Us vs. Them

Why does it always seem like it is Homeowners versus the Board? I have been part of an HOA since 2019, seen many HOA horror stories, and reading topics in this community for five months. Isn’t the point of an HOA to build stronger communities? What can be done to build strong communities from a Homeowner side and a Board member side?

Where is this coming from? Many of you know my fight with the HOA over solar. It is unfortunate that my solar company had to threaten legal action even just to get them to respond. Note: it was approved the next day. Going to meetings when a Homeowner has a simple question on what it going on with the community the Board always turns them down. I am not here to vent because everyone here can spend hours on that. I just want to know what can be done to where it feels like it isn’t the Homeowners versus the Board. Maybe I can bring some ideas to the table during the next meeting.

P.S. I like HOAs because I am lazy and do not want to spend my Saturdays doing yardwork.

Emotions. Lack of HOA education amongst owners and board members. HOA's are not here to build stronger communities. They are to maintain common property.

The HOA board is viewed as a threat to owner's rights and their wallets. HOA's have rules everyone is expected to follow. They can raise dues and vote on assessments that takes money away from the owner. Those 2 areas can cause highly fueled emotions to surface.

Most owners, and many HOA boards, do not understand the owner/board relationship. The owner's elect the board. This is usually a popular personality election. Board members do not need any relative education to run for office. They may run because they have a personal pet peeve that only they want results for. Many board members have absolutely no idea how an HOA operates and some run for a feeling of power and control.

There are many HOA's that have active owner interest and board members that don't just run with what they think is correct without research and review. There are even more boards running for years with appointed board members because no one shows up at the annual meeting. Some don't even have a board quorum.

Owner's get emotional and attack because they received a violation letter. As a board member, I get emotional and frustrated because owner's don't look out past their front door and understand the complexity of HOA's.

Educating owners at every opportunity has kept things quiet. We don't just ignore or say "no", but attempt to educate as to why and present documentation, if they read it.

We are, 40 year old, stacked, condos. Many owners treat us like an apartment complex. Just call or write someone and it will be fixed without any regard that they ARE the HOA and living here has responsibilities that fall on them.

The history of the Boards in our Association have been focused on generally two items, maintain the property values and build a human community to assist and support each other when needed. We have many social gatherings and events that bring most of the residents together at various times during the year.

TimB4,

I understand that HOAs vary on what conveniences they have. For my current situation having an HOA that maintains your yard, forces savings for repairs, and a nosy neighbor to watch your property when you are going is a huge benefit.

PatJ1,

What can be done to get emotions out of the equation? I have seen fights at our meetings. Granted one homeowner did come up with a way prevent arguments before covid. I hope he returns to attending meetings when they are in person again.

CathyA3,

How can these skills be learned? Some people have taken a class and they are the ones who are the loudest at meetings. Are there websites, books, etc. that I can suggest the board put in the website for reading?

MichaelS56,

Are any homes for sale in your community? How did your community develop this mission? Does it keep the fighting down?

AugustinD,

That does not help at all. It is literally keeping the Us versus Them mentality.

I will come at this from the perspective of a homeowner, board member, board president, association manager, and owner of an association management company.

My first experience with an HOA was 2008. Two months after we moved in my wife, and I received a pre-lien notice from the MC stating we were two months behind in our dues and a special assessment not yet disclosed to us. Turns out the escrow company didn’t know who the management company was and didn’t know where to send the dues check that was collected at closing. No welcome to the community, nothing, just pay up or else.

In my opinion, getting the HOA off on the right foot right at the beginning is paramount in the future harmony of the community. If you have power hungry boards, incompetent MC’s, and unethical attorneys, or worst, all three at the same time, could cause damage that either can’t be repaired or take years to overcome.

Too many MC’s and attorneys think they represent the wishes of the Board, when in fact they are there to represent the Association. If you have had some turnover in boards, many times there are underlying issues that derail the success of a new board. Miscommunication travels through a community like wildfire through social media. Before you can respond, you a dead duck.

We have about 10 regular contributors here and there are about 2 million board members nationwide. Someone poised a question, “Do you know how many hours a board member puts in”? I could answer that, but let me say, it is an accomplishment if you get them to board meeting, even if they weren’t prepared.

