Resolutions vs Amendments

Started by BethM9 • 40 replies • 569 views

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BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

I am new to the HOA world as well as this forum so I hope I'm not out of line when I pose my situation and ask for opinions. It is of the same subject matter.

We have a Master HOA and 17 Sub HOA in our development. Regarding street parking, our Master bylaws reflects NO OVERNIGHT STREET PARKING (MIDNIGHT - 6 A.M.). Our Sub HOA changed their bylaws in 2011 to reflect NO STREET PARKING DAY OR NIGHT, with no proposed amendment, no mention of any kind in the minutes. Finally, I was provided with a resolution.

I asked the following; "why is this one sub association different than the other 16, in that we now have NO PARKING DAY OR NIGHT while the other sub associations chose not to make the same change? And how is it that our sub association was permitted to change our bylaws without regard for it's members? And, as it is my understanding that sub associations cannot adopt rules that conflict with a master associations' Declaration and Bylaws was the new restriction even enforceable?"

This is the answer I received, "You mention minutes of 2011. HOAs are only required to keep minutes for 7 years. I have always advocated all rules imposed by HOA Boards should be in resolution form and held separate from minutes for future reference beyond the 7 years. For a few years, rules were mandated to be recorded with the county. Now HOAs are back making rules without recording. I don't see where you are going to be able to dispute the parking rules with the County, City, and Deed Restrictions backing up your local HOA."

Am I misinterpreting Section 720.306(1)(e) of the Florida Homeowners’ Association Act?

With a whole lot of reading and researching and studying I'm starting to notice inconsistencies and am becoming uncomfortable with the whole situation.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

BethM9,

First, in general, sub-associations may have covenants; bylaws; and rules and regulations that are more restrictive than those in the master association's covenants; bylaws; and rules and regulations.

Second, parking restrictions are usually given in an association's Declaration of covenants. In other words, covenants are usually the place to find restrictions on the use of land, a lot, or a condo unit. By contrast, the Bylaws tend to have the requirements for voting; serving on the board; running elections; having meetings; and the like. Would you please confirm that it is the Master Association bylaws and the Sub Association bylaws (and not the Master's covenants nor the Sub's covenants) that address parking?

Third, please quote verbatim the procedure for amending the section of the Sub's Declaration (or Bylaws) that addressed parking.

Fourth, have you any proof that an amendment to the Sub's Bylaws/covenants was properly voted on and passed?

You are asking a legal question. Hence: Precision is important. Having a good handle on the vocabulary here is important.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Beth
Typically a BOD Rule/Regulation cannot override a Covenant nor Bylaw so begin with what your Covenants say about street parking.

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Unfortunately, as you can tell I have not mastered an understanding of the vocabulary as of yet. The Master Covenants provided on line are pdf files from images so not searchable. No amendments over the years are available and as far as I can tell, based on looking at the minutes there was no mention of amending anything pertaining to parking.

As I mentioned, when I began asking questions I was sent a copy of a resolution as proof of the change. Regarding the procedure, I think the President answered when he said he advocates for resolution rather than amending and keeps them separate from the minutes. He further elaborated saying that nothing is recorded.

I'm sure this is not what you need in order to assist but I thought I would take my chances when I found this site. I have good instincts and all I know is something isn't feeling right.

I appreciate your efforts in trying to help

Thank you.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/03/2021 2:58 PM

As I mentioned, when I began asking questions I was sent a copy of a resolution as proof of the change. Regarding the procedure, I think the President answered when he said he advocates for resolution rather than amending

No doubt he feels this way because amending is complicated and time-intensive.

But if the Master Declaration/Bylaws says what you reported, then the Board almost assuredly cannot pass a "resolution" that is an (unlawful) attempt to amend what is in the Master Declaration/bylaws and/or what is in the Sub Declaration/Bylaws.

I agree with your instincts.

I think you should plow through the Master Declaration/Bylaws and the Sub Declaration and Bylaws. Locate the sections that address parking, and report back here what they say.

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Thank you . I do exactly that and come back for more direction. Can I get a full set of documents including amended docs from the county office? Of I get them from there can I be certain to get the full and legal set?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/03/2021 4:56 PM
Thank you . I do exactly that and come back for more direction. Can I get a full set of documents including amended docs from the county office? Of I get them from there can I be certain to get the full and legal set?

