Fence being installed, no modification request

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

We have an owner who is installing a fence that did not fill out a modification request. His neighbor pointed it out, noting that he didn't sign off as required on a modification request form. Our weak HOA management company notified us of it and sent a violation letter. Big deal. Is there anything else we can do? Or the neighbor? It doesn't seem right that he can just do this without taking the proper steps to get permission. We are fairly certain that there was no permit given by the city we live in either. (Holly Springs GA)

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Does your HOA have a schedule of fines nd a process by which you can call this Owner to a hearing and fine him? can't you instruct him after a hearing (if required in GA) to halt the work and face possible additional fines?

Tho' it rarely happens in our HOA, ignoring ARC approvals can result in a big fine and putting the changed item back into its original condition.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Does your HOA have a schedule of fines nd a process by which you can call this Owner to a hearing and fine him? can't you instruct him after a hearing (if required in GA) to halt the work and face possible additional fines?

Tho' it rarely happens in our HOA, ignoring ARC approvals can result in a big fine and putting the changed item back into its original condition.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/30/2021 10:52 AM
Does your HOA have a schedule of fines nd a process by which you can call this Owner to a hearing and fine him? can't you instruct him after a hearing (if required in GA) to halt the work and face possible additional fines?

Tho' it rarely happens in our HOA, ignoring ARC approvals can result in a big fine and putting the changed item back into its original condition.

We do have fines. It's 25 dollars a day. I don't want to let it get that far. He could file the modification request after the fact, but it requires neighbors on both sides and the one across the street to sign off on it. One neighbor doesn't like the guy at all, so he will be a no. He has had other violation letters sent for various things. Weeds, parking in the road, other stuff, so I don't foresee him being reasonable about this. To compound things, this is our first big deal to come up. The developer turned it over to us in May. Good times.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Well found out that the city will not issue a permit without our modification approval request form, so no permit from the city.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Are you on the board? If so, why are you against using fines if warranted?

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

This is the job of the Board of Directors and the Management company to solve this issue. Your job is to follow-up with the Board at their next meeting and inquire.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 07/30/2021 11:26 AM
Are you on the board? If so, why are you against using fines if warranted?

I am the President. I would really like to get this sorted out in a way that is least likely to cause neighbor drama. I am not against using fines, but if we get to that then it has probably gone sideways between them, and our hand is being forced.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 07/30/2021 11:40 AM
This is the job of the Board of Directors and the Management company to solve this issue. Your job is to follow-up with the Board at their next meeting and inquire.

I am on the Board and serving as President.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lowell

Asking permission or not, is the fence being erected within your guidelines? Also if there are fence guidelines and one follows them I do not see why they need permission from adjoining owners, especially one across the street.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/30/2021 11:53 AM
Lowell

Asking permission or not, is the fence being erected within your guidelines? Also if there are fence guidelines and one follows them I do not see why they need permission from adjoining owners, especially one across the street.

I agree about the neighbors, but that is the form we have. We don't have to make a decision based on if a neighbor likes it or not, but it at least helps us know if the neighbors are amicable to it. There is also the issue of if it will affect run-off when it rains. Our houses sit so close together, so neighbors are a consideration. The property also sits in a non-pervious stream buffer which will most likely result in the fence not being allowed anyway. Apparently, an engineer has to look at the impact the fence posts have? Not sure but I do know it's a big deal to the city. I have no idea if the fence is being installed properly or not because I am not there to see it and with no modification request I have no details of what he has decided to install.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

If this requires a city permit and one hasn't been issued, have you tried to get the city involved? Perhaps a stop work order from them would have more weight small fines from the association.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 07/30/2021 12:13 PM
If this requires a city permit and one hasn't been issued, have you tried to get the city involved? Perhaps a stop work order from them would have more weight small fines from the association.

That's where are as of now. The city is issuing a stop-work order.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

So wouldn't this be the perfect time to tell the owner to fill out the form? Honestly, it sounds like you are asking how to avoid following the procedures. Once owners get wind of this good luck keeping things under control.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 07/30/2021 12:53 PM
So wouldn't this be the perfect time to tell the owner to fill out the form? Honestly, it sounds like you are asking how to avoid following the procedures. Once owners get wind of this good luck keeping things under control.

