Assigned Parking for no garage houses. What about those with garages?

Started by RaR • 79 replies • 1771 views

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RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I live in a townhome community with three types of houses: 2 car garage, 1 car garage, and no garage. I have a 2 car garage house. Recently the HOA (recently handed by the developer to the community) decided to assign 2 parking spaces from the overflow parking areas to the garageless houses. They said that those with garages are not entitled to any street parking and must use our garage and driveway. We paid a premium to have a garage in addition to the same access to overflow parking spaces. Why should our private property affect the distribution of community property? It would be like restricting my use of the community park because I paid extra to have a backyard.

I can empathize w/HOs without garages… but I believe they knew what they were buying when they did.

Nothing was brought to my attention by the developer/builder (including By Laws - pre-purchase) citing that future homes without garages would be guaranteed parking spaces bc there simply won’t be enough parking for dual-working families.

Long story short… I paid for my parking (aka a garage & driveway) but others did not; and now though, they can list their homes with dedicated parking provided by partial HOA board members.

The builders/developers apply a standard, off the shelf HOA to the community and haul tail KNOWING FULL WELL of the untenable situation THEY CREATED in the design of this community yet the HOA board members exercises a sharp tone towards HOs — as a whole — as if they’re SOLELY TO BLAME for the parking conundrum in the community.

In the Community Facebook page, one board member posted: “Pro tip: read you HOA Bylaws! We all had/have an opportunity to voice our concerns over neighborhood changes, especially when notices have been released prior to these changes. You can also use your time constructively by attending board meetings to address concerns.” I have sent multiple emails to the HOA and HOA president about this issue and yet HOA still proceeded to do this (no voting among homeowners occurred; HOA decided to implemented this and painted on several overflow parking spaces with house numbers effectively assigning them to garageless homeowners). I am seriously considering to take this to court and currently also thinking about gathering support of some neighbors. How do I proceed? Please give me advice. Thank you very much! I live in Maryland.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I kind of see this as a fair compromise. I see that you paid for 2 car parking plus you have a driveway to park in. That is like 4 parking spaces just for you. Not to mention the other what 2 dedicated parking spaces? Why need that many while others have none?

Doesn't your HOA dues cover the parking? If so, those people are paying for parking too with their dues as well. Maybe I am missing something here but this seems pretty fair for everyone to SHARE.

NOTE: MOST HOA's require you to park in garage. If you want to use your garage as "storage" and not parking then must face the consequences. Which is park in the driveway if allowed or find other parking options.

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

I can't tell what, if any, real problem this has created for you. Are you digging in based solely on some principle of yours? If not, can you explain exactly how this arrangement will hurt you?

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Only the garageless homes received assigned overflow parking.
The 1car and 2 car garage HO were just basically told to use their garages and driveways. It’s like the they’re saying homes with garage are not allowed to use the community park because they have a backyard.

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

My stand is that theHOA cannot take a common element and turn it into a limited common element to just the select few and expect everyone to keep paying the same dues. There is no reason why not all homeowners shouldn’t be entitled to the same number of on-street assigned parking lots. It should be evenly distributed to all homeowners. The board cannot just give exclusive use of one communal property and not do the same for another homeowner. Losing out on these parking spaces in the overflow is diminishing value to my property (losing parking spaces available) especially when I try to sell in the future.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RaR on 07/05/2021 3:43 AM
Only the garageless homes received assigned overflow parking.
The 1car and 2 car garage HO were just basically told to use their garages and driveways. It’s like the they’re saying homes with garage are not allowed to use the community park because they have a backyard.

Will there still be spots left in the overflow parking area after all garage less owners are assigned spots? If so, what do you care? Do the people who have no garages normally park on the street? If so, what they did makes perfect sense. If the value of homes with no garages increases because they now have reserved parking, don't you benefit from this?

You never answered my question on how this is directly hurting you.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Where would you suggest that the no-garage folks park their vehicles after those with garages fill them up with junk and decide to use the open parking areas instead? Or are the no-garage folks just SOL?

The proposed assigning of spaces is a very common solution to this sort of situation - although I wish developers wouldn't create these situations to start with since they're setting up the communities for additional conflicts over parking.

Generally developers and association boards can create parking rules as needed, so long as the rules are reasonable and are consistent with the community's governing documents.

(And the bit about using community parks is a false equivalence. You're using the community park won't prevent anyone else from using it - assuming you're not hogging the whole thing - but your use of a parking space will stop someone else from using it. Apples and oranges.)

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

I believe the OP has accurately identified the core issue:

"My stand is that the HOA cannot take a common element and turn it into a limited common element to just the select few and expect everyone to keep paying the same dues. There is no reason why not all homeowners shouldn’t be entitled to the same number of on-street assigned parking lots."

The HOA as a body can approve, following the 'process', an amendment to the Governing Documents to implement a reassignment of the common elements but the Board as an entity cannot unilaterally do so.

