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MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
We have three members on our HOA board. We have one board member who has constant conflicts with his neighbors. We are worried he will expose the board as a whole to legal action. Our by-laws don't allow the other members of the board to kick him off the board. He offered his resignation, but when we offered to accept his resignation, he refused to resign. What are our options? I understand the whole membership has to vote him off. I am assuming the members need to file a petition for recall. If so, what percent of the members is needed to sign the recall petition? Can the board just call for a recall election?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeB16 on 04/18/2021 5:41 PM
We have three members on our HOA board. We have one board member who has constant conflicts with his neighbors. We are worried he will expose the board as a whole to legal action. Our by-laws don't allow the other members of the board to kick him off the board. He offered his resignation, but when we offered to accept his resignation, he refused to resign. What are our options? I understand the whole membership has to vote him off. I am assuming the members need to file a petition for recall. If so, what percent of the members is needed to sign the recall petition? Can the board just call for a recall election?
MikeB16, if you can answer the following, this will help me and others help you.

-- Check the Bylaws for a section that talks about "recalls." Please post the details here. Redact information that might identify exactly which HOA this is. This site does not allow the actual names of HOAs/condos or people to be use, for liability reasons.

-- Is this a condominium subject to Montana's condo statute?

-- Is this HOA/condo a nonprofit corporation as well? (Usually HOAs and condos are also nonprofit corporations.)

-- Was this director elected by the membership? If so, when is his term up?

-- Was this director appointed by you and the other director because a vacancy arose? If so, then see https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0220/0350-0020-0040-0220.html

-- If this director was elected, and your bylaws say nothing about recall or removing a director, then see https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0210/0350-0020-0040-0210.html

-- You might explain to him that you intend to do what Montana Code 35-2-421 says and see if he is willing to save you all the trouble and resign.

-- Notice that this section of the Montana nonprofit corporation act states how resignation is achieved :https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0200/0350-0020-0040-0200.html
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
MikeB16, if you can answer the following, this will help me and others help you.

-- Check the Bylaws for a section that talks about "recalls." Please post the details here. Redact information that might identify exactly which HOA this is. This site does not allow the actual names of HOAs/condos or people to be use, for liability reasons.

>>>Any elected director may be removed from office by the majority vote of the unit owners.

-- Is this a condominium subject to Montana's condo statute?

>>>>I think so.

-- Is this HOA/condo a nonprofit corporation as well? (Usually HOAs and condos are also nonprofit corporations.)

>>>>Yes

-- Was this director elected by the membership? If so, when is his term up?

>>>>>Yes. Not sure. We have had a problem even getting a quorum at annual meetings.

-- Was this director appointed by you and the other director because a vacancy arose? If so, then see https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0220/0350-0020-0040-0220.html

>>>>>No

-- If this director was elected, and your bylaws say nothing about recall or removing a director, then see https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0210/0350-0020-0040-0210.html

-- You might explain to him that you intend to do what Montana Code 35-2-421 says and see if he is willing to save you all the trouble and resign.

>>>>>>>This statute says, " If cumulative voting is authorized, a director may not be removed:" Our bylaws authorize cumulative voting.

-- Notice that this section of the Montana nonprofit corporation act states how resignation is achieved :https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0350/chapter_0020/part_0040/section_0200/0350-0020-0040-0200.html
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Depending on Montana law, if he stated his intention to resign in an email, then he probably has resigned. Ohio considers an email to be "in writing" and delivered to the appropriate board member (often the secretary). This is one reason why directors need to avoid batting off angry emails in the heat of the moment.

Assuming you're not that lucky, or if Montana law doesn't allow email resignations, you could point out that he may be better served by a quiet resignation instead of a public process that may reveal things to the community that he'd rather keep quiet. A recall election is essentially being terminated for cause. But if he's regularly getting into spats with neighbors, he may lack the self awareness and control to go for this.

If he only has a year or so left in this term, it may be less work to just replace him through the regular election process. But you have to weigh that against any potential damage he may do during that time.
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
Here is his exact quote. Did he legally offer his resignation? "If you think it would be best that I step off the board due to the issues that's going on with my neighbors to protect the board and protect the HOA I'm totally fine with that please let me know what your thoughts are?"
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeB16 on 04/19/2021 5:11 AM
Here is his exact quote. Did he legally offer his resignation? "If you think it would be best that I step off the board due to the issues that's going on with my neighbors to protect the board and protect the HOA I'm totally fine with that please let me know what your thoughts are?"

No, unfortunately I don't think that's a resignation - he just said he would be fine with it. (My impression is that he's playing games, but I don't know the guy.)