How do you get that from my questions? I said I wanted to get this handled in a way that keeps bad feelings to a minimum. I stated that I don't even want to fine the guy. I want HIM to follow procedures. That's where all this went wrong. We approve a couple of modification requests a month and have only denied 1, a neighbor wanted to remove her trees in the front yard, but our city requires that we have 2 trees in the front yard, so not much we could do with that. I have no control on what the city decides about this fence. If they are happy with the fence going in and if he submits the modification request form, and if it is within guildlines, and then files for a permit from the city once it is approved, then there is no issue for me. The issue I DO have is that he took it on himself to ignore the proper steps that we all follow to put up a fence. As I said before, I am not home so I can't talk to the guy yet, but I will try to this afternoon once I do get home. He is a repeat offender though, and has had words with his neighbor over a few things, so I am concerned he is going to try to push back.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LowellH1 on 07/30/2021 1:15 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 07/30/2021 12:53 PM
So wouldn't this be the perfect time to tell the owner to fill out the form? Honestly, it sounds like you are asking how to avoid following the procedures. Once owners get wind of this good luck keeping things under control.

How do you get that from my questions? I said I wanted to get this handled in a way that keeps bad feelings to a minimum. I stated that I don't even want to fine the guy. I want HIM to follow procedures. That's where all this went wrong. We approve a couple of modification requests a month and have only denied 1, a neighbor wanted to remove her trees in the front yard, but our city requires that we have 2 trees in the front yard, so not much we could do with that. I have no control on what the city decides about this fence. If they are happy with the fence going in and if he submits the modification request form, and if it is within guildlines, and then files for a permit from the city once it is approved, then there is no issue for me. The issue I DO have is that he took it on himself to ignore the proper steps that we all follow to put up a fence. As I said before, I am not home so I can't talk to the guy yet, but I will try to this afternoon once I do get home. He is a repeat offender though, and has had words with his neighbor over a few things, so I am concerned he is going to try to push back.

I got this impression because you have stated that you have not asked the person to fill out the form and unless I am mistaken you still haven't. If the city approves the fence why would he suddenly decide on his own to fill out the form? You need this form now to determine if it meets your guidelines. I hope your conversation with him goes well.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 07/30/2021 1:24 PM

Posted By LowellH1 on 07/30/2021 1:15 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 07/30/2021 12:53 PM
So wouldn't this be the perfect time to tell the owner to fill out the form? Honestly, it sounds like you are asking how to avoid following the procedures. Once owners get wind of this good luck keeping things under control.

How do you get that from my questions? I said I wanted to get this handled in a way that keeps bad feelings to a minimum. I stated that I don't even want to fine the guy. I want HIM to follow procedures. That's where all this went wrong. We approve a couple of modification requests a month and have only denied 1, a neighbor wanted to remove her trees in the front yard, but our city requires that we have 2 trees in the front yard, so not much we could do with that. I have no control on what the city decides about this fence. If they are happy with the fence going in and if he submits the modification request form, and if it is within guildlines, and then files for a permit from the city once it is approved, then there is no issue for me. The issue I DO have is that he took it on himself to ignore the proper steps that we all follow to put up a fence. As I said before, I am not home so I can't talk to the guy yet, but I will try to this afternoon once I do get home. He is a repeat offender though, and has had words with his neighbor over a few things, so I am concerned he is going to try to push back.

I got this impression because you have stated that you have not asked the person to fill out the form and unless I am mistaken you still haven't. If the city approves the fence why would he suddenly decide on his own to fill out the form? You need this form now to determine if it meets your guidelines. I hope your conversation with him goes well.

He has to fill out the form and submit it to the city in order to get a permit. We made our 3rd attempt to contact him at his home today. Our HOA management company is content to fine him until he fills out the form. I am trying to avoid that for him. So no, I am not being mean-spirited here.

SheilaJ1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 291

Posted:

Sorry I don’t think you can fine him unless your documents specifically state that a failure to file an application is deemed a violation of these covenants. So you have to look for these words. You probably also have to give a hearing before fines and all that requires time and some costs.