Is this a condo or non-condominium HOA?

Florida statute requires that the HOA/COA keep, as official records, a copy of the Declaration and a copy of all the Bylaws, and all amendments to these. You have a right under Florida statute to inspect these documents at a reasonable time. You have a right to obtain a copy of these records at a reasonable expense to you.

I would email the managers of the Master and Sub association and state, "Pursuant to Florida statute, please provide a time when I may review the Declaration and Bylaws, and all amendments to these documents, for both the Master Association and the Sub Association. Thank you, ____."

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Strictly single family HOA.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/03/2021 5:41 PM
Strictly single family HOA.

You might want to review at least the sections of Florida Statute 720 on "official records" and "inspection and copying of records" at http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720.html

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

I will do that.

When it comes to discussing statues with our President, every time I think I understand the contents he comes back at me with a watered down bylaw of sorts.

For example, this is an excerpt from a conversation where I've asked about getting sufficient notice of meetings other than signs on the side of the road outside of the entrance to our development as well as an agenda so that we know what's going to be discussed and can plan for it.

Beth: are details as to who attended each meeting included in minutes? As well, are details of each member's concerns made part of the minutes?
Is the agenda to each upcoming meeting posted on signs as well?

President: The minutes include the names of the Board Members, Management, and Neighborhood Reps who attend. Usually, in the past, the concerns have been posted. All HOA boards have been handicapped by Covid. Zoom is made for business with a paid expert usually hosting the meeting. Board members are individuals who have some problems with not having training on zoom like the business world. I am to making excuses. It is just the way it is.

Beth: can you please address the question I asked regarding minutes? Minutes serves as our history to what occurred at each meeting and so the question is relevant.

President: all minutes are totally available according to Florida Law. If you email Pointe Management with a request, they will send you the minutes you request. The thing is ALL Florida HOAs are to be transparent to all businesses except personal records and pending attorney-client privilege. The law says you must send a certified letter but Chapel Trail allows an email request only. A whole year can be asked for as they are on pdf.

Beth: FL Statute 720.306 Meetings of members; voting and election procedures; amendments

(5) NOTICE OF MEETINGS.—The bylaws shall provide for giving notice to members of all member meetings, and if they do not do so shall be deemed to provide the following: The association shall give all parcel owners and members actual notice of all membership meetings, which shall be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the members not less than 14 days prior to the meeting. Evidence of compliance with this 14-day notice shall be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed upon execution among the official records of the association. In addition to mailing, delivering, or electronically transmitting the notice of any meeting, the association may, by reasonable rule, adopt a procedure for conspicuously posting and repeatedly broadcasting the notice and the agenda on a closed-circuit cable television system serving the association. When broadcast notice is provided, the notice and agenda must be broadcast in a manner and for a sufficient continuous length of time so as to allow an average reader to observe the notice and read and comprehend the entire content of the notice and the agenda

President: The operative word here is "Members Meetings." But, even at that, the members are the Neighborhoods, and notice is given to the Neighborhood Representatives by the CTOA By-laws.
(c) The bylaws shall provide the following for giving notice to parcel owners and members of all board meetings and, if they do not do so, shall be deemed to include the following:
1. Notices of all board meetings must be posted in a conspicuous place in the community at least 48 hours in advance of a meeting, except in an emergency.

That's it; nothing else is required.

It's been difficult to say the least but I'm still persisting.

CarissaM
Posts: 119

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/03/2021 6:56 PM
I will do that.

When it comes to discussing statues with our President, every time I think I understand the contents he comes back at me with a watered down bylaw of sorts.

For example, this is an excerpt from a conversation where I've asked about getting sufficient notice of meetings other than signs on the side of the road outside of the entrance to our development as well as an agenda so that we know what's going to be discussed and can plan for it.

Beth: are details as to who attended each meeting included in minutes? As well, are details of each member's concerns made part of the minutes?
Is the agenda to each upcoming meeting posted on signs as well?

President: The minutes include the names of the Board Members, Management, and Neighborhood Reps who attend. Usually, in the past, the concerns have been posted. All HOA boards have been handicapped by Covid. Zoom is made for business with a paid expert usually hosting the meeting. Board members are individuals who have some problems with not having training on zoom like the business world. I am to making excuses. It is just the way it is.

