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AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Curious your thoughts on this and a few follow up ideas.

Some background:
- our HOA has refused to hold any and all meetings since spring 2019, claiming COVID concern to gathering.
- Our HOA has refused to provide financials, budget, annual statement, etc in 2+ years.
- our HOA has refused to identify who is on the board, committees, etc. They are claiming its a privacy concern and must be kept private.
- I and several other neighbors began pushing for meetings and financials, but the HOA board continued to refuse meetings, making up rules that did not agree with CCR's and State Code.
- I and several other neighbors knocked doors and gathered signatures to petition a special meeting.
- suddenly, the HOA board announced they will hold an annual meeting in 2 weeks.

So there's the background. It seems to me they are trying to do damage control. Anyway, the annual meeting they've scheduled is outside at a park pavilion at TBD time, in the heat. Understandably, I and many other neighbors have requested remote (ZOOM) access for the meeting, citing COVID concern and summer travel and being outdoors in the heat. The Board president very quickly responded saying that there are technical limitations, zoom can't handle the quantity of people (only 140 homes), they "do not want a recording of the meeting", and that the CCR's state that meetings must be at "a place" and that zoom is not a place.

Seriously.....wtf. So my question here is:
- clearly, the HOA boards response is unacceptable and not even in line with state law and CCR's. They don't want a recording of the meeting, and are trying to claim that virtual doesn't count.
- Can I just show up with a hotspot and a webcam/conference phone and say that I am connecting to the many many neighbors that want a remote option?

---------------------------------------
Read the HOA's statement quoted here:
Please note that the CC&Rs and ByLaws anticipate an in-person meeting, and all of our annual meetings have always been held in person. Our ByLaws require us to mail out meeting notices that describe a “place.” I suppose you could try to argue that a zoom or Facebook Live link can be a “virtual place,” but even fudging that issue, there would be many logistical problems in holding a virtual meeting of that size (we have 145 homes in Wood Duck). When we have our annual meetings, we ask each homeowner to sign in at the meeting, and all proxies are collected and counted as well. This creates a written record of all homeowners who are in attendance or represented via proxy and establishes a quorum so that the meeting can go forward.

It just seems more practical in this case to do it the old-fashioned way. This will also eliminate any questions of whether the meeting was properly held or whether the election of the new Board was valid. If there is a movement to hold virtual annual meetings of this size in the future, then I think the best way to go about it would be to revise the By-Laws to allow for this and set forth the special procedures that would be needed to carry this out properly. I for one would not want our annual meeting to be recorded on Facebook.
----------------------------------------
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
There's not a lot you can do about it. You ave a Board and/or management company that doesn't like to meet and deal with owners. There many like that. They would rather conduct business in secret. COVID-19 is the perfect solution to stop meeting in public and they will stick to that story.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Before you show up with your hotspot, make sure you know your state's laws about recording conversations. Some states require only one party's consent, other states require both parties to agree to the recording.

COVID did give an excuse to delay annual meetings, and from what we've heard on this forum, many HOAs went with Zoom or other online platforms even if their bylaws or state law required in-person meetings. You could make a good argument that this was the responsible choice, as it the choice to meet outdoors (because delta).

However, the secrecy about other stuff is a problem.

With most HOA issues, your choices are going to come down to fix it, live with it, or move.

Fixing it will take resources of some kind, either money for a lawyer or time and effort on your and your neighbors' part to elect different board members. Some states such as Florida and California have created options for homeowners to resolve disputes in other ways such as mediation or alternative dispute resolutions. I think some others may even have an ombudsman-like office where homeowners can go. But if your state doesn't have them, then you'll have to do this the hard way.

If you're not up for fixing it, then you have to decide if you can live with it or not.

I wish there were easier options, but there just aren't.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I have the feeling, but don't know, that there's no requirement to hold the annual meeting via, say, Zoom. If the board can stand the heat out of doors then I think owners should be able to as well. Don't know what you mean by "summer travel?" Surely this pavilion isn't far away?

Do you & those who agree with you have candidates to field to get rid of (part of) your secretive & non-compliant Board?

Do only votes by those who attend or who vote by proxy count? Or can ballots be mailed in or trend in to, say, the PM's office? Who counts the votes and where do they do it? May owners observe the tabulations?

Why do you think a recording of the annual meeting will be useful? to whom?

Can you give us example of written board rules that conflict with your docs or state codes?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Adam

Right or wrong, you like or not, the BOD has scheduled an Annual Meeting. I fail to see how they are restricting access to such. Good for them.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 08/04/2021 12:46 PM

- clearly, the HOA boards response is unacceptable and not even in line with state law and CCR's.-
Please name the Idaho statute sections and the CC&Rs that the HOA is violating by running a meeting at this pavilion and offering the usual opportunity to send a proxy or submit a proxy form. Thank you.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
There are obviously some serious concerns but I would not include refusal to have a virtual meeting to be one of them. I think the meeting should be in-person or virtual, not both. Assuming they are able to meet in person safely, that is what I would do. While they could probably overcome the technical difficulties in having a combination virtual and in-person meeting, I do not think it is worth the trouble.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Isn't an Annual Meeting also an election of directors?