It may not seem right or fair with respect to the units without garages however, the properties were purchased with no assigned parking and the buyers knew or should have known that.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Like RaR and BillH10, I am homed in on the following for now:

Quote:

Posted By RaR on 07/05/2021 3:49 AM
My stand is that the HOA cannot take a common element and turn it into a limited common element to just the select few and expect everyone to keep paying the same dues.

RaR, what does your HOA/COA's Declaration say about the powers of the Board (if any) to convert common element to limited common element? Also what does your HOA/COA's Declaration say about the powers of the board to regulate parking?

DeidreB (Virginia)
Posts: 113

Posted:

Hi RaR,

I agree with you. I fought this very same fight in a Virginia Townhome Association and won (without having to go to court). I just stood my ground and fought with facts. HOA common area is owned equally by ALL.

Consult with Maryland's relevant HOA laws. Unless your By Laws or Declaration allow for the Board to subdivide or redistribute common area to different owners, I think they are over reaching.

Also, check out this reference. The Sully II case in Virginia addresses a very similar case (a different state so again check your state HOA law).

https://www.virginiacommunityassociationlaw.com/2013/11/articles/covenant-enforcement/parking-rights-and-common-area-common-element-can-the-association-or-declarant-do-that/

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

You may have a point about the common area, but frankly, this the most selfish attitude I've seen on this site. If you feel strongly about this, go ahead and see if you can rally your neighbors to pressure the board, but don't be surprised if you fall on your behind.

It may be those with garages will go along with this, but if your documents indicate a majority of homeowners have to approve amending them?in this case, redefining what the common areas vs. limited common areas and parking rules), you'll also have to convince a portion of those without garages - good luck with that. Do you have the guts to say to their faces "hey, you knew what you were buying when you bought a townhouse with a garage, ha, ha (sounding like Nelson from the Simpsons)? Probably not

By the way, developers NEVER create enough parking space in HOA communities. That doesn't make money - selling as many houses as possible is what they do. Once upon a time, most households had or two cars, but today a family may consist of teens or young adults, all with their own car, so it becomes a matter of musical chairs to figure out where to put them all.
Thats how life evolved and many HOAs do their best to accommodate everyone, but it isn't easy.

I live in a townhouse community and have an attached garage (one car, but its just me ) I also use a take hone state owned car that I park in front of my house. It can be a little tricky since my neighbors across the street have three cars (two are SUVs) and no garage. Your community sounds like mine in that the developer didn't build many houses with garages, I suspect it was because the community was built out in the 1979s and most of the original owners had downsized and didn't need a garage. Or they were too cheap - that could be why they went bankrupt.

I was also on my board for 10 years and we always wrestled with parking, ranging from not enough for the majority of the residents to assigned parking to towing away cars that didn't belong and ask to squabbles between residents when a visitor of one would park in the assigned space of another. last weekend my next door neighbor had a gathering when the guests were parked everywhere, including in front of my garage when I was about to leave to run errands.
Hopefully, my harrumping and the sti k eye I 5hrew at the offending guest will prevent that from happening again

It sounds to me your board is trying g to come up with a fair compromise, and since it appears you have plenty of room for your vehicles, I don't see the problem. If I were on your board, I'd probably tell you to have several seats - and come up with a better idea. Try that first before you start babbling about suing people.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

I will add a comment to my previous post:

If the monthly (or whatever interval) dues/assessments are in any way calculated on a percentage basis, such as square footage relative to the whole, then there should be a recalculation of the dues/assessments for each property in recognition of the fact those without garages now have assigned parking places which changes the square footage or common area denominator for every unit on the property.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 07/05/2021 9:08 AM
I will add a comment to my previous post:

If the monthly (or whatever interval) dues/assessments are in any way calculated on a percentage basis, such as square footage relative to the whole, then there should be a recalculation of the dues/assessments for each property in recognition of the fact those without garages now have assigned parking places which changes the square footage or common area denominator for every unit on the property.

Interesting. Though I think many condos assign the maintenance responsibility for LCE parking to the condo. Which makes sense: Parking lots are not re-paved one parking space at a time.

I really need to read what the covenants say about converting common area to LCE and who has the maintenance responsibility for parking.

For me right now, it's hard to say whether the HOA is actually bestowing a material benefit on the owners of townhomes who have no driveway nor garage.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Sent too soon:

Also, if this change has not followed the Bylaws of the Association vis a vis an amendment, it will only take one owner to bring action against the Board to force the situation to revert to the language in the documents.

Example: A client, the newly formed board of a condo, brand new building, was told by the builder, on a post it note (I have a picture of it), the monthly assessments were $200.00, share and share alike.

When we were engaged, we told the Board almost immediately the Declaration stated the assessments were to be calculated on the basis of the of the unit air conditioned square footage relative to the entire air conditioned square footage of all six units. The Board, and first owners, were all young, first time owners, egalitarian, and felt "we should all pay the same amount".