Beth: can you please address the question I asked regarding minutes? Minutes serves as our history to what occurred at each meeting and so the question is relevant.

President: all minutes are totally available according to Florida Law. If you email Pointe Management with a request, they will send you the minutes you request. The thing is ALL Florida HOAs are to be transparent to all businesses except personal records and pending attorney-client privilege. The law says you must send a certified letter but Chapel Trail allows an email request only. A whole year can be asked for as they are on pdf.

Beth: FL Statute 720.306 Meetings of members; voting and election procedures; amendments

(5) NOTICE OF MEETINGS.—The bylaws shall provide for giving notice to members of all member meetings, and if they do not do so shall be deemed to provide the following: The association shall give all parcel owners and members actual notice of all membership meetings, which shall be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the members not less than 14 days prior to the meeting. Evidence of compliance with this 14-day notice shall be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed upon execution among the official records of the association. In addition to mailing, delivering, or electronically transmitting the notice of any meeting, the association may, by reasonable rule, adopt a procedure for conspicuously posting and repeatedly broadcasting the notice and the agenda on a closed-circuit cable television system serving the association. When broadcast notice is provided, the notice and agenda must be broadcast in a manner and for a sufficient continuous length of time so as to allow an average reader to observe the notice and read and comprehend the entire content of the notice and the agenda

President: The operative word here is "Members Meetings." But, even at that, the members are the Neighborhoods, and notice is given to the Neighborhood Representatives by the CTOA By-laws.
(c) The bylaws shall provide the following for giving notice to parcel owners and members of all board meetings and, if they do not do so, shall be deemed to include the following:
1. Notices of all board meetings must be posted in a conspicuous place in the community at least 48 hours in advance of a meeting, except in an emergency.

That's it; nothing else is required.

It's been difficult to say the least but I'm still persisting.

For a Board Meeting we provide the 48h by way of sign at the exit of the community and no agenda. I make copies available at the meeting if requested. And that is all that is required.

For a Member Meeting we provide the 14d notice by way of sign at the exit of the community and also provide a newsletter with an agenda because a member meeting does require an agenda.

We do have to keep minutes and make those available. And I keep them pretty short and concise. A quick example, Chad Collins voiced concerned with hedges encroaching on property from Al Roberts. Board resolved to notify Al Roberts to trim his hedges. At the next meeting, this will be old business to follow up.

For all meeting minutes, I include the attendees in the minutes and a copy of the homeowner sign in sheet.

With a reluctant to be helpful board you must keep persisting.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Carissa
We do have to keep minutes and make those available. And I keep them pretty short and concise. A quick example, Chad Collins voiced concerned with hedges encroaching on property from Al Roberts. Board resolved to notify Al Roberts to trim his hedges. At the next meeting, this will be old business to follow up.

I for one would argue that what you posted above as being in the Minutes, should not be in the minutes. Minutes are for legal reasons and this is not a legal issue. I can agree with general statements in the minutes such as The BOD discussed parking violations. No action was taken. Basically what goes in the minutes are a record of Motions Made and the result of that Motion.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Tend to agree with John. Minutes should contain the details about Al or Chad, but simply: "The Board voted to direct an owner to trim his hedges." What owners attended and all of their comments is inappropriate for minutes of board meetings.

The minutes should only include date/time/place of meeting. Which directors attended and when the meeting was adjourned. Otherwise it contains the names of Committee reports, Items for board discussion or action and the Board's motions, votes and final decision on an action item.

It sounds like the president is not very knowledgeable. You n might be better off asking some questions of the property manager.

CarissaM
Posts: 119

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 08/04/2021 8:45 AM
Carissa
We do have to keep minutes and make those available. And I keep them pretty short and concise. A quick example, Chad Collins voiced concerned with hedges encroaching on property from Al Roberts. Board resolved to notify Al Roberts to trim his hedges. At the next meeting, this will be old business to follow up.

I for one would argue that what you posted above as being in the Minutes, should not be in the minutes. Minutes are for legal reasons and this is not a legal issue. I can agree with general statements in the minutes such as The BOD discussed parking violations. No action was taken. Basically what goes in the minutes are a record of Motions Made and the result of that Motion.

Thanks for your help John, we just followed what the prior BOD did which was to include the resident who voiced a concerned and basics of the concern. I have heard to keep them short and concise so we don’t go into the fact that homeowner A had a five minute diatribe about why it’s an issue just that there’s an issue brought before the board at a meeting, we discussed it and we had a plan to address it. But if we don’t need to say WHO brought the concern, it makes my job easier.