There are some good HOA’s out there. The most successful one started out the right way. They had governing documents tailored to their community, they had exceptional, well thought out architectural guidelines and procedures, they had a transparent developer, they had thoughtful and non-power-hungry directors, they had a MC’s and attorney who knew who they were actually working for, and most important, they were completely transparent.

The other issue that states need to address is quorum requirement for the election of directors. People complain about not having term limits in Washington. Well, the same thing happens in HOA’s. Some here will argue that you are letting a small group of people dictate how directors are selected. How are directors appointed? By one, two or three board members. A number of associations don’t have elections because they can’t make quorum. No skin off the board’s nose, no quorum they remain in office for another two years.

Yes, getting a like-minded slate of candidates is optimal, but if there are underlying conditions you may or may not be aware of, you could be doomed from the very start. As I said, there are some good HOA’s out there, but, unfortunately, they are few and far between.

Well said.

Is what you asked any different than the citizens vs the city council, or the watershed district or the state government. If the Board does their job and over communicate to the owners, and the Board is transparent, the Association will generally run pretty smoothly. The Board needs to take the time to get trained, expected to read and understand most of the governing documents and act as a Board.

I am sorry you do not understand that the tried and true approach to change in a HOA is to change the Board.

Changing the board doesn't always provide immediate results, but it can be a start. There is no magic board change to force the board to fulfill their responsibilities. If you are fortunate, a majority of the board can set wheels in motion and make a difference. Or you may experience years of board changes that accomplish nothing.

I'd love to talk more about this. I actually went to the office of our PMC because they kept refusing to provide documents. The PMC stated many times that he just works and takes direction from the Board. Whatever the Board wants or instructs, he does. I asked him if he ever 'coaches' or advises boards if and when they are clearly violating CCR and State Law and he shrugged it off saying its not his responsibility. His actions are done at the instruction of the board.

How to approach this topic? I agree, the PMC should work for the Association as a whole, but it seems to often a crappy board will poison this ideal relationship.

I'd love to talk more about this. I actually went to the office of our PMC because they kept refusing to provide documents. The PMC stated many times that he just works and takes direction from the Board. Whatever the Board wants or instructs, he does. I asked him if he ever 'coaches' or advises boards if and when they are clearly violating CCR and State Law and he shrugged it off saying its not his responsibility. His actions are done at the instruction of the board.

How to approach this topic? I agree, the PMC should work for the Association as a whole, but it seems to often a crappy board will poison this ideal relationship.

It can be a start, but if you've got difficult members, changing the board is just changing the people they direct their ire toward. What the OP seems to want is tips on building community among the membership.

And it's tough. People seem to love nothing more than relentlessly complaining about everything and everyone. And they don't want what's best for the association, they want what they want. Immediately, most of the time.

AugustinD,

Why are you trying to continue this Us vs. Them mentality? Help me and other homeowners who may be reading this understanding your thinking? I don’t understand how me not doing yardwork equals me have the HOA Board to behave a certain way. You are saying covenants are a contract; therefore, if I find a community where the dues cover yardwork wouldn’t that be keeping up with the contract. It would be the same if I got a landscaper.

How is asking for some ideas to bring to the next HOA meeting complaining about everything and everyone and they don't want what's best for the association? The HOA asks for idea every meeting from the homeowners. The fights usually happen when someone has an issues or question and the board cut them off.

MichaelS56, I hate to bring you in to this:

“The history of the Boards in our Association have been focused on generally two items, maintain the property values and build a human community to assist and support each other when needed. We have many social gatherings and events that bring most of the residents together at various times during the year.”

Their HOA and Homeowners work together. BarbaraT1, understood what I was asking for. Another homeowner brought but within my community come up with a solution to build stronger relationships between Homeowners and the Board. It worked for six months before we went into virtual meetings. Now it is putting people on mute when they are talking. I am looking for ideas to bring up during the next meeting to help address this Homeowner vs. Board fighting so my community can become better.

AugustinD,

The coffee they have at the meetings is too cold. We all know that the Board is in charge. But what I want, and many other people is open communication. My question was how can it be moved from Us. Vs. Them to everyone working together to make the community better. For example, they cut off the streetlights and around 60 homeowners showed up asking why. Instead of addressing the concerns they just closed the meeting. Every question was what happened to the streetlights. You know what the issues was, they were changing them to LED’s and the contractor cut them off a month early. They could have said that. I have a feeling AugustinD that you think that is alright. People thought the HOA just didn’t pay the power bill.

