HOA blocking speech between owners

As a retired carpenter I know a lot about construction and maintenance of buildings. Over the last 7 years I have helped my friends and neighbors with issues pertaining to this subject.
I just got a violation notice that says that I can not talk to contractors or other owners about work being done on and around our buildings.
The only contact I have had with a contractor was a couple of weeks ago when a paving contractor came out to try to fix a mistake they made in grading our new asphalt, leaving a large puddle of water on our drive that used to drain out to the main drive and then to the sewer. I had requested from our management company that someone be here to monitor what would be done, but no board member of rep from the management company was here.
I did not try to tell the workers what to do, only that what they did was not the right thing to do as I foresee winter with frozen puddles on the new asphalt, and there is still water sitting on the drive after rain.

As far as talking with other owners, of course we talk. I have become good friends with many of the owners and have helped others with advice or helped make repairs.

The sections of the Bylaws that the attorney quoted had nothing to do with talking to other owners.
One section simply says the affairs of the Association shall be vested in the board.
The other: Contracts. The board may authorize...........approve contracts, in the name of the Association.
I reviewed our Bylaws and the Declarations..... nothing I see is about owners not being able to talk to each other about HOA affairs.

Last sentence of letter: As a homeowner, you are not authorized to contact contractors or other homeowners regarding work being done on the community property.
It seems that if any violation has occurred, it is my right to free speech.

Well if the board paid the contractor and your not on the board, then you should not be talking to the contractor. You may know what your doing. However, it's NOT in your lane to do so. If you want to be involved, then get on your board or volunteer to help in this area. Otherwise this is in no way to be an offense, but your getting in the way.

BradT4, I am sorry your HOA has a bona fide, money grubbing fool for an attorney. Of course you have every legal right to speak to other owners about concerns you have. All the other owners and you have what is called a legal interest in the common area of the HOA. You have a legal right to elect whomever to the board.

I agree with others here that you should try to avoid speaking with vendors.

You can consider writing the board a short, polite note quoting the attorney's letter, stating you have every legal right to speak to other owners; the attorney is wrong to try to order you otherwise; and you regret that HOA funds were used on this letter.

Do not write the attorney directly.

I know exactly what Melissa and I know what I said. I would tell the PM to stick it where the sun don't shine, this coming from the owner of a management company. IF, the vendor felt the homeowner crossed the line, I would heard about it and deal with accordiingly.

You should diect your remarks to Brad, as he is the one who got the unfortumnate letter. If I were told to have this letter written, I would tell the Board to write it themselves. I have had homeowners interact with vendors all the time and in all these years have never had an issue, never. Now, I have gotten many letters from the attorney at my HOA always initiated by the PM, not the Board, costing in the neighborhood of $20K. So, yeah, kinda know what Brad feels like.

Brad

Let me play the Devil's Advocate. Did vendors complain about your "nosing in" on work being done?

I interviewed one contractor and one of the first things he asked me was this an HOA, and I said yes. He replied, I am sorry but I will not do work for an association. I asked him why. He said they are always nickel and diming on the price. They change their minds how/what in the middle of the job. Several people will tell me I am on the BOD and then proceed to give directions how I should do things. In the middle of the job the BOD changes and the new BOD wants to renegotiate the contract. They are slow payers. He said thanks, but no thanks.

Same as we have several owners who try and tell the landscaper how they want things done. Our landscaper tell his people to call him (Raymond), the owner when people bug them (we have 2-3 out of 112 that do it). Raymond then tells the owner to send an email to or call the BOD as he takes directions only from the BOD.

Hello NpS and thanks for your input.
I am really not concerned about contacting vendors.....because I do not do that. Why they think that I have contacted contractors.......Read through and you may see a reason why they think that.
If the boards lane is to take care of our property and they or the PM are not doing that, then I think all home owners have a right to jump into the lane. Right or Wrong?

Presently, I am very concerned about what is now happening to some of our units and how a remedy to stop it has been ignored for years. We are in 2 story town homes, 4 connected in a row with 4 units across from our main drive.
Many of our building have experienced water leaks and now insects chewing away portions of the beams and framing beneath the wood siding. Most is probably the result of caulk that has been placed where it should never be including in the window weep holes. That is going to cost every owner, especially if we end up with interior damage as well.