When we volunteered for these positions we elected to keep doing what the prior board did, so I just used their minutes as a “go by” if you will.

CarissaM
Posts: 119

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/04/2021 9:37 AM
Tend to agree with John. Minutes should contain the details about Al or Chad, but simply: "The Board voted to direct an owner to trim his hedges." What owners attended and all of their comments is inappropriate for minutes of board meetings.

The minutes should only include date/time/place of meeting. Which directors attended and when the meeting was adjourned. Otherwise it contains the names of Committee reports, Items for board discussion or action and the Board's motions, votes and final decision on an action item.

It sounds like the president is not very knowledgeable. You n might be better off asking some questions of the property manager.

This is incredibly helpful, thanks KerryL.

Our minutes template is more thorough than that and actually includes a place for homeowner attendees so we just filled it out or attached the sign in list. Never really looked into why we did it, just followed the prior board. We were provided a template for a BOD meeting and for a Member meeting when we joined the BOD. None of us are very knowledgeable about the proper way to run the meetings and unfortunately we are the only people who generally attend meetings so we sort of got stuck with the job because of an apathetic neighborhood. No one wants the job, we don’t want to pay a PM to do it because of the expense. We had people who didn’t know telling people who didn’t know what to do. But hey, that’s why I’m here, so I can learn the ways of the board and managing it correctly.

So in the future I just say homeowner voiced concern over hedges and board resolved to notify the hedge owner at that occurred at 7:22pm.

We don’t do a lot of those Robert’s Rules either so we motion to start and second the motion and then we motion to end and second the motion. The rest is just general chatting that follows the prepared agenda with a new business space for whatever else comes to mind.

If we were bigger, had more engagement, etc. we might be more inclined to follow those to maintain order but we have three people attending (the BOD) and one homeowner so we keep it casual. This is probably a no-no but no one has complained.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Davis-stirling.com is a cite by a CA HOA legal firm. While is has a lot specific to CA, it's also VERY useful to HOA boards across the nation in general ways. Take a look at their excellent Index and go Meeting Minutes. Another area that's very useful is Contracts.

You'll see some sample minutes and maybe a citation from Robert's Rules. One thing is, for instance, the President simply calls the meeting to order. There's no need to motion & second.

But directors should vote on other matters. "Making a plan" isn't voting so the "plan" may need to be broken up into "parts" that can be voted on.

Never let an owners rant for 5 minutes. Most that I've seen here allow owners to speak for 3 minutes, in my HOA it's two.

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not anyway in favor of robbing residents of their rights. Our board, unfortunately agrees with on your point. Homeowners barely get 2 minutes and then they are railroaded to feel insignificant, irrelevant. Let's not forget that the home owners run and fund these associations.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/04/2021 2:42 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not anyway in favor of robbing residents of their rights. Our board, unfortunately agrees with on your point. Homeowners barely get 2 minutes and then they are railroaded to feel insignificant, irrelevant. Let's not forget that the home owners run and fund these associations.

Beth, we limit comments to 3 minutes. The board only meets once a month and the major objective of the meeting is to conduct business and not to engage with homeowners when it will keep us from completing the business that needs taken care of. In the event that the homeowner needs more than their allotted time I always make it clear how they can reach out after the meeting to discuss their issue. Most of the time, the ones that need more than 3 minutes need to be directed to the property manager and not an individual board member. In cases where the homeowner wants to argue about something I shut them down cold.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I have been using Zoom since the pandemic to conduct board meetings, special meetings, annual meetings and elections. It has a recording feature which I have used for every meeting and those are all saved for reference.

I will always include the names and number of the units that attended the meeting, either virtually or in person. I also include a brief description of the subject a homeowner brings up so owners knows someone is listening. Nothing may ever get done, but at least we listened and knowledged their comment.

I happen to conduct the meetings as i am somewhat an expert in using this format from my days at Countrywide. The meetings run smoothly and without a hitch. IMO, boards that refuse to hold meeting because of the "difficulties" are just coping out.