Well, after about 30 months, Unit A had a corporate relo. The new owner was an investor. He and his attorney promptly called me the day after closing and asked a meeting of the Board and owners be convened to 1) allocate the assessments as described in the Declaration, or 2) initiate a process to amend the documents.

Well, guess what happened: Unit A is the smallest, Unit E is the largest, Units B,C, D, and E vary in square footage by less than 5 square feet and their assessments were affected one way or the other by only a few dollars. There were not enough votes to amend, so Unit A saw a reduction of about $75.00, Unit E an increase of about $75.00, the others went up about $5.00.

I have no issue with the underlying intent of the Board in the OP, nor, from what has been written, does the OP. But, his point is, and with my story so is mine, do it the right way or do not do it at all.

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/05/2021 8:43 AM
You may have a point about the common area, but frankly, this the most selfish attitude I've seen on this site. If you feel strongly about this, go ahead and see if you can rally your neighbors to pressure the board, but don't be surprised if you fall on your behind.

Selfish? If you call protesting HOA's action that benefit select homeowners and not all, selfish, then so be it.

Yes this is currently what is happening right now. HO with garages are pissed.

Quote:

It may be those with garages will go along with this, but if your documents indicate a majority of homeowners have to approve amending them?in this case, redefining what the common areas vs. limited common areas and parking rules), you'll also have to convince a portion of those without garages - good luck with that. Do you have the guts to say to their faces "hey, you knew what you were buying when you bought a townhouse with a garage, ha, ha (sounding like Nelson from the Simpsons)? Probably not

Yes. Of course! We have a Facebook group for our community and its not just me who has "the guts to say to that to their faces." Some postings say "unless the property deeds state that each unit without a garage includes X amount of parking spaces then the parking spaces are communal property." Another post even stated "My bad but I believe they knew what they were buying when (they bought their houses)." And those were just some of the more civil comments. Its getting intense. And HO without garages where awfully quite in that Facebook group. LOL

Quote:

By the way, developers NEVER create enough parking space in HOA communities. That doesn't make money - selling as many houses as possible is what they do. Once upon a time, most households had or two cars, but today a family may consist of teens or young adults, all with their own car, so it becomes a matter of musical chairs to figure out where to put them all.Thats how life evolved and many HOAs do their best to accommodate everyone, but it isn't easy.

Whats happening though is, HOA are threatening to ticket HO with garages if HO w/ garages are observed to use the remaining overflow parking and they have an empty driveway, while those HO w/o garages are saving their newly assigned parking space for their other cars(some houses has 3 to 4 cars) and still occupying the overflow supposedly reserved for visitors. LOL. For our household for example. We have 3 cars and the three of us are playing musical chairs on how to fit them in the garage and the driveway as we work different shifts as first responders.

Quote:

I live in a townhouse community and have an attached garage (one car, but its just me ) I also use a take hone state owned car that I park in front of my house. It can be a little tricky since my neighbors across the street have three cars (two are SUVs) and no garage. Your community sounds like mine in that the developer didn't build many houses with garages, I suspect it was because the community was built out in the 1979s and most of the original owners had downsized and didn't need a garage. Or they were too cheap - that could be why they went bankrupt.

I was also on my board for 10 years and we always wrestled with parking, ranging from not enough for the majority of the residents to assigned parking to towing away cars that didn't belong and ask to squabbles between residents when a visitor of one would park in the assigned space of another. last weekend my next door neighbor had a gathering when the guests were parked everywhere, including in front of my garage when I was about to leave to run errands.
Hopefully, my harrumping and the sti k eye I 5hrew at the offending guest will prevent that from happening again

It sounds to me your board is trying g to come up with a fair compromise, and since it appears you have plenty of room for your vehicles, I don't see the problem. If I were on your board, I'd probably tell you to have several seats - and come up with a better idea. Try that first before you start babbling about suing people.

If you are on the board, you'll probably get sued too. lol. I think this is where its heading right now. Many are angry. HOA should not be tilting benefits towards people with cheaper units and usurping benefits from people with more expensive units.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

The board may as well tackle the whole issue before one or more of Un-garaged needs a reasonable accommodation to allow parking as close to their unit as possible. And before anyone cries "they knew what they were buying before they signed the paperwork", keep in mind that many disabilities are unplanned - if we could plan for 'em, we'd be better able to avoid 'em altogether.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 07/05/2021 9:24 AM
Also, if this change has not followed the Bylaws of the Association vis a vis an amendment, it will only take one owner to bring action against the Board to force the situation to revert to the language in the documents.

Example: A client, the newly formed board of a condo, brand new building, was told by the builder, on a post it note (I have a picture of it), the monthly assessments were $200.00, share and share alike.