So maybe inform him what a recall election will look like, and with luck he'll see that it's in his best interest to quietly resign. Of course there is always the risk that he enjoys turmoil and confrontations, so a recall election would suit him just fine. And you have to assess the chances for success - if most owners have no problem with the guy, it may be hard to convince them that he needs to go.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
He hasn't resisted and wants you thought. You & the other director could as gently as possible ask for his resignation due to (what he wrote). In CA, and maybe in a lot of states resignations do not have to be "accepted" by the Board. You'd simply note it in the minutes of the next meeting.

If he resigns, he just needs to write tot he board that he's resigning effective date, and date and sign his note.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- I agree what the guy wrote is not a resignation. I also think any twisting of the guy's arm and saying it is a resignation is not cool. (Not that arm-twisting is going on.)

-- To clarify regarding the cumulative voting per the Bylaws, the Montana Nonprofit Corp section 35-2-421 says
=== Start excerpt from Montana Code 35-2-421 ===
(4) If cumulative voting is authorized, a director may not be removed:

(a) if the number of votes sufficient to elect the director under cumulative voting is voted against the director's removal; or

(b) if the director was elected by a class, chapter, unit, or grouping of members and the number of votes of that class, chapter, unit, or grouping of members sufficient to elect the director under cumulative voting is voted against the director's removal.
== End Excerpt ===

-- I do not see anything in the rather short and sweet Montana Condo Act that speaks about recalling directors. Maybe someone here can double check me.

-- Send mailings and collect proxies to get the recall done. If you can't get a quorum for the recall, oh well.
TV (Washington)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Hi

I have same consideration for a HOA president who shows signs of a power grab and executing what he wants by force.

he does little, and when called on about it, he makes accusations, demands resignation of board members.

this is a real concern of power by edict
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TV on 04/19/2021 10:18 AM
Hi

I have same consideration for a HOA president who shows signs of a power grab and executing what he wants by force.

he does little, and when called on about it, he makes accusations, demands resignation of board members.

this is a real concern of power by edict

TV
If the BOD is running scared then get them to call for a BOD Election among themselves, which they can do at any time, and at least remove the bully for being President. He will still be on the BOD but at least not President.
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
Yeah, when we requested his resignation, he adamantly refuses. I have been reading up on the statutes. They are complicated on recall elections. I'm not sure we can even do one. We would need to consult a lawyer before even running a recall election. One of the people he is fighting with claims he has mental problems (obsessive compulsive/schizophrenic). I can't say because I am not a professional, but it wouldn't surprise me. He is smart and manipulative and controlling. I'm not even sure how the vote would go. He knows more of the members than we do, and he has done a lot of good for the HOA. The conflicts are not just his fault, but he just can't walk away from the conflicts. His neighbors know this, and continually bait him. Getting him off the board won't eliminate the problems, but it should help alleviate our liability.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mike

Typically of the BOD Member was elected by the owners, only the owners can remove him. Even if a Special Meeting is called with the purpose of recalling Him with Her, it would require a majority of all owners voting to recall Him and replace with Her. Generally a near impossible task.
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/19/2021 10:36 AM
Mike

Typically of the BOD Member was elected by the owners, only the owners can remove him. Even if a Special Meeting is called with the purpose of recalling Him with Her, it would require a majority of all owners voting to recall Him and replace with Her. Generally a near impossible task.

I have to agree with you. Personally, I like the guy. I'm not sure I would push for a recall election, but would do it if requested. I am more afraid of liability issues than anything. Our management company is getting tired of him, too. As a board, we can censure him, but I'm not sure that is better than already asking for his resignation.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeB16 on 04/19/2021 10:46 AM
Personally, I like the guy. I'm not sure I would push for a recall election, but would do it if requested. I am more afraid of liability issues than anything. Our management company is getting tired of him, too. As a board, we can censure him, but I'm not sure that is better than already asking for his resignation.
Censuring comes up a lot here. It has no legal bite whatsoever. AFAIC it's the stuff of fifth graders.

What liability issues?
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/19/2021 11:08 AM
Posted By MikeB16 on 04/19/2021 10:46 AM
Personally, I like the guy. I'm not sure I would push for a recall election, but would do it if requested. I am more afraid of liability issues than anything. Our management company is getting tired of him, too. As a board, we can censure him, but I'm not sure that is better than already asking for his resignation.
Censuring comes up a lot here. It has no legal bite whatsoever. AFAIC it's the stuff of fifth graders.

What liability issues?