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Then you would fit in nicely with ours. And you did say previously that you did not allow for the 3 minutes and shut them down at 2. Low to no HO engagement is a problem. And in my view, actions like that along with utilizing your PM as a buffer after the fact only adds to it. I always take the position of neighbor first. But that's just me.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/04/2021 4:00 PM
Then you would fit in nicely with ours. And you did say previously that you did not allow for the 3 minutes and shut them down at 2. Low to no HO engagement is a problem. And in my view, actions like that along with utilizing your PM as a buffer after the fact only adds to it. I always take the position of neighbor first. But that's just me.

No I did not. You have the wrong John. Also, the fact that you are so sure of yourself despite being new to HOA's and the ease of which you are ready to make snide comments tells me that you have a lot to learn.

Utilizing the property manage when appropriate is smart business and be careful what you define as low HOA engagement when you have no idea what myself and others are doing. Our board has bent over backwards to communicate with homeowners in many different ways. The board meetings primary purpose is to conduct the business. As long as you are providing homeowners with a way to get their answer after the meeting then there is no problem.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BethM9 on 08/03/2021 6:56 PM

Beth: are details as to who attended each meeting included in minutes? As well, are details of each member's concerns made part of the minutes?
Is the agenda to each upcoming meeting posted on signs as well?

President: The minutes include the names of the Board Members, Management, and Neighborhood Reps who attend. Usually, in the past, the concerns have been posted. All HOA boards have been handicapped by Covid. Zoom is made for business with a paid expert usually hosting the meeting. Board members are individuals who have some problems with not having training on zoom like the business world. I am to making excuses. It is just the way it is.

Beth: can you please address the question I asked regarding minutes? Minutes serves as our history to what occurred at each meeting and so the question is relevant.

As has been pointed out, best practices for Board meeting Minutes are to state only which directors are present; the start and end time of the meeting; what motions, if any, were made and what the vote on the motion was. If this is all a Board puts in its Minutes, then it is breaking no law nor covenant. If you want the Minutes done differently, then I suggest you run for the board, preferably with a like-minded group who can win a majority of the board seats.

I personally do not support putting the names of the owners who attended in the minutes. I think doing so in fact discourages attendance.

I also feel it's bad practice to put the name of any owner who asked a question or expressed a concern, as this tends to chill participation in my opinion.

Can you please state your concerns regarding notice?

I do agree with your concerns about parking, as stated in the first post here. If you keep reading here, parking is a leading cause of disputes and angst at a HOA/COA. Developers find being stingy about parking pays them better, so HOAs/COAs often end up with some pretty dismaying parking arrangements.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Whoa, Beth. As some have noted you really do have a great deal to learn. To repeat: Board meetings are to conduct the business of the association. They are not meant to be gripe sessions for individual Owners. At board meetings, owners are observers NOT participants. Owners are participant at Meetings of the membership.

Depending on the services of an HOA's PM, many, many questions go to them. We have full-service contract. Our guidelines for owners' open forum (required in CA) is that maintenance questions should be handled with the PM outside of board meetings. In same HOAs, where board members DO physically handle maintenance, it's different

Two-3 minutes per owner comment is plenty. They usually may have a 2nd or 3rd turn. We also offer two open forums before the meeting and one at the end. Another reason to not include owner's name with their comments is the possibility of misquoting them.

In our HOA of 200+ condos, we routinely have Owner attendance of 35+ since we began Zoom. We have 25% absentee or part-time owners, so now 3-4 of them attend each month We now have hybrid meetings, still have 35+ attend with maybe 15 in person last Tuesday. These never turn into exchanges between the owner and a director or the PM. All Owners remarks/questions are made and open forum is closed. Then, we directors or the PM respond or answer every owner. Our current board is open and civil with owners. We voted out an abusive, rude and arrogant Board in Nov. '19.

In CA agendas must be posted with the meeting notice and it cannot be changed AT the meeting, i.e., nothing can be added except in basically urgent circumstances. I don't think FL has a notice requirement, but ours comes to owners via e-blast 4 days ahead of the meeting with the agenda and Zoom info attached. It seems a poster at the entrance would be sufficient, but here, during the pandemic, many owners did not leave the premises for days.

In case some of Beth's rather haughty remarks are directed at me, I never forget that all of us owners fund our HOAs. We DO, however, elect directors to govern. The president does not rule and I think that yours, Beth, has been quite generous with replies to you.