[snicker, anticipating what's coming next]

Quote:

When [BillH10's PM Company was] engaged, [the PM company] told the Board almost immediately the Declaration stated the assessments were to be calculated on the basis of the of the unit air conditioned square footage relative to the entire air conditioned square footage of all six units. The Board, and first owners, were all young, first time owners, egalitarian, and felt "we should all pay the same amount".

[more snickering]

Quote:

Well, after about 30 months, Unit A had a corporate relo. The new owner was an investor. He and his attorney promptly called me the day after closing and asked a meeting of the Board and owners be convened to 1) allocate the assessments as described in the Declaration, or 2) initiate a process to amend the documents.

Well, guess what happened: Unit A is the smallest, Unit E is the largest, Units B,C, D, and E vary in square footage by less than 5 square feet and their assessments were affected one way or the other by only a few dollars. There were not enough votes to amend, so Unit A saw a reduction of about $75.00, Unit E an increase of about $75.00, the others went up about $5.00.

Gotta love those so-called ankle biters. Because this so-called ankle biter was darned right.

Covenants are a contract. A deal is a deal.

Quote:

I have no issue with the underlying intent of the Board in the OP, nor, from what has been written, does the OP. But, his point is, and with my story so is mine, do it the right way or do not do it at all.

Depending on all the facts here, I would not be quite so generous to the Board in the OP's case here. I could give a darn about 'kind intentions' or 'common sense' when it comes to a board that makes things up as it goes along. To me, kind intentions and common sense must mean: Follow the covenants, state statutes and federal FHA law.

I agree about doing it the right way.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RaR on 07/05/2021 9:32 AM
If you are on the board, you'll probably get sued too. lol.

After a year or so in litigation, do post back whether you are still laughing.

If the HOA attorney and your group's attorney are at all competent, no one will ever file a lawsuit in court.

Quote:

I think this is where its heading right now. Many are angry. HOA should not be tilting benefits towards people with cheaper units and usurping benefits from people with more expensive units.

It depends. You talk big, and very much like someone pretty new to all this, but to me, there's no substance in your posts until you post exactly what the covenants say on these subjects.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree with Bill, Augustin & Deidre. Overflow parking should be available to all residents. Owners of 2-car garages paid to share this COMMON AREA O'Flo pk. when they bought their homes. All owners pay to maintain those areas.* All owners even paid the have house numbers painted on these space, is that right, RA?

Garageless owners should not be able to exclusively use these common areas, with the latter two words being the key words.

Ra is not being selfish to want what he paid for and STILL pays for.

So, Ra, what DO the covenants sy you converting common areas to exclusive use (or "limited use") common area, if anything.

Did your HOA already have rules for those with garages, i.e., that residents must park their car in their garages or driveways? That garages must not be used for storage but must always be available for 1 or 2 cars as the case may be? I know little about these kinds of rules but they seem common in HOAs with limited parking. If Ra's HOA doesn't have these rules, some version might help all Owners.

Meanwhile what does the Board call appropriating Common area for the exclusive use of some owners? A policy? A rule?

You might be misusing the word Bylaws, Ra. Make sure you distinguish what is in the Bylaws vs. what is in your covenants (CC&Rs, declaration, deed restrictions).

* We have deeded parking spaces in our underground garage (condo bld.) that are exclusive use common areas. The HOA maintains them, but owners are responsible for keeping them free of liquid leaks and must store nothing in them but one car. Smaller condos here have just one such space. AND they paid less for their condos partly due to having only one space in our parking challenged-urban neighborhood..

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

If I were on your Board I would have the Board vote to take this to the HOA attorney and have your documents reviewed. Or you can take the documents to your chosen attorney for review to find out if you even have grounds to sue.

Rumors running around about someone suing the Association causes friction and division of owner's. Once you have your attorney's opinion you can decide what action you can take. Or all the owner's against the assigned parking can seek election at the next Annual meeting.

Our CCR's allows the Association to assigned parking spaces.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Almost forget, Ra. So there's already plenty of dissension. Still get a group together who supports your position to gather to write a dignified letter to your Board requesting that they overturn their previous decision.

If the Board doesn't' rescind its decisions, convince your support group to join you in paying for an attorney to interpret your governing documents and advise you how to proceed.

Get your language straight! The "HOA" didn't make & implement the new policy or rule, The Board did. (Forget about blaming the developer).

Is there a difference between "street parking" and "overflow parking, Ra?" Put another way, is all parking that's not in your driveway & garage now numbered parking?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Hit a nerve, did we? Sorry - not sorry. I still think you ( and the other folks with garages) are being selfish, so I agree with Melissa, John, Cathy and Augustin, who's very good at deciphering bylaws and CCRs. I note you didn't provide the citation he asked about - either you haven't read that part or there something in it that gives the board the authority to manage the common areas as appropriate, and now you want to sue.