I guess I could have written a much larger analogy of what has taken place as it seems many answering got the impression that I am contacting contractors or try to tell them what to do. That is not the case. I have not contacted or spoken with any contractor since I was asked to do that in 2019 when I was a board member. Back then, I was butting heads with the PM who knew nothing about construction and was constantly telling people wrong things to do and many times it was not the correct person who was told to do something ridiculous. All the documents I sent seemed to go unheard.
That in itself is too long of a story for what is happening now.

When the paving contractor arrived and started working on my drive to try to resolve the large puddle of water on my newly paved drive, I watched from inside my garage.
Frankly, I had no idea what they might try to do because I knew from old pictures that the asphalt at the end of my drive where it connects to the drive for 8 units, was raised more that 2 inches in elevation. That created back flow into my drive instead of water flowing into the main drive as before.
The contractor approached me to tell me what they were going to do. I only said "Okay, do what you think you need to. Personally, I thought right away that it was not a good idea. I also realize it is not my responsibility to tell them what to do.
I asked for, but no one from the board or Management company was here to supervise. After the workers left, I sent email to the board and PM stating my thoughts along with pictures.

I believe that a few board members are trying to scare me into keeping quiet about many of the other issues that are not being taken care of as far as maintenance. Undermining sidewalks and many that are sinking. Some over 2 inches. Leaks in many units that is caused by caulk not allowing water that gets behind siding to have a place to drain.
When I see something wrong, I do not just tell the board, I support it with documents so they can see for themselves. I was doing that when I was a board member. However, to me it felt like they did not want to know what the correct thing to do would be. Only how to put a band-aid on it and move on. I even suggested to find professional building inspectors, not contractors to see what issues need to be fixed and the right way to do it.

I got the violation letter the day after a board meeting this week. They are being conducted by phone at this time. I mention this because during that meeting, the issue that I was dealing with as a board member, has now come back to haunt our owners.
We have wood lap siding and there has been caulk put where it should never be. That caulk is trapping water behind the siding. I told the board in 2019 that caulk in this location will cause wood rot an leaking into the units. Nothing has been done about it.

Now my next door neighbor on the south end of our building has an insect infestation which is a result of the caulk,(The contract told the neighbor). Two large and very long trim boards have been removed. Windows may have to be removed if the framing structure is too compromised.

The board also said that they are now debating if it is the HOA or the home owner that is responsible to pay for the extermination of insects and cost to fix the damage.
During the meeting while discussing the issue, one of the board members said he might have the same issue.
Today a crew is out there on the south end of his unit, removing the same boards between stacks of windows that are in their 18 foot high living room area.

I have contacted a couple of attorneys to see what I might need to do. No response as of yet.
I guess I should send a letter to the board and contest the accusations that have no merit.

You got that right.

As you can see from some of the responses, there are people in HOAs who think somehow they can control who you talk to. Obviously, the board runs the business of the HOA and you have no right to negotiate contracts or direct vendors and contractors but you, of course, have every right to talk to any person you choose to. Any suggestion that you do not is laughable.

By the same token, any owner or contractor has a right to refuse to talk to you. There is also a fine line between being helpful and harassing someone. I encourage every homeowner to stay involved with their association and the best way to do that is work with the HOA whenever possible.

Hi BenA2
Thanks for your response. I did laugh,...........a little. But I was more in disbelief of what they said.

I guess I could have written a much larger analogy of what has taken place as it seems many answering got the impression that I am contacting contractors or try to tell them what to do. That is not the case. I have not contacted or spoken with any contractor since I was asked to do that in 2019 when I was a board member. Back then, I was butting heads with the PM who knew nothing about construction and was constantly telling people wrong things to do and many times it was not the correct person who was told to do something ridiculous. All the documents I sent seemed to go unheard.

When I was doing carpentry, I certainly would not have wanted someone hovering over me and telling me how to do my job.......unless it was my boss.

All my neighbors wish that I was still on the board, but I could not work with those who did not want my help. It was like a click that was in love with the PM.

Now I just need to know how to respond to the board, they are wasting money on attorney fees and I don't want to add to that.