Btw, what do FL states say about keeping meeting minutes. In, Ca, it's basically forever.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/04/2021 5:42 PM
I don't think FL has a notice requirement,

Board meeting notice requirements for Florida HOAs are extensive, per FS 720.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oops, thanks, Augustin. I do know that. I don't know if the meeting agenda must be included with the notice in FL as is required in CA.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

What best practices are people referring to? There are maybe 20 regular posters here and of those, maybe 15 are board members, and how many actually take the minutes of their board meetings or have someone else do it?

We had a board member who was Secreatry, who never took minutes. Our property manager took the minutes and ran the meetings. This one person would not open their baord packet until the meeting started, even though they recieved it 4 day prior. Most of the meeting she would be grading her class assignments.

Here is a sample minutes I have used over the years. In California, it is required that owners have some alloted time to address the Board during Open Forum. It's important that the minutes reflex who showed up, whether it is included in the minutes or attached as a sign in sheet. In all my years of managing, never have I had an owner ask their name or unit be withheld from the minutes.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 08/04/2021 5:52 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/04/2021 5:42 PM
I don't think FL has a notice requirement,

Board meeting notice requirements for Florida HOAs are extensive, per FS 720.

I actually looked up the "extensive" requirements for board meeting notices. 48 hours notice and the only thing that by statue has to be on the agenda is if an assessment is to be levied, either regular or special.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

The extensive requirements for Florida HOA Board Meeting notice are given in FS 720.303 (2), section (c) (1); section (c) (2); and (d), some 500 words of text.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 08/04/2021 6:18 PM
It's important that the minutes reflex who showed up

Nonsense. Which owners showed up, and what the owners said, have no importance whatsoever.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Tell us WHY which owners showed up and what they said is " important" in a meeting of the BOARD. Owners are simply observers who, in many states may offer remarks during open fora. They are not members of the "assembly" at Board meetings.

In HOAs with full PM service, like mine, the PM writes the draft minutes for all board meetings. As secretary, I review them before they go in the directors report, which goes to directors a few days before our meetings. I only correct for typos like "reflex" instead of "reflect." Only The board at the next meeting can make content changes and approve the minutes.

Over the 13 years I've served on this Board, I can think of only two directors who did seem to not review their board packets. We've had a few others who seem to have reviewed only items of particular interest to them. Our Pms always contribute, but our presidents have always presided.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 08/04/2021 7:28 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 08/04/2021 6:18 PM
It's important that the minutes reflex who showed up

Nonsense. Which owners showed up, and what the owners said, have no importance whatsoever.

And you base that cr$p on YOUR vast experience?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

MaxB4, I am pretty sure your purpose for naming names in Minutes is to retaliate as needed.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/04/2021 7:43 PM
Tell us WHY which owners showed up and what they said is " important" in a meeting of the BOARD. Owners are simply observers who, in many states may offer remarks during open fora. They are not members of the "assembly" at Board meetings.

In HOAs with full PM service, like mine, the PM writes the draft minutes for all board meetings. As secretary, I review them before they go in the directors report, which goes to directors a few days before our meetings. I only correct for typos like "reflex" instead of "reflect." Only The board at the next meeting can make content changes and approve the minutes.

Over the 13 years I've served on this Board, I can think of only two directors who did seem to not review their board packets. We've had a few others who seem to have reviewed only items of particular interest to them. Our Pms always contribute, but our presidents have always presided.

I only correct for typo's, like open fora?

As far as what goes in the minutes, I base that on training from various HOA professionals, management companies and attorneys. Again, you base what your place does on what your person who writes your minutes does.

The owners of an HOA pay my salary, they also keep the association afloat. Yes, owners are "observers, but they don't make remarks, they ask questions. Questions that other owner like themselves ask. California requires that owners be allowed to address the board during "their Board meeting. I have always made it a point to include a summary of their comments in the minutes. IF, a board member want to step up and take the minutes, they can do it in any format they so choose.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 08/04/2021 8:12 PM
MaxB4, I am pretty sure your purpose for naming names in Minutes is to retaliate as needed.

To retaliate for what exactly? You really need to grow up!

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

MaxB4: Mange tes sous-vêtements sales.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 08/04/2021 8:15 PM
MaxB4: Mange tes sous-vêtements sales.