You can do that, but if you're now whining about loss of property value, you'd better come up with something real to prove it. The word value is subjective, meaning what you think is important or not may be the opposite to someone else. There are dozens of reasons why houses sell or not - can you PROVE a garaged unit didn't sell or bring in the desired price because the overflow lot was a deal breaker?

Those are common areas that All of you pay for, so since you already have space due to your two car garage and the driveway it sits on, maybe you and the folks who agree with you should pay extra to use the overflow lot. After all, if you choose to use a garage for storage instead of your car and now have to find a spot for you other vehicle, that was a choice YOU made, wasn't it?

Or...why not designate the lot for visitors only and NONE of you could use it, no matter how many cars you own. Would that make you happy?

Now let's play a numbers game. How many units are garageless vs. those with garages? What do they do for parking right now. How many spots are in the overflow lot and how many spaces would be left, if, say, each of those units got one assigned space? Remember, you and your pals with garages have at least two spots. If assigned some of the overflow would even things out a bit and the rest is first come first served for everyone, what's the problem? Your neighbors have a parking issue - once again, what would YOU suggest to try and resolve it other than saying you're SOL?. That type of thinking can backfire on you someday.

I don't know who's on your Facebook group page, but just because you haven't heard from so eone without a garage doesn't mean they don't have an opinion. For all you know, there developed their own little group and are developing strategies. Posting on Facebook or this site for that matter is easy. Talking to someone face to face is different, do have you actually done that? If not, go talk to a few people and see what they say. I dare you - who knows, maybe you and they will come up with a compromise everyone can live with.

A final thought - you say there are three cars in your household and have to play the musical chairs game. I don't know how long your driveway is but when I would visit my sister, I'd park at the end of their driveway, which left enough room for her and my brother in law to go around my car and park as usual. Maybe you should try that instead of racing to see who gets to use the garage, if you're using part of it as storage, you may benefit from purging some of your stuff, buy some shelves to organize the rest, and then you can actually use your two car garage

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/05/2021 11:24 AM
Those are common areas that All of you pay for, so since you already have space due to your two car garage and the driveway it sits on, maybe you and the folks who agree with you should pay extra to use the overflow lot. After all, if you choose to use a garage for storage instead of [for] your car and now have to find a spot for you other vehicle, that was a choice YOU made, wasn't it?

Heh heh. Dang. SheliaH, I think we need to put you in a courtroom, representing the HOA. Good one.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I love this Monday morning quarterbacking. Not one person except the OP has seen or knows what's in the CCRs and you all are guessing what should happen. I think they can add this to the YouTube channel " H.O.A., the Series.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Both Augustin & I have asked Ra for the wording in the CC&Rs (covenants) about HOW the common areas may be closed off, or assigned to only certain owners, or sold off, etc. Until Ra gives us that info, we can't really go any further.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2021 11:03 AM

Get your language straight! The "HOA" didn't make & implement the new policy or rule, The Board did. (Forget about blaming the developer).

Actually, the Board, when making policy and rules, is the HOA!

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Monday morning quarterbacking? Why so hostile? I've noticed some of your responses seem to imply you think the rest of us know nothing. This website is supposed to be a place where we can all learn from each other and no one person, including you, know all the answers either.
So why are you here? I'm glad you don't have drama in your community and the communities you manage, but Maine isn't the end all in HOA land and you haven't seen each and every set of community documents either.

At least two people have asked Ra to quote the section of the documents - no, he doesn't have to provide it, nor does he have to accept every suggestion. I don't live in that community its, so I really don't care if he agrees or disagree with me. I do think there's probably a compromise somewhere that could fix this, at least for a while, but I also know this could be the start of a very nasty civil war in that community. If it escalates, they may become hard pressed to address more serious problems. If Ra can get out of his feelings for a minute, not to mention everyone else, maybe they can find a solution.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/05/2021 2:09 PM
Monday morning quarterbacking? Why so hostile? I've noticed some of your responses seem to imply you think the rest of us know nothing. This website is supposed to be a place where we can all learn from each other and no one person, including you, know all the answers either.
So why are you here? I'm glad you don't have drama in your community and the communities you manage, but Maine isn't the end all in HOA land and you haven't seen each and every set of community documents either.

At least two people have asked Ra to quote the section of the documents - no, he doesn't have to provide it, nor does he have to accept every suggestion. I don't live in that community its, so I really don't care if he agrees or disagree with me. I do think there's probably a compromise somewhere that could fix this, at least for a while, but I also know this could be the start of a very nasty civil war in that community. If it escalates, they may become hard pressed to address more serious problems. If Ra can get out of his feelings for a minute, not to mention everyone else, maybe they can find a solution.

I think there is a simple solution. The OP mentioned there are excess parking spaces even after the assigned parking. The solution is for the board to allow everyone to use overflow parking while keeping reserved parking for the owners with no garage. By doing this no one is being denied access to a common area.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Maybe, JohnC. But we need to know the definition of "reserved parking." Is it or isn't it common area?

