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ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
I should point out that our By-Laws don't speak specifically to how and when motions should be made beyond the order of meetings, but they do say that when the By-Laws don't speak to an item that RRO 10th addition will take precedence.

When we refer to Robert's Rules of order 10th addition, you will note that there is a procedure that should be followed (you can review that procedure here: http://www.robertsrules.org/rror-01.htm#4 ). This procedure cannot be carried out via e-mail or via personal phone call. Something I have already pointed out to my fellow Board members but something they continue to do. One Board member will call (or email) two others and agree among themselves and then carry out an action, informing the minority what they are doing and claiming they have a majority vote.

Though I cannot find anything specific in RRO, I think as a small organization we need to expand on RRO to suit our particular needs.

In general the best procedure for making binding motions is at a duly called meeting. Having said that there are some common sense exceptions I would like to explain.

If a member asks to take action if he can get unanimous consent from ALL members of the Board via email (calls are insufficient as they leave nothing in writing) then the action can be taken**. These types of motions should be limited to routine business such as maintenance items, paying bills, reimbursements for small items (though there is no specific number my suggestion would be $50 or less, the $50 number is something I will have to present as a motion) or items whose failure to act will have serious financial implications on the HOA, these actions can be called "emergency" actions and should take place when meetings aren't possible or when action is time sensitive. There are other "simple" actions that the Board will have to use some judgment on. Members will have the opportunity to reply to other members via email and make a case for waiting on a motion.

Another exception is in an instance where a motion is brought before the Board at a duly called meeting. The motion is debated as normal, but is tabled do to lack of information. If the information is simple, say the cost of fixing a pump or the date that something should take place, and the original motion should put forth an approximate cost, or date and the information obtained after the meeting is found to fall within reason of the original number (I prefer something like $100 or LESS), then the Board could take a vote via email, but again must have all members reply before any action can be taken. Of course each member may be given a certain number of days (the number of days should be stated at the time the original tabled motion is put forth at a duly called meeting) to respond or his lack of voting could be counted simply toward a quorum. A “no” vote against a motion in this case does not necessarily mean that the motion must come back before the Board at a public meeting. If the no votes are the minority and the minority does not protest (as that the motion come back before the Board at a Duly called meeting), that is to say they have nothing new to add to a debate on the topic, then the majority can carry out action based on its majority vote.

If UNANIMOUS CONSENT cannot be obtained the item MUST be put before a formal Board meeting. This means that simple majorities do not decide in the case of motions put forth outside of a duly called meeting. In other words, on a 5 member Board a member can not call 2 other members and motion that something be done and based on those two members agreement, carry out an act.

**Members should avoid making controversial motions or motions that have a certain level of finality to them (things that cannot be undone, cutting down a tree for instance) outside the scope of formal meetings whenever possible.

At the next duly called meeting the Board should be obligated to bring items that were passed outside of the scope of duly called meetings, to be read in detail and explained that the motions were passed in between meetings. The floor should be opened to debate, and each Board member should have the opportunity to reconsider and offer a motion to rescind the previous motion or make a new motion on the subject (assuming it does not contradict the previous motion). In most cases the community would also be able to make comments on these motions.

The point an purpose of this procedure is to balance the need to get things done against the need to maintain accountability and protect the voice of the Board minority and the homeowners.

This policy, though not perfect, seems like the best compromise between accountability and the ability to get things done. Some of you may think that the level of red tape is too high, but what I often tell my homeowners when they get upset that the Board acts to slowly is that accountability often comes at the cost of efficiency. The trick is to keep them in balance.

Thoughts?

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Chris, learn to DELEGATE authority. Just as the association delegates certain authority to the Board, the Board may delegate authority to a managing agent or a Board member.
ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
Roger, you said:

"Chris, learn to DELEGATE authority. Just as the association delegates certain authority to the Board, the Board may delegate authority to a managing agent or a Board member."

Not sure how that addresses my question?

We don't have a managing agent and the residents here are fiercely against it fearing there $11 a month dues will go up. Personally I think we need a PMC but I'm in the minority.