I guess I could have written a much larger analogy of what has taken place as it seems many answering got the impression that I am contacting contractors or try to tell them what to do. That is not the case. I have not contacted or spoken with any contractor since I was asked to do that in 2019 when I was a board member. Back then, I was butting heads with the PM who knew nothing about construction and was constantly telling people wrong things to do and many times it was not the correct person who was told to do something ridiculous. All the documents I sent seemed to go unheard.

To answer your question: The worker that I had only about of a minutes conversation with, came to me. I did not bother them or ask more questions while they were here doing their work.
If the vendor complained, it would have been to the PM I guess.

Just very laughable that they tell me not to speak to other owners. We all have a right to know what is being done here. The latest development is insect infestation. Two units near mine has had the outside trim boards removed on two levels for extermination and possible framing replacement. This can be attributed to caulk that has been placed where it should never be.
I told the board about this a few years ago but nothing has been done to remove the caulk.
I can bet that there will be no notification in our newsletter of what to watch for to catch this problem early. The board wants to hide all of this.

Today, one board member has the same problem. Workers are taking out boards as I write.

Thanks for your reply August and your advice.

I guess I could have written a much larger analogy of what has taken place as it seems many answering got the impression that I am contacting contractors or try to tell them what to do. That is not the case. I have not contacted or spoken with any contractor since I was asked to do that in 2019 when I was a board member. Back then, I was butting heads with the PM who knew nothing about construction and was constantly telling people wrong things to do and many times it was not the correct person who was told to do something ridiculous. All the documents I sent seemed to go unheard.

The paving contractor worker approached me as I was watching them work in my drive. He told me what they were going to try to do to git rid of the standing water. All I said was "Okay, do what you need to do.
When they were done I did tell them that I did not think it was the right thing to do. When winter comes, the water will not be able to run off the drive on the sides because that will be frozen ground with piles of ice and snow. He then said he would discuss with his boss if there is another option.

I did reach out to two attorneys to see if there may be something I should do. But you are right, I should not talk to the HOA attorney or that could cause more problems.

You are correct that, per the CC&Rs and nonprofit corporation act, the board's lane is to maintain the property as the CC&Rs dictate.Please quote here the section of your CC&Rs that says individual owners have the lawful power to give directions to contractors/vendors. Please quote here the section of your CC&Rs that says an individual owner has the power to contract on behalf of the HOA and make changes to the contract.

There is a name for owners who violate the covenants; represent themselves as acting on behalf of the corporation when they do not have the power to do it: Ultra vires. Acting "ultra vires" (as though you are the corporation when you are not) typically violates not only the CC&Rs but also, state statutes.

If you want the vendor/contractors to do things differently, then send a letter to the board asking thusly. Even better, get elected to the board.

Cathy wrote: "If homeowners want to talk among themselves and get organized to elect better-informed board members who will make good decisions, that's good. If that's not the end goal, then all the talk is just griping to no purpose." Yes!

Brad was a board member and, for some reason, is not now. If he's trying to find others to join him back on the Board, yes, that good.

Brad Thomson

2:52 PM (42 minutes ago)

Okay, I have to jump back a few years. I became aboard member in May 2018. I believed that with all my construction back ground I could help our board to make decisions with the best information I could provide to them. In September I was removed by the BOD given only that I was swamping them and the internet to the point that they could not do their work.
During my short 5 month stent as a board member, not only was I trying to do the treasurer job with no help from the exiting treasurer or the board, I was also trying to learn proper procedures. With not one board meeting during that time, and only email as means to communicate, I found it near impossible to get answers to items about finances. I could not find the correct billing for shared expenses with the neighboring Association for drive repairs. There were several emails between our PM and the other Association, but every time there where different amounts to the billing and the square footage changed and was not correct. I have survey tools that allowed me to quickly measure what was done.
I also became aware that the current board seemed to be in love with the PM, finding she could do no wrong. I was repeatedly finding her mistakes or that she was telling the wrong owner about issues they had to fix, or telling them to do things that they should not. Before becoming a board member, I myself had issues with her and heard many others tell me how badly they were treated by her. Now I was stuck working with her, so I had to bite my tongue about many other complaints about her.
As far as the Association's status reserve studies, I believe that is happening now at the end of our fiscal year. There were many documents that all owners were supposed to be getting and was one of my request. After I was removed, many of the issues that were lacking, began to happen. Many residents said it was because I was looking into those that they are now providing what our Bylaws call for.
Being removed from the board was actually a release for me as I was getting worried that there was too much not being done correctly. Even our Attorney General's office said they were missing documents that were supposed to be filed. Once removed, I did not pursue that issue.

