Condo new window install considered common area??

Started by LauraG8 • 21 replies • 736 views

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LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Hello. We’re being told that the installation of new windows is the homeowner’s responsibility, not considered “common area.” Our windows are very old, single pane and many are no longer operable for fire safety. Several owners and board members have expressed the need for updating the windows, but our HOA Mgmt company says expense is owner’s responsibility. CC&R’s are extremely vague on this point. The only reference I can find which remotely addresses the subject states:

“Association Maintenance and Decoration Authority
“The Board of Directors, or its duly appointed manager or agent, if any, shall have the exclusive right to paint, decorate, repair, maintain and alter or modify the exterior walls, balconies, railings, exterior door surfaces, roofs and all
installations and improvements on the Common Area, and no owner of a unit shall be permitted to do or have done anv such work.”

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
-Laura

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Typically, windows would be the owner's responsibility and they should fill out a Architectural Application for approval by the association.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

We're a condo building too and Owners are responsible for replacing their window glass and frames. The citation from your CC&Rs you gave us (thank you!) shows WHAT the Assn. is obligated to maintain. And windows are not included.

How old ARE your CC&Rs? I'd think there'd be a little more about what items are Owners' responsibility and what is the obligation of the HOA. And...is there nothing about the style or materials that're required to replace the originals? Maybe in your Architectural documents? Say, in your CC&Rs, look at the Architectural section too.

Read your reserve study too. If the Assn. is responsible for windows, there will be a line item in your study of an estimated remaining life and estimated cost to repair or replace.

Your PM probably is correct, then, but your expert on this topic is your HOA attorney who is actually qualified to interpret your CC&Rs.

IF Owners are responsible, and enough want to replace their windows you might be able to get sort of a bulk rate from a firm. this can be a owner organized activity to survey, etc. to finds out how much interest there is and to seek bids for xx number of windows. It'll const more if they must be replaced from the exterior vs from the interior. your board may be willing to support your action and even direct your PM to help even though it's all about an owner issue.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Thank you, MaxB4.

To be more specific, the replacement involves the frame. The old aluminum frame needing replacement has one available option: vinyl frame but which is much wider than the old aluminum. What do do?.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kerry

How do you handle making the windows look the same? I assume you do not want different styles and color.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/19/2021 2:24 PM
We're a condo building too and Owners are responsible for replacing their window glass and frames. The citation from your CC&Rs you gave us (thank you!) shows WHAT the Assn. is obligated to maintain. And windows are not included.

How old ARE your CC&Rs? I'd think there'd be a little more about what items are Owners' responsibility and what is the obligation of the HOA. And...is there nothing about the style or materials that're required to replace the originals? Maybe in your Architectural documents? Say, in your CC&Rs, look at the Architectural section too.

Read your reserve study too. If the Assn. is responsible for windows, there will be a line item in your study of an estimated remaining life and estimated cost to repair or replace.

Your PM probably is correct, then, but your expert on this topic is your HOA attorney who is actually qualified to interpret your CC&Rs.

IF Owners are responsible, and enough want to replace their windows you might be able to get sort of a bulk rate from a firm. this can be a owner organized activity to survey, etc. to finds out how much interest there is and to seek bids for xx number of windows. It'll const more if they must be replaced from the exterior vs from the interior. your board may be willing to support your action and even direct your PM to help even though it's all about an owner issue.

Thank you!
This 3-story 24-unit condo was built in 1981.
Will definitely check the reserve study!!
The only section referring to the owner’s responsibility states, under “Maintenance of Unit”:

“The interior of all units shall be maintained by their respective owners, and each shall have the exclusive right, at their sole expense, to paint, repaint, tile, wax, paper or otherwise refinish and effect decoration to and upon the inner surfaces of the walls, ceilings, windows and doors bounding their units. Individual water heaters shall be considered a part of the unit and not of the Common Area, and it shall be the individual unit owner's responsibility to effect repair and maintenance.”

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

We were also built in the early 1980's. All our windows are owner responsibility and custom made. To add to the cost, when they vinyl sided the buildings they went with an off color, so if you want white on the inside and sandstone on the outside, price jumps about 30%.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Right! Under the circumstances, and with framing material looking very different these days, I’m not sure how that could be accomplished.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Actually, I have an association where a large number of owners are replacing their windows. As a property manager, I had a local window installer come to the community and create a standard for windows. It's now posted on their web portal and makes for easy reference for owners to go by.

Their association was built in 1984 and they have the original CCRs and Bylaws and they are very weak in association and owner responsibility. Attorneys, sadly are not the experts on interpreting governing documents when it comes to these sorts of issues, and the minimum time to read your documents and give an opinion is 4 hours at $350/hour.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Thank you for that input, PatJ1
Huge decision, for sure.
New owner moving in with an infant and inoperable windows with no insulation. That’s what created this discussion among the board.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My house had single pane aluminum framed windows. Terrible in every way imaginable. Heat loss. Fogging. Ugly... However, will say the room on the window seals allowed for nice display of items. Could put a nice plant in the window.