Delegate? What do you mean delegate?

Authority here is being corralled by the President, who hides behind words like "its for the kids" and "were a community not a business" and "I'm trying to save homeowners money!".

The problem that I'm not sure you understand is that motions are being passed with little to no accountability to the minority of the Board (sometimes I might *be* the "minority") or to the homeowners. The idea is to create a policy that outlines how and when motions take place.

Thanks
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Chris, Let me explain by an example. The Board wants to do something for the kids like an Easter Egg hunt. A member of the Board could make a motion to allocate up to $XXX for this event and authorize 'Mary Smith' to be in charge organize, and run the event. When approved by the Board this would eliminate the President from "its for the kids" and chosing to do it without Board approval. When motions are passed, after those opposed have their opportunity to speak against the motion, there is no more discussion with the minority nor the homeowners. All Board members should support every motion passed.

It is a good idea to establish policies and procedures. This can be done for how to conduct a meeting. I don't understand why "how to make a motion or when they take place" is not known. If this needs clarification for your Board make a motion which includes the policies and procedures you think are needed.
ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
Roger,

Thanks,

The truth is I know this stuff, the rest of the Board does not. I know it sounds crazy, but these guys plot and scheme in each others living rooms. Our monthly public meetings are scream fests. I have been trying to bring some proceedure to the whole thing, but I am outnumbered on the Board.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Chris,
Have you stopped the meeting with a "Point of Order Announcement? Then the floor is open to discuss your "Point of Order". which is order must be maintained by the president during the meeting or no business can be conducted legally. I supposed that will be ignored also. But I have seen it work.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
ChrisB4

The correct name for the version or Robert's typically referenced in bylaws is Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR). If your owners association uses RONR, the bylaws should refer to the latest edition of RONR rather than a specific edition. Some organizations use Parliamentary Law by Sturgis which is shorter and some people consider easier to read.

I presume that your post concerns motions at board meetings, not at members' meetings. They are somewhat different.

RONR does include a section on practices for small boards. It addresses some of your concerns. It should be in the index.

The reason you don't find anything about actions without a meeting is that RONR is for deliberative assemblies. The board can only take action by its approved motions and resolutions, which can only occur at a duly-called meeting. But there may be an exception in your state for action without a meeting.

Consult your state law for your owners association (I presume a nonprofit corporation) with regard to action without a meeting. In Michigan, a board may take action without a meeting only by unanimous consent. The specific language is:
450.2525 Taking action without meeting; consent. Sec. 525. Unless otherwise provided by the articles of incorporation or bylaws, action required or permitted to be taken pursuant to authorization voted at a meeting of the board or a committee thereof may be taken without a meeting if, before or after the action, all members of the board or of the committee consent thereto in writing. The written consents shall be filed with the minutes of the proceedings of the board or committee. The consent has the same effect as a vote of the board or committee for all purposes. History: 1982, Act 162, Eff. Jan. 1, 1983.

Overall, boards should function as deliberative bodies. No proxies are allow. Board members meet with preparation to consider agenda topics that have been properly noticed. And then vote.


ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
Don,

Thanks for the reply.

The point here is I must spell out for my Board when they can and cannot make motions. Here is an example from yesterday:

"I motion to remove the Halloween information from the community message board and replace it with the call of meeting that will occur on November 3."

We have a sign at our only entrance/exit that we use to keep members informed. The Board passed a motion that nothing would go on the sign unless it was presented as a motion to the Board and passed by the majority.

While changing the contents of the sign is no big deal, the motion was made via email. Now in this case it seems easy enough for the maker of the motion above to ask for unanimous consent and change the content of our sign. If not they have to wait until our next meeting, which as you can see is Nov 3rd, at which point the content he suggests would be moot.

However, the same sign was used to announce a private party a week ago, one held by the Presidents wife. The party was for the communities kids, but it was not a community sponsored event (she didn't want the Board involved). The issue is now if the sign is being used for private events shouldn't all residents get to use it?