For the submeter, they did not need to install it in the garage. Some people have it on the outside which would be a better choice if it needed repair of manual reading. For solar what they were doing was illegal and it took having to say we would take them to court for them to approve it helps no one. And it cost the association money. I am sure they contacted their lawyer and they most likely told them to stop. The HOA could have worked with me and the solar company to make it easy for everyone to get solar. They had someone in industry to held address questions and concerns.

There was a short time when members concerns, issues, ideas, and questions were addressed. Yes, that was a different board. I am looking for ways to get back to that. Another example, there was a tree that constantly had branches falling. Three cars were damaged in a two month period. None of them were homeowners vehicles and the insurance didn’t pay so the Board did not think too much about it. Money would have had to be spent to remove the tree. Well, some members pointed out the children sit and walk under that tree and what would happen if a branch was to fall on them. I am happy that the Board took the time to listen to Homeowners and address their concerns.

My own experience with “Us vs Them”, as a new HOA Board member, is that the Board members have some ‘issues’.

Our current Board President has “power issues”. Because they are President, they sometimes just make up policy without any discussion or vote. They definitely dislike hearing “shouldn’t we vote on that?” They shouted and cursed at me at our last working meeting.

Our VP is, frankly, not qualified to be on the Board due to lack of intelligence and lack of time. They are consistently late and documents that are supposed to be online rarely seem to make it there. They rarely do any actual work. It seems to be an ego thing: “I’m HOA VP’, they brag to friends.

Our (new) Secretary was talked into the job and, to be blunt, hasn’t a clue what is going on. They’re relatively new to America and their notions of law etc are heavily influenced by 2-3 decades living in an Asian non-democracy. I’m fairly sure the President got them to join because they seemed easy to manipulate.

I’m the new Treasurer.

All of those details aside, I’m shocked at how quickly these people - who *all* ran for the Board because they were upset over getting a CC&R violation - have decided that CC&R violations don’t matter to them anymore. Do you remember the end of Orwell’s Animal Farm, when the pigs turned into men? In the book, it took years. On my Board, it only took a few weeks.

BillD

I thought about this thread after the four hour plus board meeting I attended last week. The community I manage just transitioned from developer control and has a new homeowner board who are committed and ready to serve.

And they have been met with such mistrust and downright hostility from the jump. There has been constant talk of "transparency" without anyone explaining what they think that actually means. Even during the declarant phase, all documents, agendas, meeting minutes, financials, contracts etc - have been posted on a website. Declarant meetings were noticed and open even when they were not statutorily obligated to be.

At the first board meeting, owners were enraged that there was an executive session AT ALL - even though it was about topics that the state allows to be discussed in executive session. The argument was "just because you can doesn't mean you should." During the open session, despite having TWO open forums on the agenda, owners repeatedly interrupted the board during their discussions and would not stop even when asked. For future meetings, they want a copy of the management report and meeting packet given to the board too, so they can interrupt even more with their feedback.

Almost nothing got accomplished in that meeting. Over four hours, and all they were able to do was approve minutes and approve some collection activity. Everything else was tabled because every single homeowner in attendance wanted to have their say, and frankly, get their way.

Since that meeting, every attempt to inform the community of what the board is doing - for example a simple notice that the lake maintenance company would be out to survey the fish and aquatic vegetation - has been met with complaints and snarky comments about the way the notice was worded.

My poor board members are feeling pretty beat up and bewildered.

I'm not defending your board, Tom, but I can see why a board would just not want to deal with all this and start drawing the blinds on transparency. I'm a big believer in following not just the letter, but the spirit of what the state requires but that philosophy took a beating in my four hour meeting ordeal.

Change requires both sides to change. Owners who want to be able to address the board need to also respect that there is a time and place for that. Owners who want transparency shouldn't use that to second guess and mock every thing the board says and does. And owners need to accept that if they want to know everything about everything and have their opinion count on every issue they should run for the board themselves instead of leaving the work to others but armchair quarterbacking every step of the way.

I don't know if Us vs Them can ever be eliminated if both sides don't see themselves as having the same mission. If the membership is mistrustful of the board, and sees their mission as thwarting and second guessing everything the board wants to do on principle, and the board in turn sees the membership as an obstacle to them getting anything done... well here we are.