To Max: you've followed this forum long enough (aka, Richard, CA, Mark, FL) to comprehend the difficulty with typical HOA language many posters have . To say that "...the HOA made this rule...." suggests there's no actual human beings who made the rule. In reality and generally it's the board of directors who made the rule.

"HOA is too vague. We even seen posters write things like, "I called my HOA and they said..." Who the heck is "the HOA?"

Another common misuse is "I'm going to the HOA meeting tonight." Usually that person means a board meeting. Only a meeting of the members (usually elections) should be called an "HOA meeting" since it truly is a meeting of the entire association.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I agree with RaR in that when one bought into his association they knew the parking situation meaning some units had no parking be it assigned or not. Now some want to change the "rules" to where they get assigned parking. You got what you paid for.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, sorry, JohnC; I meant JohnT.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2021 2:42 PM

To Max: you've followed this forum long enough (aka, Richard, CA, Mark, FL

Can we post your aka?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 07/05/2021 4:08 PM

Can we post your aka?

Watch it, sonny boy.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

No. Tim does from time to time tho' I don't know why. It's been years since I used it.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

As I said, the OP hasn't provided any language from their CCRs and they don't have to, but people are making assumptions based on what? I have handled many condos in my time, and only two here, Bill and Barbara might have that experience, BUT, how many condos do you personally know of that have no parking for their residents. I've handled over 170 in my time and not one were there no parking set aside for people in a condo. Who's not to say that the developer told the prospective buyers of the garage less units that parking will be made available once the project is finished. Do you think not having any parking is fair and reasonable?

For the record, I don't live in Maine, but Tim had me kicked off several times. Have you heard from George from Florida, that was Tim again. I don't live in a community any longer. I took JohnC advice and moved. Do we have drama in our communities, yep, but we handle them one at a time.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2021 2:42 PM

To Max: you've followed this forum long enough (aka, Richard, CA, Mark, FL) to comprehend the difficulty with typical HOA language many posters have . To say that "...the HOA made this rule...." suggests there's no actual human beings who made the rule. In reality and generally it's the board of directors who made the rule.

"HOA is too vague. We even seen posters write things like, "I called my HOA and they said..." Who the heck is "the HOA?"

Another common misuse is "I'm going to the HOA meeting tonight." Usually that person means a board meeting. Only a meeting of the members (usually elections) should be called an "HOA meeting" since it truly is a meeting of the entire association.

I have many people from various association either call or email inquiring when the next "HOA meeting" is. Sorry, I don't stop them and explain the difference between a Board meeting and a member meeting, when they can speak and so on. Give them the date, time and location and move on.

As far as rules, actually the first set of rules for a new association come from the CCRs, the developer and the law firm from which the governing documents were created. They will take all the do's and don't directly, word for word, out of the CCRs. Let's say that the CCRs don't give the authority to the Board to create parking rules, those have to be voted on my the members. Which might be where this association might be headed depending on the language in the CCRs.

Anything starting with "HOA is too vague", well, you lost me.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Are these two different HOA's in one Master HOA?

If not, it would seem odd that one group of people were given more accommodations common elements over another group. Allowing two reserved spots per unit is one thing, but not allowing those units with garages to use as visitor parking is another.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

My little attempt to help folks clarify what they are trying to write here is only that. I noticed that Ra didn't have a solid handle on some of the typical HOA words that are in her/his HOA documents. This often is the case here as you well know, Max.

Most common is not knowing the difference between assn. directors and officers. Next is thinking that "Bylaws" means the rules. Next is confusing the Bylaws with the CC&Rs (aka, declaration, convents, deed restrictions).

Using the correct language here helps us understand what posters are seeking and it helps them understand their own assn. and its documents.

My point about rules is that real people make them, not a vague abstraction called "the HOA" or a legal entity called "BayViews Owners Association."

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/05/2021 2:09 PM
I've noticed some of your responses seem to imply you think the rest of us know nothing. This website is supposed to be a place where we can all learn from each other and no one person, including you, know all the answers either.

IF, I don't know anything about the subject, I will not engage. I also won't be googling the subject in order to give my two cent worth. One thing I have never encountered is retention ponds, so you will never see my name listed trying to comment.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2021 5:07 PM
My little attempt to help folks clarify what they are trying to write here is only that. I noticed that Ra didn't have a solid handle on some of the typical HOA words that are in her/his HOA documents. This often is the case here as you well know, Max.

Most common is not knowing the difference between assn. directors and officers. Next is thinking that "Bylaws" means the rules. Next is confusing the Bylaws with the CC&Rs (aka, declaration, convents, deed restrictions).

Using the correct language here helps us understand what posters are seeking and it helps them understand their own assn. and its documents.

My point about rules is that real people make them, not a vague abstraction called "the HOA" or a legal entity called "BayViews Owners Association."