Isn't the mininum notice to members, say 15 days

Are there any candidates? Any Ballots? Any proxies?
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
if its the annual meeting. doesn't a quorum of owners have to attend the meeting for a vote to take place . Maybe it's different in your state but in texas if the annual meeting doesn't meet quorum, then the election is moved to the next scheduled board meeting.

I would be concerned the board won't call another meeting.
actually I'm concerned about everything you brought up.

What the heck. they won't even tell you who is on the board. That board sounds like a stereotypical worst of the worst.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Laska

You posted: "Maybe it's different in your state but in texas if the annual meeting doesn't meet quorum, then the election is moved to the next scheduled board meeting."

That statement is emphatically not universally true in Texas. I realize your statement may be accurate regarding the association in which you reside, or may be the process your association uses, perhaps incorrectly.

We manage condominium associations and have never seen language like that in the documents of any condominium we have managed, nor in the documents of HOAs in which we have resided or managed.

The language we most often see allows for a 'second bite at the apple' follow on Annual Meeting to be held within some number of days, with a reduced quorum requirement.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/05/2021 4:03 AM
if its the annual meeting. doesn't a quorum of owners have to attend the meeting for a vote to take place . Maybe it's different in your state but in texas if the annual meeting doesn't meet quorum, then the election is moved to the next scheduled board meeting.

I would be concerned the board won't call another meeting.
actually I'm concerned about everything you brought up.

What the heck. they won't even tell you who is on the board. That board sounds like a stereotypical worst of the worst.

Meetings of the Membership are legally adjourned by the Members, NOT the Board.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 08/05/2021 7:27 AM
Posted By LaskaS on 08/05/2021 4:03 AM
if its the annual meeting. doesn't a quorum of owners have to attend the meeting for a vote to take place . Maybe it's different in your state but in texas if the annual meeting doesn't meet quorum, then the election is moved to the next scheduled board meeting.

I would be concerned the board won't call another meeting.
actually I'm concerned about everything you brought up.

What the heck. they won't even tell you who is on the board. That board sounds like a stereotypical worst of the worst.


Meetings of the Membership are legally adjourned by the Members, NOT the Board.

Have a question. If there isn't a membership quorum present, then there is no meeting, so how can they adjourn the meeting or rule to move it forward to a future date?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 08/05/2021 7:33 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 08/05/2021 7:27 AM
Posted By LaskaS on 08/05/2021 4:03 AM
if its the annual meeting. doesn't a quorum of owners have to attend the meeting for a vote to take place . Maybe it's different in your state but in texas if the annual meeting doesn't meet quorum, then the election is moved to the next scheduled board meeting.

I would be concerned the board won't call another meeting.
actually I'm concerned about everything you brought up.

What the heck. they won't even tell you who is on the board. That board sounds like a stereotypical worst of the worst.


Meetings of the Membership are legally adjourned by the Members, NOT the Board.


Have a question. If there isn't a membership quorum present, then there is no meeting, so how can they adjourn the meeting or rule to move it forward to a future date?

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Adjournment
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Thank you for comments, i'll respond going down the list.

@CathyA3: Idaho is a 1-party state. no issues there about convos. This current board has refused to provide any financials claiming there are no records of it, refused to hold any meetings in 2.5 years, refused to publish any minutes or newsletter or contact information for the board, etc. They even stated they do not want any recordings of our meeting.

@KerryL1: agreed. the CCR's just say to have meetings 'at a reasonable place'. The board has very cleary said they believe "place" means physical and if we are to do zoom, then we need 2/3's vote to amend the CCR's. This seems like quite the stretch.
https://vf-law.com/running-an-idaho-hoa-without-gatherings/
https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title30/T30CH30/SECT30-30-511/

@JohnC46: agreed, the board has finally scheduled a meeting after the members started soliciting a petition. My opinion about restricting is because the Board is refusing to allow zoom connection, phone call, or teleconference. They are claiming members need to be present in person....during a rising Delta surge and in the heat of a summer park.

@AugustinD: Idaho allows (and encourages) remote meetings during this pandemic. In fact, many nearby HOA's (and many run by the same PMC) have run zoom meetings consistently for the last 1.5 years. Our CCR's don't say anything about remote communications. Not allowed, not disallowed.
https://vf-law.com/running-an-idaho-hoa-without-gatherings/
https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title30/T30CH30/SECT30-30-511/

@BenA2: I understand your concern, but its 2021 and (the royal) we've been doing this zoom thing for nearly 2 years. Sorry, hiding behind the "technical difficulties" reason in not acceptable.

@MaxB4: yes, 10days minimum notice. yes, election. They scheduled this meeting after refusing to hold a meeting for last 2 years, claiming that it was too dangerous to hold a meeting during COVID, but then as soon as we started petitioning for a Special Meeting, they quickly announced the Annual Meeting. The board is claiming that only certain board seats are up for re-election, which is flatly incorrect.