My argument is that with about a 40-60 word maximum how are you going to decide who's announcements go on the sign? The sign cost the community about $1200 and a lot of people are upset because they feel the sign was going to be used to announce Board information to the community, not parties, birthdays, anniversaries and graduations ect....

The justification by 4 of the other Board members was that the community paid for it they should be able to use it.

My point is, is thats fine, but the previous Board voted to limit the sign to Board business only.

Do I care what goes on the sign? Not really, what I make issue about is the fact that in 3 hours there was an email sent around to ask the Board to vote to announce a party put together by the community Presidents wife. The Member-at-Large and the Treasure, via email said they were fine with it, I brought up the point of the vote of the previous Board (Board business only) and the President went and made the change to announce the party even before the Secretary had given his opinion.

Can you see what I'm dealing with?

As a Board we should have reversed the previous Boards decision at a duly called meeting first. Then we should have taken a vote on the content. The didn't want to wait so they did it the way I outlined.

I'm not nearly as upset about WHAT is being done as HOW it's being done.

To demand a meeting to discuss the content above would be perceived as a waste of Board time. My solution was to create an outline and present it to the Board in hopes that there are some guidelines they can follow.

I think there are some issues that can be asked via email. Unanimous consent to me means the topic at hand is not up for debate, but I'm always concerned about making decisions away from the public eye. This is why I would like there to be some limit to what can be done and that everything comes back to the next public meeting.

My question is, were the guidelines I created feasible? Is there a better way to go with this? Is the situation hopeless based on the fact that my fellow Board members know absolutely nothing about parliamentary rule? Am I the one with the issue?
ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
Robert,

Sorry I missed your question.

I have tried the "point of order", the President has no idea what that even means. Most of the time people just speak up, speaking out of turn, talking about issues other than motions that are currently on the floor. I have offered to chair the meeting as I am much more familiar with the roll of Chairperson than he is, but his statement to me when I offered to chair was "You will never chair a meeting as long as I am President of this association".

Before things got out of hand between us, I did chair one meeting and several residents came to me and complemented me and noted that it was the most pleasant meeting they had ever been too. This is because when residents had issues, instead of finding fault in them or quoting rules and regulations, I listened to them and then asked them questions like, "what do you think we should do?" and "are you willing to help?".

The point is I made our residents part of the discussion.

I just don't know what to do at this point. The vast majority of are residents have no idea what is going on so it's difficult to rally any support.

This Board is one decision away from being sued. I constantly document my opinion on every issue that comes up should that happen, but I fighting an uphill battle.

Some of you might be thinking, why not quit? I'm the kind of person that feels if your going to complain, get involved. I also have the majority of the involved residents asking me to "hang in there".
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
ChrisB,
This is exactly one of the reasons people don't go to meetings.
We had exactly the same problem and now the manager can determine what goes on Board. I don't like that decision either. I believe the correct way to handle this is for one Board Member take all responsibility. That still makes it a representative of the members. Another way is for the Board to appoint a member an Officer of the Board and put the responsibility there. Any of it should be done outside a regular meeting. If a question comes up at a meeting refer the issue to the one in charge. I just can't see where the Board should be involved. That's why we have a board, to insure these kind of issues are handled fairly, and the Board is not endowed with selective powers of reasoning, they are just Assosiation members trying to be fair(or should be). All the remaining members are likely to have just as much reasoning power. Select one that will do it, explain the boards desires, and give them the key. IMHO
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
ChrisB,
Believe me, I know exactly where you are coming from. I like you, tend to grab hold and hold on. I am not swayed a wjole lot by critisim, but easily swayed by logic, even if it is logic I tend to not agree with.
The end of your post mentioned "Hang in There." Something we pass over from using the term to death. But I am still doing that and things have become easier, I don't think I have changed much except to not fight every fight to the death. Your obvious intelligence and your committment will prevail, when the time is ripe. I doubt if you and the President will end up at Starbucks having a lattee, but who cares? Between the lines I sense you are making a little progress, especially with other owners and you have now positioned yourself to be the contact point for a lot of personal agendas by the homeowners. They talk, and they say things like, "Yes, I understand what you mean, but don't go to the Board give ChrisB a ring, he is the one one you can talk to." I'mm not kidding, word gets around and soon you will have five people, you can depend on, and then ten. And that is about all you need to force changes. A ten person group at a board meeting gets some attention from any president.
ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175
Posted:
Robert,

Thank you for the reply but I have to admit I'm a little confused with your reply. If I'm reading you correctly, your solution is to put all the responsibility in the hands of 1 member?