JohnC46,

If you are referring my solar project. I mailed my application on June 5th. It arrived at the property management company on June 8th. I did not hear anything from them, so I emailed them on June 28th and they responded on June 29th

July 7th was the meeting, and my application was not brought up during the meeting. I emailed the property management company on the 8th and they responded on July 13th saying they didn’t have enough time to put it in the meeting.

July 24th I have a meeting with the ARC head and they gave me a list of extra stuff they wanted which wasn’t in the application. I had my Solar company get in contact with them to explain thing and try to work things out.

August 11th not brought up in the meeting again at this point they stop talking to me and the solar company. September 6th the solar company contacts the HOA and property management company saying they would take legal action. September 7th the Solar company and ARC have a meeting. September 8th it was approved.

It is still an issue with them.

Barbara's excellent post illustrates how the Us vs. Them mentality often predates any missteps a board can make - and it also illustrates why a main driver is clueless (and often nasty) homeowners.

The angriest folks are often the ones who know the least, and what they get angry about is normal business practice. They believe that HOAs/CPAs are democracies, which they most certainly are not.

I experienced something similar when I worked with a group of homeowners on getting elected to my current association's board. I went from being their ally to being their enemy within a month, during which time I fulfilled some of my campaign promises of improving communication and transparency: open board meetings, a website, and a newsletter, among other things. I couldn't tell you what they thought was so objectionable, and I guarantee you that they couldn't have either.

Kinda makes the apathetic no-show homeowners look more appealing, doesn't it?

Augustin,
I also said the same thing that I never wanted to live in a HOA again but I am looking at townhomes as well. Side by side units too. This forum is also helping me in my decision making. I am looking at a 55 plus community but also some new units in a new development with a mixture of stand alones and townhomes and apartments. The new development website states that HOA dues are $100 a year. I am skeptical of that cost but wonder if that is what someone just put in that particular field because the dues have not been determined yet. I will be living in a rental duplex while I look and decide what the best option is. I can tolerate a lot but I hate unequal treatment from the board towards some of the homeowners and showing favoritism towards others. My current board has improved in that regard so I give them some credit for that and for keeping the common elements maintained through many hours of volunteer work and doing a good job of collecting dues and being responsible with HOA funds. I wish you luck Augustin in finding a good fit for you HOA or not.

I am eager to hear when you make a decision and how you came about that decision. I think other forum members may benefit from your experience. The really hard part is how do new homeowners know what he or she is actually getting in to. You may have been given all of the documents about the HOA but there is so much more to it than that. It's difficult to know the dynamics of the HOA Board. I didn't have a clue when I bought my current house. I had never lived in an HOA before and my thought process at that time was, I am a responsible homeowner, pay my bills, and I keep my property in good condition, and I get along well with people. What could be the problem with living in an HOA. Wow was I wrong about that one. But as time went on the Board changed dramatically and things got much better. So it can be a crapshoot. And things can change as time goes on. As PITA used to always say "caveat emptor", buyer beware. When I search for my new home, I will keep that forefront in my mind. If something doesn't look or sound right go with your gut.

Augustin was summarizing some of my recent posts. :-) I believe that HOAs and COAs are required to operate under conditions that would cause most for-profit businesses to fail.

I work for a developer/new home builder right now and served about 15 years as a board member in condo communities, so I've had a close up view of this stuff.

Yes, HOAs/COAs are a crapshoot - they're very much a product of who is on the board, what kind of neighbors make up the community, and the community's history. "Good" or "bad" is just a snapshot in time. Anyone who has put in time to get an association back on track, only to see things unravel again when they finally step down, will understand that comment.

The problem is that much of this can't be vetted ahead of time, so doing your homework before buying will only get you so far. Sheila from IN, who is another regular poster, once said that buying a condo is like walking into a bar and becoming business partners with everybody in the joint. It's a risk that is part of owning a home in an HOA or COA - and very few buyers understand this ahead of time. The ones who do understand probably have been burned in the past.

There should be a better way to educate buyers about what they're getting into, but I haven't found it yet. And I still haven't found a way around the fact that much of the board members' education comes from learning things the hard way, even if they take advantage of training opportunities.

