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AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Fundamentally, how do CCR's work? If an activity or action is not specifically discussed in the CCR's (the total package of rules, regs, etc), how is that activity regulated?

Does every activity need permission if it is not specifically discussed in the CCR's? Or is that action allowed because the CCR do not address it?

In general, government acts as a set of 'negative' rules. Laws/Code/Statutes/etc describe what is not allowed, or describe how to allow a specific thing. If that thing is not described at all, it is presumed to be allowed.

What about HOA's?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
If the CC&R's don't distinctly address an issue, it is allowed unless subsequent boards of directors have passed policies, which can have effect but aren't as protected from change by a majority board vote. A major challenge is HOAs pass rules but don't have a robust record of policies being passed over a long period of time.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
However, your bee hives clearly fall under the nuisance term you've articulate in the other thread. The CC&R's wouldn't necessarily have to mention a species in order to regulate it.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
They're both. For example, the provisions that address assessments and other responsibilities are positive, and the ones that address prohibitions such as parking restrictions are negative. In addition, boards can make reasonable rules to supplement and clarify the CC&Rs as long as these rules don't contradict the CC&Rs.

However, CC&Rs will never be able to address every situation that can arise, which is where things can go off the rails. Most CC&Rs have prohibitions against "nuisance" activities, but different CC&Rs may interpret the word "nuisance" differently and different community demographics and characteristics will also affect this. Activities that may be just fine in a community with 5-acre lots can be a problem in communities with tiny lots or in condos.

CC&R provisions that require judgement calls are the bane of many board members' lives, but unfortunately they exist and the board has to enforce them along with the black-and-white ones such as "no on street parking".

To make things more confusing, many court cases have involved interpreting CC&Rs to decide whether or not a board has overreached, and you can find case law on either side of your question. This is why going to court is an expensive and time-consuming crap shoot - and why I often say that moving can be the fastest, cheapest, and easiest solution and nd the one where you're in control of the outcome.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
A correction, Adam, CC&Rs aren't "...a total package of rules, regs, etc." CC&Rs usually are one document. The bundle that you list usually comprising separate documents.The CC&Rs, Articles of Corporation, Bylaws and Rules & Regs together are "governing documents."

CC&Rs often give the Board the right to make policy and rules & regs about things that are not specifically addressed. Ours, for instance say that the Assn. can make rules about our visitor parking spaces. And we have many.

In your case, and assuming it's about bee keeping, I'd say the board could make a rule or policy prohibiting them based on the CC&Rs against insects.

In CA the assn. must send out proposed rules for a 28 day comment period to owners. Our board has modified at the subsequent required open meeting a proposed rule based on owners' comments.

Given what "CC&Rs" are an abbreviation of, it shouldn't surprise anyone that they do specify some limits. They also, however, specify Owner's rights: to vote on certain matters including certain kinds of dues increases, to decorate the interior of their condos anyway they wish, to use the common area amenities, etc., etc.

Your use of the word "negative" in your subject lines, Adam, reflects an attitude that doesn't suggest you're a very good fit in an HOA.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I take it this is your first time in a HOA - you'll find different people have different views, which is ok. Just remember what's true about our communities may be completely different in yours, so you need to learn how to live with yours.

Generally CCRs dictate how the common areas of the community are used, with the goal being to help preserve the overall look and design of the community. So, you start with considering what type of community you live in and what areas are considered common area vs. what's homeowner responsibility.

When you have communities with shared walls and roofs, like a townhouse community (I live in one), you may have more rules than a community of detached homes. You also need to remember CCRs are established by the developer, but after the community is turned over to the homeowners, they may decide to chant some things. Over time, the CCRs may change again, as people move on - the original owners may have felt one way about sheds, for example, but 10 years later, a new group moves in and may feel different.

This is why you'll never have every situation addressed by CCRs - there would be too many, and frankly, some shouldn't be necessary. If you're a responsible homeowner, you shouldn't need to be told to pick up after your pet, don't litter, play your music at the volume at 2 am, or park a bunch of cars on your grass.