@LaskaS: yes, there are quorum requirements outlined in the CCR and State Code. In summary, its ~1/3 of members, "in person, by proxy, by mailed written ballot, by absentee ballot, or by means of remote communication"
---------------------------------------------
I guess my main question is: can I just show up with a webcam and a hotspot and a conference phone? I can post on NextDoor the connecting details and show up and set up the 'table' at the meeting.

So, we are now 14 days out with no official notice of time or place, just a NextDoor press release saying "the board has worked diligently to find us a space for our annual meeting on Aug19th at this park nearby"

The Board scheduled this urgently after we started petitioning for a recall meeting. I strongly believe the board is trying to limit and reduce attendance. They chose a park several miles away instead of the park within our HOA. They have not released the time or exact location yet. They are refusing to allow "remote communication." They are stating they do not want the meeting recorded and it is closed to the public. I mean really, its mid-August summer heat during a surging pandemic. Many older members will not attend. Many active families have summer vacation.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Well, I'm of two minds here.

We have have had two annual meetings during the pandemic, both outdoors, both in the heat.

I wouldn't necessarily have objected to a Zoom meeting, but nobody's documents or state statutes anticipated an pandemic, so we were all hesitant about the validity of an election held over Zoom. A group of management companies tried to get the governor to issue an executive order allowing them, but legislators don't care about HOAs unless you have cash in hand to offer them.

Vacation? Not my problem. I can't pick a date that works for everyone.
Heat? We had cold water, fans, and shade structures, I encouraged people to bring chairs and umbrellas.
Distance? We had a big location onsite where people could sit or stand socially distanced, you may not.

Recording? Not a fan of it myself. I don't offer a recording but someone always does. Last meeting, we had someone livestream it on Facebook. I saw it later...nothing but a minute by minute heckling of everything that was said. I'd thought we had a great meeting, I made a slideshow of social events, talked about the board's achievements, gave awards to volunteers, discussed future plans. It was a positive, upbeat meeting and then I had to see comments from a bunch of armchair warriors making fun of the whole thing. And lots of complaints that the meeting was boring. To which I say - in a well run HOA, meetings are boring! Boring is great! Boring means there are no massive conflicts, you're not broke, and everyone's doing what they are supposed to do.

All that said - I make sure the board I work for is extremely transparent. Financials posted monthly. Board meetings open to the residents, minutes posted promptly (those are boring too). Ask me a question about the HOA and I will bore you to death with a prompt and exhaustive explanation.

Your board should be less secretive, but I see nothing wrong with their current plans for this meeting.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Adam wrote: "... there are quorum requirements outlined in the CCR and State Code. In summary, its ~1/3 of members, 'in person, by proxy, by mailed written ballot, by absentee ballot, or by means of remote communication.'"

So if owners can mail in ballots, everyone has a chance to vote, right? They don't need to endure the heat. Also don't think this in your CC&Rs but in your Bylaws, right?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 08/05/2021 7:43 AM
... snip ...
I guess my main question is: can I just show up with a webcam and a hotspot and a conference phone? I can post on NextDoor the connecting details and show up and set up the 'table' at the meeting.

So, we are now 14 days out with no official notice of time or place, just a NextDoor press release saying "the board has worked diligently to find us a space for our annual meeting on Aug19th at this park nearby"

The Board scheduled this urgently after we started petitioning for a recall meeting. I strongly believe the board is trying to limit and reduce attendance. They chose a park several miles away instead of the park within our HOA. They have not released the time or exact location yet. They are refusing to allow "remote communication." They are stating they do not want the meeting recorded and it is closed to the public. I mean really, its mid-August summer heat during a surging pandemic. Many older members will not attend. Many active families have summer vacation.


Association business does not belong on social media. As for a hotspot, keep in mind that wifi hotspots generally lack the bandwidth and the security needed for this. While it's unlikely that any state secrets will be revealed, the annual meeting is not open to the public nor should it be.

My sense it that you're itching to make trouble, and you're likely to get it. This is not the way to address issues in an HOA.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 08/05/2021 7:43 AM
AugustinD: Idaho allows (and encourages) remote meetings during this pandemic. In fact, many nearby HOA's (and many run by the same PMC) have run zoom meetings consistently for the last 1.5 years. Our CCR's don't say anything about remote communications. Not allowed, not disallowed.
https://vf-law.com/running-an-idaho-hoa-without-gatherings/
https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title30/T30CH30/SECT30-30-511/
nNone of this says that the HOA is violating the law or covenants. If you want a leg to stand on in your disagreements with the HOA, you need more ammo than 'Idaho allows (and encourages)... ' yada.

Regarding recording: It seems you are in a public space. I do not see that anyone would have an expectation of privacy. Supposedly Idaho is a one-party state. I say: Go for it. If the Board tells you to stop, then calmly state what I just said here. If the Board threatens to suspend the meeting because you are recording, then let them. One step at a time.
TristaJ (Texas)
Posts: 96
Posted:
Barbara, off topic here be/c I don't know how to or if I can private message, but would you mind e-mailing me? I have a couple of questions about HOA mgt company's role, etc. New to getting involved with the community and I need someone from Texas who has some wisdom to offer.

[email protected]

Any help would be appreciated.

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