Meanwhile these communities aren't going away - if anything there will be more of them as the demand for housing increases, and too many folks benefit financially from maintaining the status quo. The only thing I can see making a significant change would be if large numbers of buyers said "nope", and I don't see that happening unless something really bad happens. Probably not even then - there are condo owners down in Florida right now fighting urgently needed assessment increases after a building collapsed earlier this year. I mean... seriously??!! And these folks are your financial partners if you buy a condo in their buildings.

You and I are perhaps on the same page on a lot of issues when it comes to deciding whether to buy into another HOA/COA? Do consider starting a thread on your own adventures. I will then add mine. TomP11, sorry for the hijacking here. If this goes on much more, I will start a thread in a few weeks about my adventures.

I think I am at least several steps and a few weeks away from any possible disclosure, say. I hope to be re-located (belongings in storage) within the next ten days.

I just checked the statutes where I will be living. The state has a condo statute, with some sections applying to all condos and others applying to condos built only after a recent year. The statute borrows heavily from the uniform condominium act. I think this is also good.

PatJ1's, CathyA3's and JohnT38's reminder (that a decently run HOA/COA today could easily change to a poorly run one tomorrow), is a good one.

SheliaH's line (re-posted by CathyA3) is a good one.

Things I will check for:

-- Is the townhome community subject to the condominium act, in part of in whole (depending on the year the townhome community was established)? Many a time I see townhomes not subject to the state's condo statute.

-- For reserve funding, the state requires pretty much only disclosure of the amount the COA has in the fund. I will ask for the most recent reserve study. If the reserve study is less than three years old, and in about seven minutes, I feel I will have an idea about whether the COA is financially healthy; charging the right amount for the assessment; et cetera.

-- I may seek the last six months of board meeting minutes. If there's gossip in them, this is a red flag.

-- Of course I will check the online court records of lawsuits and see what the COA has been up to in the courts. A record of lawsuits (other than foreclosure proceedings) in recent years is a red flag.

-- I keep in mind CathyA3's interesting counsel about moving often. CathyA3, is this partly to avoid being around when, say, a large special assessment is imposed and many owners cannot pay it, or the COA has to get a loan.

-- Suppose I do find a townhome I like. Will I be among those who say, "Screw funding reserves for items 10 or more years away from being replaced. I may not be alive that long." I think a lot of senior citizens fight assessment increases (intended to boost the amount in reserve accounts) for this reason.

-- BancsS, I agree about my gut feeling. I am going to dox any prospective COA manager. I want to know his/her formal education. I want to know whether he/she has been arrested for a DUI. But I want to talk to the manager for at least five minutes. If I get a cold, yet serious and informed response from the manager, she/he is the manager for me.

-- Probably my biggest concern is that I will find owners and directors alike not savvy about covenants and that they are contractual terms. There will be a lot of weighing to do about whether indeed I want to co-own property with the party-ers in the bar.

-- If after looking at the above, I feel, as the line goes, "triggered" by past experiences, then this will drive me to buy the small house instead of the townhome. For my peace and general health. I will maintain simple shrubbery and trees myself. I will buy a decent riding mower for $1000 or so.

-- While traveling a week ago, and after some sleuthing of neighborhoods, I did make an offer a week ago on a great, well-maintained house, that was the perfect size and had a large lawn (lots of airspace between neighbors) and other desirable features. The house had been on the market maybe a few days. The listing agents said the seller would review all offers on Saturday evening. On Friday I offered $5k over the asking price. On Saturday the seller accepted an offer that was $20k over the asking price. IIRC the listing agent said there were a few such offers at this price, and the seller chose the best one. One thing this means is that a lot of people are making cash offers. I wonder if things will settle down to something more sane. This all is largely driven by low interest rates and a bloated stock market. As well, maybe climate change is driving a lot of this in the non-coastal states.

Come out to California, people are getting $100K+ over asking price.

AugustinD,

It is alright, just reading and learning things from everyone.

We've got a Facebook group for our HOA and I've been using it to communicate with the membership, I think it has helped a lot. I post meeting notices and agendas there, anything else that might be of interest to the community. Lost dogs and cellphones too.

People can message me with issues, sometimes they are angry. Sometimes it is legitimate. I always try to be helpful. Over time I've seen an improvement in the tone of the comments there, and have been able to recruit some people to be on committees.