melissa, very good answer.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Anj

I say you have to communicate with owner, be he in China or not.

AnjaliV1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses. I am going to assume that the tenant lives at this point month to month. These are the clauses written within our CC&R's regarding leasing of units ---

Section 3.5. Leasing of Units. Any Owner may lease such Owner’s Unit subject to the following:

3.5.1 No Owner shall be permitted to lease such Owner’s Unit for transient or hotel purposes or for a period of less than thirty (30) days.

3.5.2 No Owner may lease less than the entire Unit.

3.5.3. Any lease agreement is required to provide that the terms of said lease shall be subject in all respects to the provisions of the Declaration and the Bylaws and that any failure by the lessee to comply with the terms of such documents shall be a default under the lease.

3.5.4 All leases are required to be in writing.

Our HOA does have a fine schedule in place. I am curious as to whether the expired lease (now month to month, likely) counts as a lease being in writing?

Also, will it be within our means to request to look at the lease to ensure that 3.5.3 is being followed?

I agree that an attorney would definitely be the best course of action. Money is extremely tough within such a tiny HOA, which is why we've been trying to avoid it. But the manager is being very vague about the contact information of the owner, and it seems that at this point we may be left with no choice but to hire an attorney.

-Anjali

AnjaliV1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

We will be inviting the manager (who apparently represents this mysterious owner) to a hearing tomorrow via certified mail. Oh, how I hope our situation turns out something like yours... haha!

AnjaliV1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BenA2 on 11/02/2021 7:30 PM
Also adding to what Melissa said, sometimes it is easier to deal with problem tenants than owners. If they are on a month-to-month or no lease at all, the owner or manager can give them notice without cause. They may decide it is easier to get a new tenant than fight frequent violations.

We had such a case and it took one warning and one violation letter and the tenant was kicked out. For the manager, it was a simple business decision. An owner living in the house probably would have taken it personally and fought it.

We will be inviting the manager (who apparently represents this mysterious owner) to a hearing tomorrow via certified mail. Oh, how I hope our situation turns out something like yours... haha!

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AnjaliV1 on 11/03/2021 3:06 PM
Our HOA does have a fine schedule in place. I am curious as to whether the expired lease (now month to month, likely) counts as a lease being in writing?

I am not an attorney, but I would think so. For California, see https://www.sapling.com/7779675/california-lease-renewal-laws (which backs up BenA2's and my own experience in other states).

Quote:

Also, will it be within our means to request to look at the lease to ensure that 3.5.3 is being followed?

I say: Go ahead and ask. Report back the owner's response.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

I'm not sure why so many here seem to get this wrong. The association is not limited to dealing with the owner or the owner's manager, but very often can deal with tenants directly.

Are the tenants violating any laws? If the violations are also violations of the law, such as noise, operating a business against local zoning, dealing drugs, etc, then get help from local authorities.

What are the issues with the tenants?

Here is a statement from a CA law firm:

"Fining Tenants. CC&Rs will sometimes have a broad statement that the document is binding upon "each member, tenant, resident, and occupant" and each has a duty to follow the association’s governing documents. If so, penalties may be levied against tenants as well as owners for rules violations."

Do you have such a statement in your governing documents?

This law firm also advocates for a lease addendum.

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