The space in the window did change when installed the new replacement windows. No longer had the space to put any small items or plants. It filled the space pretty well. I will suggest this: Decide if you want single hung or double hung windows. The price and location a consideration. I put my single hung windows on the 1st floor where could access both sides. Double hung windows I put upstairs where unable to get them with a ladder. Made it easier to clean. Picture windows are the cheapest option but then you can't open them.

The HOA has to approve your choice on the exterior. You have to pay for the project itself. Otherwise when you ask the HOA to pay for something, your asking your entire neighborhood/HOA members to pay. Unless everyone is benefitting, I highly doubt anyone wants their dues to go toward your windows.

Former HOA President

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Great points, Melissa!

I’m just learned about this new owner’s request and was trying to help out (as a board member) with more info on the subject and greatly appreciate all the feedback!!

Condo new window and frame considered a ‘common area concern’, for sure. Now what to do.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Excellent idea to find a local reputable window installer to create a standard for new window installs going forward!!
Thanks again, MaxB4!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Common area concern doesn't equal paying for it's replacement. It means granting approval that it meets a standard. Like our HOA you were responsible for painting your house. We had an approved color pallet. You had to apply for approval for your choice of color. However, if your house is in bad shape needing a paint job, then the HOA could step up to paint it. The owner would then have to pay the HOA back for the paint job. If they refuse to pay, then the HOA could place a lien for the bill. It's the only other reason you can file a lien outside of not paying your dues.

Former HOA President

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/19/2021 4:15 PM
Common area concern doesn't equal paying for it's replacement. It means granting approval that it meets a standard. Like our HOA you were responsible for painting your house. We had an approved color pallet. You had to apply for approval for your choice of color. However, if your house is in bad shape needing a paint job, then the HOA could step up to paint it. The owner would then have to pay the HOA back for the paint job. If they refuse to pay, then the HOA could place a lien for the bill. It's the only other reason you can file a lien outside of not paying your dues.

Another very helpful point, MelissaP1
Thank you for taking the time to assist with this!!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

If there is only one replacement option, Laura, it does not seem that your Assn. has any choice. By that, you mean only that one will work in your building? Or that one is an Assn. or Architectural Committee requirement?

Thanks for this citation: “The interior of all units shall be maintained by their respective owners, and each shall have the exclusive right, at their sole expense, to paint, repaint, tile, wax, paper or otherwise refinish and effect decoration to and upon the inner surfaces of the ... windows and doors bounding their units." It doesn't say Owners are responsible for replacing window panes or frames.

You have no Architectural Guidelines? No Architectural committee?

I now see you're on the Board, Laura. Your board's decision can't be based on personal things like an Owner with a new baby. The new Owner had the responsibility to try to learn about the condo before they purchased.

It's partly the case that, like my condo building and others around me, owners are responsible to repair/replace their window glass & frames. You really do need your HOA attorney's written opinion before your Board makes a decision about who pays.

As I noted way above, you do want a glazing contractor to give you estimates so you can assist owners and also make requirements about the new frames. As I also said, see if a bunch of you will jump in so you can get a break on the project.

Max is entirely wrong, an HOA or contract attonfdey might be needed to interpret your governing docs within the context of state statutes and case law. If these windows & frame are NOT on your reserves study and your Board, mistakenly in my non-lawyer view, decides the Assn. is responsible, owners will have to pay to replace them anyway with a special assessment or dues increase. All owners will need to pay even if their own windows are just fine.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/19/2021 5:21 PM
Max is entirely wrong, an HOA or contract attonfdey might be needed to interpret your governing docs within the context of state statutes and case law. If these windows & frame are NOT on your reserves study and your Board, mistakenly in my non-lawyer view, decides the Assn. is responsible, owners will have to pay to replace them anyway with a special assessment or dues increase. All owners will need to pay even if their own windows are just fine.

How is Max entirely wrong when an attorney might be needed? You really need to work on your spelling, as you're the Board secretary.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I AM a terrible typist. Luckily, our PM, per our contract, writes meeting minutes. I review for spelling, punctuation, etc. and then, of course the Board approve or amends them based on content.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/19/2021 7:27 PM
I review for spelling, punctuation,

You know, they do have spell check for the internet, should try it.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/19/2021 5:21 PM
As I noted way above, you do want a glazing contractor to give you estimates so you can assist owners and also make requirements about the new frames.

Could you show us where, way above, you mentioned the glazing contractor?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Laura,

As a PM, I haven't got a clue about windows, so like other items I don't have the expertise, I conduct with experts in those field. By using experts in those field, the Board can start to develop realistic standards for the community.

In regards to who maintains windows, in all the HOA's I have been involved with in California, I have only seen one where the HOA was responsible for owners windows and that was because the owners didn't to change their CCRs to have the Association cover everything. They went bankrupt three years later.

A reserve study, if one was done and maintained, will tell you quite a bit. IF the windows were HOA responsibility, then it would show up as a reserve item. If it is not there, and if the association was developed back in 1981, you should have a number of reserve studies to rely on. So, if they ain't there, the reasonable assumption would be it is owner responsibility, and with that, why pay an expensive attorney to tell you the same thing your reserve study told you.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm thrilled Max agrees with me that Laura should review her HOA's reserves studies.

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