Again, I think there is misunderstanding about what I am trying to say. By getting in the BOD's lane, I only mean to take action with the board or to make changes to the board.
The two items you want me to quote from the CC&R do not exist. Just as the two sections that were quoted to me that are supposed to say owners are forbidden to talk to contractors or other owners about HOA business do not exist.
I absolutely agree that it is not my place to tell any contractor what to do. And I will say it again, I have not done that at all. Even when I was on the board and was asked to look at an issue, it was not the contractor that I talked to, it was our PM. Then the PM would review and relay whatever needed to go to the contractor.
I have no desire to tell any contractor how to do their job. I also know that if I see something being done that is not correct and maybe even harmful to our buildings, I have to inform the PM.
That is exactly what I did with my driveway issue. I never told the workers what to do.
The PM takes out the contract and it is up to the PM to supervise that work. If I were the worker and an owner was trying to tell me how to do my job, I would tell that owner to get in touch with my boss and I would continue my job until told by my immediate supervisor to stop.

The biggest issue out of all this is being told that I am not authorized to talk with any of our home owners about what is being done here. I do not represent myself as a board member and all who know me, know that.
It has been the history or Method of Operation for the entire 7 years that I have been here, for the board or the PM to try to hide things that we all should have a right to know.
Example: 2017 all roofs were replaced including all the roof vents. Early 2018 I was having a problem with our dryer. The controls failed and had to be replaced. A few weeks later the same controls failed again. I then discovered that my roof vent for the dryer was completely blocked with lint. I fixed that myself and bought a dryer vent cleaning kit to clean the 30feet of line.
Next I found out that almost every roof vent for dryers in our HOA were blocked as well. With a board meeting in 2 days I knew I had to go to bring up this most dangerous fire hazard.
The board said thanks for bringing it up, we will look into it. I felt that a potential fire hazard was something that demanded immediate action, like knocking on doors or leaving a notice taped to the door. Of course I told my neighbors and friends so they were aware.
2 weeks went by before a newsletter was sent. In that there was no mention of the serious situation, only that each owner is responsible to have their dryer vents cleaned.
Through my research, I found out what type of vent was used and where they were purchased. Pictures I took of the roofs being replaced also had the boxes that they came in. Those boxes contain the warning: Not to be used for dryer venting. Basically, those vents are for bathrooms only. They are not big enough and not designed to prevent lint build up.
All this was reported to the board and the PM. Nothing was ever done except the screens were removed from all the roof vents, whether they were bath vents or not. I eventually found out that many other owners had problems with their dryer and in some cases, the vent line in their attack spaces blew apart. This again cost owners because of a mistake made by the roofing company and the lack of supervision by our PM.

The current issue that all owners should be told about is the potential for insect infestation, damage to structure and water leaks because caulk has been placed over flashing where the water is supposed to drain. Even the weep holes for windows have been caulked shut. I opened mine after learning from a neighbor it happened to them. I have not looked at all of our buildings, however, I do know that some have this caulk running the full length as mine does and some do not.
I obviously do not see everything that happens here, but right now two owners have this issue. The board is trying to say that it may be the windows that cause the leaks. That is obviously an attempt to put all costs on the individual owners. Now through word of mouth, the workers hired by the HOA PM told the owner that the caulk should have never been there and it does cause wood rot, insects and other damage. This is something I told the board and the PM about in 2019.
I truly only want to protect myself and other owners' interest in our properties. I would be a board member but I could not work with people who are trying to hide the truth and not protect the owners.
Because of the poor treatment many owners have had, most do not want to even bother going to board meetings or get involved by becoming a board member.

Really, is this what living in an HOA is supposed to be like, living in Nazi Germany o maybe Stalins USSR?

I knew an owner who was constantly screaming at vendors. He packed a gun. Now and then he had his large dog with him. The HOA documented like crazy and easily won a restraining order against him.