Your bylaws generally dictate how the community is run, so if you read yours, you may notice it contains language saying the board of directors has the power to enact additional rules as long as they done supersede the CCRs. For examples, your CCRs might say exterior changes to the home must be more approved by the board. The board may be allowed to set certain design standards regarding, say approved heights, styles and colors of fences.

Those rules are typically approved by the board via a vote during a board meeting or a resolution. A good board will ask for homeowner input, draft the rule and ask for comments before a vote. Then it'll advise homeowners of an effective date, although some rules may need to be effective immediately.

Here's another approach to community rules. In my community, we adopted the county rules on parking as our community rules and have hired off duty police officers as security to make periodic drive throughs to look for cars with expired plates and or are inoperable - the drivers/owners must remove it or risk the car being towed at their expense. That helps prevent the community from looking like a junkyard.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
@KellyM3....curious why you think beehives fall under the nuisance term that is defined as sights, smells, sounds? Are you implying that the term nuisance is subjective and we don't need to follow the definition? If possible, I'd like to keep that conversation separate and in its own topic. This thread was the general concept of an activity that is not described anywhere in any docs/rules/regs/ccr's.
pick any example you want.

@KerryL1: Agreed, I'm all for moving forward with a discussion, comment period, rule change and vote on a given topic. My issue is that an HOA board seems to be stating "You must ask permission for everything, even if it isn't part of the rules." In fact, the Board Prez has stated "any action on a homeowner's lot must be affirmatively approved even if it is not in the CCR's"

Also, as an aside, "negative" is a common term in discussion to rights and rules and laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
I strongly disagree with your opinion here.

@SheliaH: totally agree. And if an action or behavior wants to be regulated, then the board should make a rule. But what if there is no rule or regulation? The board seems to want to make up stuff on the fly.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I was about to say something about your previous post about the beehive, but I see someone beat me to it. In some countries or states, the CCRs can be tougher than city or state legislation, but that doesn't always apply to everything, so depending on the situation, you may have to check them

When you move into a HOA, it's best to review the documents BEFORE you buy so you'll know if you can live with them. you don't get to ignore them just because you think they're stupid or outdated or don't apply because the city says you can do something. If you think the rule isn't clear of needs to be amended to make it more specific, find some like minded neighbors and petition the board to start a conversation about amending the CCRs - which usually requires a certain percentage of homeowners to agree, so if you're willing to do the work, have at it and good luck

in the meantime, CCRs can be enforced by homeowners against each other, so it's possible if you kept your hive and a neighbor got stung, you could be used for having something that wasn't allowed by the HOA to begin with. If the HOA didn't take action against you for getting the hive, it could also be used and if It lost, the money ALL homeowners, including you, paid to maintain the , would have to be used to pay the judgement. Why should others have to have their share of the resources used to pay for something you knew or should have known wasn't allowed, but you installed It anyway?

It would have been better if you'd discussed the hive with the board before getting it, perhaps talked to your closest neighbors to see how they felt before moving forward. But hindsight is 20/20 and it may not be too late to turn this around. If your board has an appeal process for CCR violations, use it and perhaps bring a beekeeping expert with you to help answer questions and perhaps help suggest a compromise that will make everyone happy?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 08/06/2021 10:59 AM
I was about to say something about your previous post about the beehive, but I see someone beat me to it. In some countries or states, the CCRs can be tougher than city or state legislation, but that doesn't always apply to everything, so depending on the situation, you may have to check them

When you move into a HOA, it's best to review the documents BEFORE you buy so you'll know if you can live with them. you don't get to ignore them just because you think they're stupid or outdated or don't apply because the city says you can do something. If you think the rule isn't clear of needs to be amended to make it more specific, find some like minded neighbors and petition the board to start a conversation about amending the CCRs - which usually requires a certain percentage of homeowners to agree, so if you're willing to do the work, have at it and good luck

in the meantime, CCRs can be enforced by homeowners against each other, so it's possible if you kept your hive and a neighbor got stung, you could be used for having something that wasn't allowed by the HOA to begin with. If the HOA didn't take action against you for getting the hive, it could also be used and if It lost, the money ALL homeowners, including you, paid to maintain the , would have to be used to pay the judgement. Why should others have to have their share of the resources used to pay for something you knew or should have known wasn't allowed, but you installed It anyway?