WE kinda already have that. The President of our HOA thinks he is responsible for everything and he doesn't have to follow the rules. He just uses phrases like "I did that to save money" or "The kids are more important [than the rules]" or "no one was doing anything about that so I did it and at least I got something done". All of these phrases are used to justify a lack of proceedure or following the rules.

If your saying what I think your saying, I have to say I respectfully disagree.

The first thing I think should be done is the titles of members be changed. The title President seems to go straight to everyone's head. The nations president, IMO, isn't exactly a great roll model, and the fact is that a Board is closer to the legislative branch then it is to the Executive. I would change the names to Chairperson, Vice Chair, Secretary, and Member-at-Large. Each is an equal Board member with their own responsibilities.

Each member owes every other member the respect to debate an issue, give their opinion and ask for a vote. It's that simple. The debates should be held in person and the pubic should be able to sit in on scheduled meetings in an attempt to hold each member accountable.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
ChrisB,
I have no problem with your motivation or your method of seeking change or the changes you want to make.
I am just saying from my experience I have learned to chew rather than swallowing the whole project. In a real sense there are lots to be said for reading the documents closely. I would imagine that most document have a clause or reference to Officers of the Board. The Board can elect or select committees and they also can select individual to be Officers of the Board to represent the Board, report to the Board and be responsive to the Boards wishes. This officer should be able to take a project, study it, write a short report and recommended changes and make the changes. Then everything is after the fact, the problem becomes the problem of the representative of the people and he/she handles complaints.

The board refers all questions to the Officer. The Board then has the responsibility to support and advice the Officer. It should never become a matter for discussion at a Board Meeting. Done properly it works, don't know if you all can swing something like that or not. But that one problem is addressed.

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
ChrisB4

Your board appears to be out of control. Action without a meeting should be used only when it is difficult for the board to meet with a duly-noticed meeting.

With regard to board meetings, there should be a standing policy as to how members are to be duly noticed for each meeting. The need for a notice to members should be defined in the bylaws if your state's law doesn't so provide.

The use of a sign owned by the owners association to announce a private party is clearly out of line unless the same privilege is extended to all owners association members.

As a board member, you have the opportunity, responsibility and obligation to introduce motions that you believe will address the issues involved. For each of your concerns, there is an appropriate motion to establish a policy, revise a policy, proposal an amendment to the bylaws, or whatever. Your motions require action — meaning votes — from the other board members.

I wouldn't be surprised if a separate website is needed to disclosed the actions of the board. It has happened with other owners associations and it will happen again. Your association needs more transparency.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Don,
It regard to ChriB4 posts. I'm sure he knows what to do , the problem is to get around all the obsticals and make sense on the other side.

Your mention of a separater web site might be just the ticket. I know we set one up and it did indeed draw the attention of the Board and owners. The bigest problem is getting all the addresses, but the board helped us out when they sent e-mails to the members damning the web site and it's comments page, and also we used a part of our condo name. We have since turned web site over to Board and still service the page and make postings. I was against taking out comments board but got outvoted and now the site serves as an excellent vehicle to get the word out. Oh' I was saying the board sent out e-mails that if you looked at them closely they didn't hide all the copy to lists, so along with what we already had gathered we had nearly all e-mail addresses. It is a great addition. Recently we have been having some huge tides and our seawall has got tons of water coming over it. I have taken pictures and they will be sent to all owners in the hopes that a special assessment will justfied just on seeing pictures, at least I hope so.

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