Brad is concerned about safety issues. This sounds like his excuse for not following the covenants when it comes to communications. Obviously he did not always get what he wanted using his methods. One would hope this would make him think about the most effective ways to get action, including contracting appropriate regulatory agencies, and including winning over enough owners so that he and others who felt as he did could win a majority of the board seats. For whatever reason, he cannot do this. Maybe he should take stock of what it's worth to live there in some misery. You can't always get what you want.

Please cite what covenant Brad has broken! There is substantial difference in quoting a covenant allowing you to talk with a vendor and citing a covenant that he violated. Being that you have read thousand and thousands of CCRs and case law, you should be able to cite a whole bunch of examples written into the CCRs.

Sure. Show me the money.

I do not think much of this HOA's attorney for telling BradT4 that he cannot talk to owners. Depending on this HOA attorney's exact wording, perhaps the HOA attorney deserves a letter to the state disciplinary board. No real punishment will result, as BradT4 is not the HOA attorney's client. But it will cost this attorney a fair amount of time and maybe cause this attorney to think twice before he orders someone without an attorney not to talk about HOA business with fellow owners. Plus this HOA attorney billed the HOA for his time issuing an order ('don't talk to owners about HOA vendors' et cetera) with negative legal merit and potentially either raising liability issues or certainly promoting more stupid exchanges costing everyone time and money. Is this HOA attorney among those HOA attorneys who know their bread, butter and heated swimming pools depend on how much dissent they can stir up among HOA owners?

BradT4 is also dismayed about insect intrusion. I would bet rightly so. But at this forum's members' requests, he's also sitting there relating to this forum how he has told the Board a number of times where the Board has taken incorrect steps. BradT4, do you know how many of us here have experienced this same situation? Do you know how many of us here have realized that the process of getting things done, and done the "right way", at a HOA/COA is, as the line goes, uglier than making sausage?

Brad posted:Brad implied that the Illinois attorney general should take action on some missing documents. BradT4 claims there is nothing in the covenants that says an owner should not be directing vendors. I wish BradT4 could see that these positions of his could be seen by others as not very compelling arguments to support him. Quite the opposite, IMO.

I am not perfect. Just saying.

Aren't board meetings supposed to be open in IL, Brad. You somewhere suggested they aren't? I, too, wondered how the Board threw you off the Board and surmised they must have appointed you. Is that right?

I disagree with LetA,who is a director, that it's OK to ask vendors "questions" about their work while they're doing it. Leave them alone. When we had the exterior sof our twin towers painted a couple of years ago, with painters on every one of our 300+ balconies along with on swing stages outside our windows, ALL residents were instructed to NOT speak to them, ask them questions, etc. in a memo that was distributed a couple fo times. The painters were instructed to politely tell any resident to contact our PM or the project manager.

Meanwhile, Brad, as others a have advised, get a group together and work to change the composition of the board at the next election.

I think you are misreading what I have said. I never have interrupted or have tried to tell any workers how to do their job. As a carpenter myself, I would politely tell any one trying to tell me how to do my job that they need to talk to my boss or management of the company, then go about my work.
So I completely understand the importance of not interrupting the workers and I have had no desire to do that.

You mean your rights as a "HOA member"... Being a homeowner makes you a member. Your answers are in your documents. Read them and then quote them in responses. The MC is not the HOA. You and your neighbors are. It may be time to point that out again as your board may be getting too comfortable with the MC. The MC being a bit too comfortable running the place too.

Speaking as a former board member, I didn't feel like that at all the one time we received such a letter. But in that particular case, the owner had been accusing a neighbor of something that apparently wasn't real - NOBODY was able to verify the complaint, and we tried. It appeared to be a mental issue, there wasn't anything the board could do about it, we certainly weren't going to send the neighbor a letter for a non-existent violation, and I felt sorry for the person who was wasting their money pursuing phantoms.

The OP's situation doesn't sound anything like that, and it may put his mind at rest to find out that the board has no grounds to send him a violation notice (and he may as well have an attorney waiting in case the board is unwise enough to pursue this further).

The solution to homeowners talking among themselves is transparency and providing accurate information, and letting them talk. If a few are trying to stir up trouble where none exists, they'll destroy their own credibility by spreading incorrect info - their neighbors will figure them out soon enough.

BRAD

How did the BOD remove you from the BOD?