It would have been better if you'd discussed the hive with the board before getting it, perhaps talked to your closest neighbors to see how they felt before moving forward. But hindsight is 20/20 and it may not be too late to turn this around. If your board has an appeal process for CCR violations, use it and perhaps bring a beekeeping expert with you to help answer questions and perhaps help suggest a compromise that will make everyone happy?

I appreciate your input, but this is all under the assumption that there is a violation in the first place. Reading the CCRs, rules, regs, etc clearly shows that this is not something that is a violation and not something that is 'regulated.'

So my fundamental question here is this: if there is an activity/action/thing that you want to do AND is not mentioned or regulated in your HOA, do you need to ask permission?

Ex: Clearly, there is no HOA rule about wearing shorts in December. Do I need to ask permission to wear shorts while walking my dog? (I know this is silly, but to highlight a logical extreme).
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Ditto what CathyA3 posted.

Also, in the jargon of real property law, covenants can be either affirmative or negative. "Covenants that allow certain activities are called affirmative, while those that restrict are classified as negative covenants." I recall from reading case law that some court decisions involving covenants hinge in part on whether a covenant is affirmative or negative.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/06/2021 10:33 AM

Your use of the word "negative" in your subject lines, Adam, reflects an attitude that doesn't suggest you're a very good fit in an HOA.

I think you really need to do some research before making comments like this, IF yoy can't find the time.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 08/06/2021 11:04 AM

So my fundamental question here is this: if there is an activity/action/thing that you want to do AND is not mentioned or regulated in your HOA, do you need to ask permission?

Ex: Clearly, there is no HOA rule about wearing shorts in December. Do I need to ask permission to wear shorts while walking my dog? (I know this is silly, but to highlight a logical extreme).
It's not silly. It makes the point well. Of course no such permission is needed.

This has come up a lot in the case of HOAs, where the lots are sizable and the setting is rural, that want to prohibit, say, chickens. If the covenants are either silent on the subject of chickens or are on ambiguous on the subject, then the courts tend to find in favor of free enjoyment of property. (An ambiguity would be something like, "Dogs, cats and other domestic pets are allowed, but no fowl shall be raised on the lots." The courts have often ruled the phrase "domestic pets" may include chickens in some cases. This means the chicken owners often win.

But we all know what the goal here is: AdamL1 wants his beehives. His HOA's covenants have no specific restriction on beehives. But the covenants do have a restriction on "nuisances." As CathyA3 pointed out, and as AdamL1 has been advised in other threads, settling this may very well be an expensive legal battle. I continue to feel there is no question that he needs an attorney and that otherwise, the judge will toss his arse out of court, due to being some flavor of frivolous and wasting court time with jabberwocky. Furthermore, if either statute or the covenants either require the losing side to pay the prevailing side's attorney fees, or give the judge the option to assess attorney fees, I expect the judge to order AdamL1 to pay the HOA's attorney fees.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 08/06/2021 10:57 In fact, the Board Prez has stated "any action on a homeowner's lot must be affirmatively approved even if it is not in the CCR's"

With all due respect to your president, he is incorrect.

Generally, a homeowner can do anything that is not prohibited. The thought that the government or an HOA can regulate activity that does not violate any laws or rules is a little silly and I cannot imagine a court upholding it. If the HOA is accusing someone of violating CC&Rs, they should be able to quote the section they are violating.

As others have alluded to, it would not have to specifically mention something by name, e.g. a pack of loud hyenas could violate the nuisance rule even if there is no mention of animals.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
A nuisance is a subjective term based on the standards of a community, of which each one is unique in its own way.

Yard chickens can be a nuisance, especially roosters, in a suburban HOA neighborhood. So can cars on blocks being repaired by do-it-yourselfers that may be allowed in the non-HOA street one block away. Same goes for portable basketball goals. Some communities want playgrounds in common areas while others feature demographics that would abhor a playground with its unique noises and traffic patterns. Dog pens in the backyard are another.

