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MichaelB1 (Maryland)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I have been recently auditing our HOA's expenditures and have found that of our snow removal costs, road salt consumes 75% of the total. We are in MD and snow fall and ice conditions are hard to predict. I have a couple of questions:

1.) Does anyone have any ideas how to reduce road salt expenditures?

2.) Our snow removal contractor charges $35/50lb bag, but I have seen online prices as low as $5/50lb bag. Do their prices seem unreasonably high?

3.) How can we verify that the contractor is actually using the number of bags he invoices us?

4.) I have read that road salt is not environmentally friendly. Can we impose how much road salt/ sq ft our contractor can apply? If so what should be the guidance?

Thanks!

Mike
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
MichaelB1: You want to ensure that the contractor is using a calcium cloride product which does not impair your road surface as regular road salt does. You could investigate with your local municipality office as to what product they use and where they purchase it.

Further, suggestions to reduce costs--
- initiate a 2" or 3" snow rule, in that, no snow removal will be completed unless the snow is more than 2-3", whatever you decide.
- consider how the sun moves and that some of the ice and light snow will melt
- encourage (request strongly) residents to maintain a bag of calcium chloride in their garage for applying to their driveways
- network with other communities in your area to learn how their snow contracts read

Good Luck!
MichaelB1 (Maryland)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thanks for your recommendations Paul,

I have been reading up on alternative de-icing materials like CaCl etc. I have also been researching on the web ways to reduce the amount of salt and de-icing materials deposited. Unofortunately, all that I have been able to find is related to departments of transportation (DOT) of states and municipalities and the application of these materials on large roads.

We are a small association of 200 homes and our common area roads are short and narrow. Our contractor uses a pickup truck salt spreader. These types of spreaders typically do not have the advanced controls that the large DOT trucks use and are not driving at constant speeds over miles upon miles of road.

I am looking for guidance on how to talk to our snow contractor to find a way to reduce the amount of de-icing material that is used and hence our expenditures. Of course we want our roads to be free of ice but we don't want to be paying for unnecessary amounts of de-icing material. I suspect since our contractor has such a large markup on salt, he currently has no incentive to work hard to figure out how to apply just the right amount of salt and no more.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Mike
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mike,
We don't have a snow problem but I did live in Maryland for a lot of years.
Just a couple notes:

Is the job put out on bids?
Do you have it broken down into labor, salt, etc.
I know this from living in Maryland, winters are unpredictable and that should show up in you snow removal contract. Go back and look at past bills and see if the don't have huge differences year to year, they should.
Check this guys license, see if he is certifed to lay down salt on roads and his equipmet is proper.
Negioiate!!!!!!!!
The other suggestions by Paul above sound good to me.

See if you don't have wiggle room in the contract. He may accept a standard yearly fee that might work out better for you when you look at back bills. You are and should be concerned that only enough salt is laid down to do the job, no more.

MichaelB1 (Maryland)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Hi Robert,

Our Landscaping company and snow removal company are one in the same and we just got three new bids but snow removal was not part of two of them. Our current contract does detail out plowing, shoveling, salt spreading. I will definitely ask for additional snow contracts.

I have looked at the total snow removal bills for the past 7 years and they do vary dramatically. This past year was the first time I looked at the individual charges and discovered it was the salt not the plowing that hurts us.

I'm a numbers guy and would like to have a strong negotiating position. So I would first like to quantitatively determine how much salt we really need and then compare that to what he has laid down in the past. So when he says that "his x-years of snow plowing/salt laying experience tells him the salt he lays down is what is needed", I have some reference frame to check this against.

I'm hoping my research on what Depts of Transportation (DOT) lay down will scale to our roads. State and municipal DOTS have a vested interest in laying down just the right amount of salt.

I suspect many private snow removal contractors bill by the amount of salt applied. I just have not yet figured out how to determine what amount to be applied is reasonable.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
MichaelB1: It is wise of you to ask for additional snow contracts, and in doing so, have them bid on the exact same services you are now receiving. In this way, you will have an 'apples to apples' comparison and can better understand what you are getting (or not getting) for your money.

Its interesting that the cost of salt seems to be hurting you more than the snow removal. That may be cause for concern. All the more reason to check elsewhere on the salt product, as well as the amount they will put down, as well as the ice-situation/s and when YOU want them to apply salt. Is it possible the contractor is using an inferior or incorrect salt product and is using more of it to accomplish the task?

The entire community snow removal/salt scenario is very strange to me. Don't know why community residents seem to believe that 'their' portion of the street should be cleaned immediately upon their departure for work, or their appt. or whatever. It's a 'me me' world we live in!!!

One other suggestion, be diligent to interpret what your docs state re
association responsibility for landscaping and snow maintenance. Residents seem to have different interpretations on the level of maintenance which needs to be done (actually, what they in their mind thought would be done for them...) and what the terms 'adequate' and 'will maintain' mean. Again, its trying to find a solution which is reasonable and still within the association restrictions, while spending the funds wisely. It's a tall order indeed!
AlS5 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I know this is an old post, but I think it is still relevant today. I'm a fairly new board member and I'm also finding that our snow vendor charges $25/50lb bag even though Lowes or other places sell them for $6 a 50lb bag. Recently they started charging bulk rates and started charging $300 per ton of rock salt. They routinely charges us 2 to 3 tons of rock salt used even though we only have about 2 miles roadway in our community. I did some calling around to other vendors and they all seem to evade answering direct pricing questions. I think the snow vendors all know HOAs are good source of business for them and they don't want to change that. Thoughts?
AlS5 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I know this is an old post, but I think it is still relevant today. I'm a fairly new board member and I'm also finding that our snow vendor charges $25/50lb bag even though Lowes or other places sell them for $6 a 50lb bag. Recently they started charging bulk rates and started charging $300 per ton of rock salt. They routinely charges us 2 to 3 tons of rock salt used even though we only have about 2 miles roadway in our community. I did some calling around to other vendors and they all seem to evade answering direct pricing questions. I think the snow vendors all know HOAs are good source of business for them and they don't want to change that. Thoughts?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
AIS,

Unless your going to purchase, store and spread the salt yourself, all you can do is bid the contract every year. To give us a better idea if the bid is good or bad we take all the bids and use those rates on actual bills received during our worst snow storm.

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