And no unless your documents state it does not require a signature for an approval application to be approved, signatures are only for notification purposes. Please stop making up things unless you have the authority via the docs.

Post the wording of your docs and stop getting crazy over procedural stuff, stick to what is in the docs. You are being mean spirited because I don’t think you’re liking at your documents.

SheilaJ1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 291

Posted:

Also do not ever talked to neighbors directly, let management and certified letters do the talking.

LowellH1 (Georgia)
Posts: 21

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheilaJ1 on 07/31/2021 3:18 PM
Sorry I don’t think you can fine him unless your documents specifically state that a failure to file an application is deemed a violation of these covenants. So you have to look for these words. You probably also have to give a hearing before fines and all that requires time and some costs.

And no unless your documents state it does not require a signature for an approval application to be approved, signatures are only for notification purposes. Please stop making up things unless you have the authority via the docs.

Post the wording of your docs and stop getting crazy over procedural stuff, stick to what is in the docs. You are being mean spirited because I don’t think you’re liking at your documents.

You make no sense in your wording. We absolutely require an HOA-approved document for the fence. Our board must approve the installation of a fence as the first step. Installing a fence without HOA approval is legal grounds for fines. Our CC&R is airtight with the wording on this. The city requires a copy of our approval before they will issue a permit to install a fence. He has none of those things. Our HOA management company can and will by Georgia law, begin to fine him each day until he complies, because he has installed a fence without following even a single rule required the approval process. The board is not fining him, we as members of our neighborhood board, have nothing to do with fines. That is the HOA management's job. They will and intend to. The failure to file a modification request is a direct violation of our HOA CC&R and bylaws. This is also actually a violation of city ordinances, because the HOA approval form is required when filing for a permit with the city. We are sticking to the docs like superglue in this. We have to because the city is now involved. So what is your issue in how we are handling this? We are using the word of our CC&R and our bylaws as our guide.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

"The board is not fining him, we as members of our neighborhood board, have nothing to do with fines. That is the HOA management's job."

This is entirely wrong. The management company's job is to take direction from the board. The board has the ultimate authority on when to fine and under what circumstances. From everything you have written so far it sounds like the board is doing everything they can to avoid confrontation because it makes you uncomfortable. Earlier you called the HOA management company 'weak' but I would argue the board is weak by not standing up to an owner who is blatantly defying the rules. Why he has not been fined by now is beyond me.

SheilaJ1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 291

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LowellH1 on 07/31/2021 11:18 PM

Posted By SheilaJ1 on 07/31/2021 3:18 PM
Sorry I don’t think you can fine him unless your documents specifically state that a failure to file an application is deemed a violation of these covenants. So you have to look for these words. You probably also have to give a hearing before fines and all that requires time and some costs.

And no unless your documents state it does not require a signature for an approval application to be approved, signatures are only for notification purposes. Please stop making up things unless you have the authority via the docs.

Post the wording of your docs and stop getting crazy over procedural stuff, stick to what is in the docs. You are being mean spirited because I don’t think you’re liking at your documents.

You make no sense in your wording. We absolutely require an HOA-approved document for the fence. Our board must approve the installation of a fence as the first step. Installing a fence without HOA approval is legal grounds for fines. Our CC&R is airtight with the wording on this. The city requires a copy of our approval before they will issue a permit to install a fence. He has none of those things. Our HOA management company can and will by Georgia law, begin to fine him each day until he complies, because he has installed a fence without following even a single rule required the approval process. The board is not fining him, we as members of our neighborhood board, have nothing to do with fines. That is the HOA management's job. They will and intend to. The failure to file a modification request is a direct violation of our HOA CC&R and bylaws. This is also actually a violation of city ordinances, because the HOA approval form is required when filing for a permit with the city. We are sticking to the docs like superglue in this. We have to because the city is now involved. So what is your issue in how we are handling this? We are using the word of our CC&R and our bylaws as our guide.

Sorry you make no sense because you haven’t posted the wording of your docs. I think you’re confused between rules and covenants. And usually signatures of neighbors are never required and are only fir notification purposes.