Mainly HOAs will exist to enforce "quiet enjoyment" of the neighborhood, a term that clearly applies to noxious conditions (Loud sounds & smells) but also to stress and subjective annoyance if enough of your neighbors are stressed about activities on your property.

It's all a judgement call for the most part to some degree and most people know when their activities are not aligned with their community standards.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Look your bees are considered an "annoyance" even if you do not consider it such. I love bees and been involved with beekeeping myself. However, I would totally consider bee keeping a safety issue that may best fall under "annoyance". Not that bees are annoying but dealing with them is in a publc shared setting.

I used to work 3rd shift for a few years. When I wanted to sleep that is when people mowed. Lawnmowers are necessary and great tools. However, they are annoyance when you have people working various shifts. I got in a facebook fight once because I posted how annoyed I was listening to the sounds of lawncare. A person jumped on me for being angry about lawnmower noise. As if I was an unreasonable human being. It was the lawncare people rights to mow. Well yes it is and I had my own lawncare service. It did not mean that the noise was not an annoyance at 10 am after a 10 hour shift.

So bees are great and we need more bee keepers in this world. It just has to be done in the right context and situation. A HOA is typically not one of them. My ex and his dad did not live in a HOA. One was in the city and other in county in a HOA type community. Their bees did swarm. Which caused issues when trying to wrangle them back to the hive. I can imagine others not unerstanding be behavior this causing a panic situation. Swarms happen. You can not control it. Thus this is an annoyance to others.

Former HOA President
JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/07/2021 2:39 AM
Look your bees are considered an "annoyance" even if you do not consider it such. I love bees and been involved with beekeeping myself. However, I would totally consider bee keeping a safety issue that may best fall under "annoyance". Not that bees are annoying but dealing with them is in a publc shared setting.

I used to work 3rd shift for a few years. When I wanted to sleep that is when people mowed. Lawnmowers are necessary and great tools. However, they are annoyance when you have people working various shifts. I got in a facebook fight once because I posted how annoyed I was listening to the sounds of lawncare. A person jumped on me for being angry about lawnmower noise. As if I was an unreasonable human being. It was the lawncare people rights to mow. Well yes it is and I had my own lawncare service. It did not mean that the noise was not an annoyance at 10 am after a 10 hour shift.

So bees are great and we need more bee keepers in this world. It just has to be done in the right context and situation. A HOA is typically not one of them. My ex and his dad did not live in a HOA. One was in the city and other in county in a HOA type community. Their bees did swarm. Which caused issues when trying to wrangle them back to the hive. I can imagine others not unerstanding be behavior this causing a panic situation. Swarms happen. You can not control it. Thus this is an annoyance to others.

Thank you for your post, but the CCR's do not say anything about annoyances. I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Is your position that anything that annoys you should be regulated by the HOA, despite the CCR's not saying anything about it?
JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KellyM3 on 08/06/2021 8:31 PM
A nuisance is a subjective term based on the standards of a community, of which each one is unique in its own way.

Yard chickens can be a nuisance, especially roosters, in a suburban HOA neighborhood. So can cars on blocks being repaired by do-it-yourselfers that may be allowed in the non-HOA street one block away. Same goes for portable basketball goals. Some communities want playgrounds in common areas while others feature demographics that would abhor a playground with its unique noises and traffic patterns. Dog pens in the backyard are another.

Mainly HOAs will exist to enforce "quiet enjoyment" of the neighborhood, a term that clearly applies to noxious conditions (Loud sounds & smells) but also to stress and subjective annoyance if enough of your neighbors are stressed about activities on your property.

It's all a judgement call for the most part to some degree and most people know when their activities are not aligned with their community standards.

thank you for your post, but I strongly disagree with your position that 'nuisance is a subjective term.' Quite the opposite, it is clearly defined and described.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS122 on 08/07/2021 9:39 PM
I strongly disagree with your position that 'nuisance is a subjective term.' Quite the opposite, it is clearly defined and described.
I would have written [wink], "Whether beehives are a nuisance or not is clearly defined by a reading of the covenants, which explicitly references City Code. City Code in turn references the requirements for beehives. Please see my other thread where the covenant and city code are posted."

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