You would be surprised at how many directors have never read their governing docs, board presidents for twenty years not knowing what their association is responsible for, where to find state statues or Corporation Code. Many who have Bylaws from the 1980's trying to run elections based on that language.

My point about rules is that real people make them, not a vague abstraction called "the HOA" or a legal entity called "BayViews Owners Association." I always thought that was a given, I never assumed they just fell from the sky.

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I just got home from work and whoah this exploded. Thanks!

So some HOs and I are thinking of consulting a real estate/HOA lawyer to see if we have any legal standing to fight this.
There is just a lot of legal jargons that are complicated.

Section 1. Owner's Easements and Enjoyment. Every Owner shall have a right and nonexclusive easement of enjoyment in and to the Common Areas which shall be appurtenant to and shall pass with the title to every Lot, subject to the following provisions:

(a)...
(b)...
(c) The right of the Association to dedicate or transfer all or any part of the Common Areas to any public agency, authority or utility, for such purposes and subject to such conditions as may be agreed to by the Members. No such dedication or transfer shall be effective unless an instrument agreeing to such dedication or transfer signed by 2/3 of each class of Members has been recorded.

Section 2. Delegation of Use. Any Owner may delegate, in accordance with the Bylaws, his right of enjoyment to the Common Areas and facilities to the members of his family, his tenants, or contract purchasers who reside on his or her lot.

Definition of terms:
Association shall mean and refer to the ______ (redacted for privacy)____ Homeowners Association Inc, a Maryland not for profit, nonstock corporation, is successors and assigns.

Common Areas shall mean all real property (including the improvements thereon), if any, owned by the Association, or with respect to which it is a license, or grantee or beneficiary of an easement, for the common use and enjoyment of the Owners, including by way of example and not limitation, the Open Space, Recreation Areas, Floodplain, Forest Conservation Easement Areas and Private Roads with the Property, as shown on the Plats, but not including any part of the OutParcels, which are not part of the Property.

Member shall mean all persons or entities who hold membership in the Association as provided in this Declaration.

Owner shall mean and refer to the record owner, whether one or more persons or entities, of the fee simple title to any Lot which is a part of the Property, including contract sellers, but excluding those having such interest merely as security for the performance of an obligation.

Property or Properties shall mean and refer to that certain real property hereinabove described, and such additions thereto as may hereafter be brought within the jurisdiction of the Association and subjected to this Declaration as herein provided.

***********

What do you guys think?

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 07/05/2021 4:52 AM

I am not against to assigning parking spaces. I just need them to be fair in doing so and not base their decision on who has garages and who has none. They can assign one parking space to every HO and leave the rest to first-come-first-serve basis. I think is will be more fair to everyone.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I am sure the attorney you guys do decide to go with will definitely be asking for all the documents, because none of what you posted even has the word parking in it.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I have actively served on my complex high rise twin tower urban HOA's Board since the beginning of 2007, except for 2019. I can't even count how many directors I've served with on our Board of 7. You're right, most don't know jack about our governing docs or Civil Code. But what does that have to do with RA's question?

And why does it bother you that i'm offering a little bit of education here? HOAs have their own lingo and whether they want to or not, directors should learn it. If one or two lurkers here learn something abut this language, yay.

And, Max, to resort to writing in bold when I try to point out that real humans acting together make rules, not some ephemeral god-like "HOA" or "the Association" seems like an overreaction. When we always realize that humans act, we can perceive that I and my HOA support group CAN act together to make a difference. We can act to, for instance, change rules.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

RaR, the following is relevant, but I suspect there is more in your Declaration that is relevant.

Quote:

Posted By RaR on 07/05/2021 5:43 PM
Section 1. Owner's Easements and Enjoyment. Every Owner shall have a right and nonexclusive easement of enjoyment in and to the Common Areas which shall be appurtenant to and shall pass with the title to every Lot, subject to the following provisions:

Is there a section in the Declaration that gives the board the authority to create 'reasonable rules and regulations' concerning the use of common areas?

Are you sure there is not a section that talks about converting common area to Limited Common Area?

Is the word "parking" used anywhere in the Declaration?

If you do not have a searchable copy of the Declaration, I know it's often a chore to wade through it all.

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 07/05/2021 5:50 PM
I am sure the attorney you guys do decide to go with will definitely be asking for all the documents, because none of what you posted even has the word parking in it.

It is a lot of documents.

There is one section that mentioned something about how garages should be kept clear and free for parking of motor vehicles, and no garage may be converted to any other use than for vehicular parking. All motor vehicles shall be stored or parked only in designated parking areas on a Lot or the Common Areas.

.
.
.
.