Is this what you meant to say? My bitch eats my panties! - aufeminin.com

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

It is extensive, if you compare it to what they say is required, which is a sign posted outside the development 48 hours in advance. In that situation I would literally have to go outside my front entrance in the morning and at the end of the day each and every day so as not to miss it. When I stessed the point to the both the PM and the President, each said that's all we are required to do.

And yes, you all are correct in that I have much to learn. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm reading everything I can get my hands on. And I do apologize for my sarcastic attitude. I am frustrated, and very very tired.

Regarding minutes, there are plenty of "homeowners discussed many things" in them. Regarding voting the Board annually, although statute allows for a second meeting with a decreased quorum if they were unable to reach quorum initially, they have chosen not to do so, for 11 years. The board has voted themselves in every year for 11 years.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I actually practice in California, but because of antics from Augustin, such as above, have had to change my name 3 times.

Being from California, we do have stricter rules for HOA's, most are to help protect homeowners. We have always had to have an agenda, but in the old days, we could just put old and new business. Now, we have to specific with the agenda items and they can't be changed, unless in an emergency. I agree with the change, as it allows the owners to make the decision whether to show up based on what was being discussed and voted on.

Unfortunately State politics do play a role in how HOA's are regulated. California is a deep blue state, from top to bottom, while Florida may be a purple state nationally, it is deep red in state politics. One likes state regulations, the other doesn't. Could the tragedy of Surfside been lessened or even prevented if in California. With almost 400,000 HOA's in the United States, it might be time for better regulations and more accountability across state lines. What I like in California, is we have one set of statues for Condos and PUDS, we just called them HOA, and we have what most other states have and that is Corporation Code.

Your point about quorum is a problem nationwide, but it won't change until people get their heads out from where the sun ain't going shine.

This link might help with Florida HOA issues, https://communityassociations.net/florida-resources/

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Re: voting, Beth, I was talking about directors voting at their board meetings. Don't they in your HOA? That's what should be in minutes--the actions they took or even when they don't take a vote, i.e.: "the Board decided to take no action on the request to reduce assessments." The old expression, "Minutes should contain what was done, NOT what was said," is a good summary of what should be in minutes.

Max wrote, sort of citing me, "I only correct for typo's, like open fora? " First, Max, it's simply "typos." Sounds I do think fora is the plural for forum. Not sure. You could look it up.

Our MC certainly has a template for minutes, which comports with everything I've read about them in Robert's Rules and elsewhere. I think the only changes our boards have made is to add a second open forum and an agenda category: "Owner items." Yeast ago their said Old Business, but nowadays, it's Unfinished Business.

We've had occasional emergency meetings after hours/on weekends and I, as Board sec'y, do write the draft minutes on the MC's template.

CarissaM
Posts: 119

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/05/2021 9:15 AM
Re: voting, Beth, I was talking about directors voting at their board meetings. Don't they in your HOA? That's what should be in minutes--the actions they took or even when they don't take a vote, i.e.: "the Board decided to take no action on the request to reduce assessments." The old expression, "Minutes should contain what was done, NOT what was said," is a good summary of what should be in minutes.

Max wrote, sort of citing me, "I only correct for typo's, like open fora? " First, Max, it's simply "typos." Sounds I do think fora is the plural for forum. Not sure. You could look it up.

Our MC certainly has a template for minutes, which comports with everything I've read about them in Robert's Rules and elsewhere. I think the only changes our boards have made is to add a second open forum and an agenda category: "Owner items." Yeast ago their said Old Business, but nowadays, it's Unfinished Business.

We've had occasional emergency meetings after hours/on weekends and I, as Board sec'y, do write the draft minutes on the MC's template.

I really like that you put minutes should be what was done and not what was said. That is super helpful.

BethM9 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Want to thank everyone for taking the time to offer your expertise. I've come to understand that a single individual like myself, literally void of HOA knowledge will not foster change at this point. Our community, including myself have been complacent, neglectful really, far too long to make any changes now. As you can tell by the board reelecting themselves for the past 11 years. Everyone I have spoken to pretty much feels defeated and is not willing to step up. Many of us have raised our children here and simply count their blessings when they get to spend time with their grandchildren, so I get it. I on the other hand sported a warrior feather on my headgear back in the day... Guess there's still some of that fight left. Still contemplating having that feather tatooed one day. Meanwhile, our only grandson is up and over there in Cali where some of you are.

Again, thanks for all the help. I sincerely appreciate it.

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