Another sections states:
Ownership of Common Areas. The Common Areas designated on the Plats...are hereby dedicated to and for the use of the Owners of the Lots and shall be deeded to the Association in compliance with the provisions of Section... of ... County Code and shall be owned and maintained by the Association in accordance with these covenants. Except as may be set forth in any easement or agreement entered into by, or on behalf of the Association, and subject to the rights of the Owners as set forth in this Declaration, the Association shall be responsible for the exclusive management and control of the Common Areas and all improvements thereon (including, without limitation, furnishings and equipment related thereto, and common landscaped areas), and shall keep the Common Areas in good, clean, attractive and sanitary condition, order and repair, pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Declaration.

??

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Hypothetical question. You have a home with a two car garage, a driveway capable of two more cars and you want one of the other common area spaces. You have two cars, but you decide to put one in the garage and another on the common area, just for convenience. There are associations I manage that have a written rule in their CCRs that before you can park on the street, you have to have use all available parking spaces in your unit, two in the garage and two in the driveway.

I have another association next to a major university in Los Angeles. Condo complex with total of 120 units in two phrases built 20 years apart. First phrase was built and sold as low income housing. The second phrase was sold primarily to one ethnic group as investment property for housing med students. Each had two car garages, 20% of the garage were stacked, parking one behind the other, not very convenient. Total of 56 common area "guest parking" spaces. Over time, the first phrase, the garages started becoming storage areas and they parked outside. The new phrase was taunted as 4 students per unit with a two car garage. It was a free for all. I was spending too much time handling in fighting among the board and their residents.

The CCRs didn't have a provision for creating parking rules. What do you do?

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I tried looking for it and it did not mention anything about "converting common area to Limited Common Area."

However, under the Powers and Duties of the Board of Directors section, it mentioned something like The BOD shall have the power to adopt and publish rules and regulations governing the use of the Common Area and facilities, and the personal conduct of the Members and their guests thereon, and to establish penalties for the infraction thereof.

Like what I mentioned in the previous post, the only time parking was mention was when the document stated that garages should only be used for vehicles.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thanks, Ra. First, if you & likeminded owners get an attorney, it should be someone who specializes in HOAs or, at least contract law. A real estate attorney most likely isn't appropriate.

What is the name of this document, Ra? "Anyway, we see that: "Section 1. Owner's Easements and Enjoyment. Every Owner shall have a right and nonexclusive easement of enjoyment in and to the Common Areas which shall be appurtenant to and shall pass with the title to every Lot, subject to the following provisions:"

The provisions don't apply to your parking issue. Assume the ones you left blank done's apply either.

What document is this from? "Common area shall mean all real property... owned by the Association... for the common use and enjoyment of the Owners."

it looks to me like both of these sections indoor declaration gives ALL owners access to ALL common areas. The Board may not make any rule that conflicts with the declaration. The new "rule" grants exclusive use to certain owners, which contradicts your declaration so the rule can be overturned, it seems to me. So....even though the Board has the power to make rules about the common area, these rules may NOT oppose your main governing document, your declaration.

Right, it's very difficult to read all of these documents when new to HOA language. But if you haven't accidentally neglected something, which IS possible, those of you who believe the new rule is wrong are correct. Moreover, it does seem unjust however "kind" the Board thought it was being.

RaR (Maryland)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I found this in the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, Restrictions and Easements:

COMMON AREA PROPERTY RIGHTS
Section 1. Owners' Easements and Enjoyment. Every Owner shall have a right and nonexclusive easement of enjoyment in and to the Common Area which shall be appurtenant to and shall pass with the title to every Lot, subject to the following provisions:
(a) The right of the Association to charge reasonable admission and other fees for the use of recreational facility situated upon the Common Area;
(b) The right of the Association to suspend the voting rights and rights to use the recreational facilities by an Owner for any period during which any assessment against his Lot remains unpaid; and for a period not to exceed sixty (60) days for any infraction of its published rules and regulations;
(c) The right of the Association to dedicate or transfer all or any part of the Common Areas to any public agency, authority or utility, for such purposes and subject to such conditions as may be agreed to by the Members. No such dedication or transfer shall be effective unless an instrument agreeing to such dedication or transfer signed by two-thirds (2/3) of each class of Members has been recorded.

Section 2: Delegation of Use. Any Owner may delegate, in accordance with the Bylaws, his right of enjoyment to the Common Areas and facilities to the members of his family, his tenants, or contract purchasers who reside on his or her Lot.
Section 3: Stuctures.....
Section 4: The Association shall have the right to prescribe reasonable rules and regulations governing the use of the Common Areas, which rules and regulations shall be applied equally to all Owners.

What do you guys think about SECTION 4?

I read the documents and I don't think the builder specified those areas as parking areas. I think they just identified it on the blueprint or map as "open space." There is nowhere in the documents mentioning parking area/overflow parking. The only time parking was mentioned was about the garage's sole purpose should be for vehicles.

I may have already posted this section before in a previous post? Sorry my brain is tired from working a 14 hour shift plus the stress of this current issue.

Thank you all for taking your time to reply to this post.

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