One of the persons call themselves a person of color who has a problem with our board member. Apparently the previous tenant who had a problem with him was also a person of color. I myself suspect he may be somewhat prejudiced.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Regarding liability issues:
Quote:
Posted By MikeB16 on 04/19/2021 11:24 AM
One of the persons call themselves a person of color who has a problem with our board member. Apparently the previous tenant who had a problem with him was also a person of color. I myself suspect he may be somewhat prejudiced.
Two cents: Make sure whoever has a problem knows they have the right to file a complaint, and make sure they understand that the complaint cites exactly what rule or covenant they think this director is violating and provides evidence of same.

I'd be inclined to urge the President to keep this director (and all) on a short leash at meetings. An agenda and requiring all to stick to agenda topics is key. Open forum before and/or after is recommended here at hoatalk, with a time limit of maybe two minutes per person.

Outvote this director as needed. Keep working on ways to achieve quorum, including considering a contractor who provides online voting services. The latter are excellent, in my experience.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
First, because of the cumulative voting in your Bylaws, all directors would need to be recalled, not just the one.

Second, and more importantly, until your group can reach quorum at the annual meeting, the person stays under a successor is elected.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mike

While I am not saying you do not have cumulative voting be sure you do. Some get confused. An example:

Cumulative voting: 5 people running for 3 spots on the BOD. This means an owner gets 3 votes and they can cast all 3 of their votes for the same candidate or two for one candidate and one for another candidate.

Popular voting (more common) is one vote only per candidate.

Cumulative voting came about as a civil rights thing so minority candidates had a better chance of getting elected.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Others here are more knowledgeable than I about race issues. But it sounds to me like the problem between your director and a resident of color is a person to person conflict, and doesn't involve the Board. UNLESS the director threatens the resident with this or that board discipline.

I do think the Board can vote to curtail or halt this director's interactions with your PM. This matters a lot if you want to keep your manager. We saw it here not long ago and the director (in TX) finally did resign.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/19/2021 2:05 PM
Cumulative voting came about as a civil rights thing so minority candidates had a better chance of getting elected.

Actually cumulative voting for HOA's is there for developers to stay in control while they build out the complex.

Civil Rights...seriously?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 04/19/2021 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/19/2021 2:05 PM
Cumulative voting came about as a civil rights thing so minority candidates had a better chance of getting elected.


Actually cumulative voting for HOA's is there for developers to stay in control while they build out the complex.

Civil Rights...seriously?

Let me rephrase. Cumulative was a tool used after the Civil Rights Act of 1965 to get minorities elected. Sorry I implied it was "originally" for such. One of the first public usages was in the IL House Of Representative elections in 1870

Yes it is used in corporations but in my experience it is "rare" to see in owner association usage though associations are corporations. Typically in owner associations the developer/declarant stayed in power per weighted voting such as 50 to 1 votes for the developer.

Cumulative voting was in our original Bylaws and Proxies were not allowed. We had our Declarant remove both prior to transition to we owners some 6 years ago. Nice to have an amicable turnover.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
What I am pondering is how cumulative voting is applied in a recall election. From the statute:

4) If cumulative voting is authorized, a director may not be removed:
(a) if the number of votes sufficient to elect the director under cumulative voting is voted against the director's removal; or

(b) if the director was elected by a class, chapter, unit, or grouping of members and the number of votes of that class, chapter, unit, or grouping of members sufficient to elect the director under cumulative voting is voted against the director's removal.

Bring on the HOA attorney.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Here is an explanation:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Director-Removal-Recall

Remember the follow the bouncing ball.
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 04/19/2021 5:54 PM
Here is an explanation:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Director-Removal-Recall

Remember the follow the bouncing ball.

About as clear as mud.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Director-Removal-Recall is one entertaining site.

The OP's Board should skip the recall attempt; go to electronic voting in the next election, including early voting; recruit candidates; and get out the vote.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/19/2021 6:18 PM
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Director-Removal-Recall is one entertaining site.

The OP's Board should skip the recall attempt; go to electronic voting in the next election, including early voting; recruit candidates; and get out the vote.

In the long run this is the best way. Recalls are tricky and thus easily fought legally.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/20/2021 9:17 AM
Recalls are tricky and thus easily fought legally.
IMO, especially if there is a "cumulative voting" requirement in the Bylaws or corporate statute for recalls. California isn't Montana, but the aforementioned Davis-Stirling California HOA/condo information site does suggest to me that Montana would have to follow a complex set of steps that few, be they HOA owners, HOA directors or HOA attorneys, will be able to understand.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/19/2021 6:18 PM
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Director-Removal-Recall is one entertaining site.

The OP's Board should skip the recall attempt; go to electronic voting in the next election, including early voting; recruit candidates; and get out the vote.

Can they even do electronic voting in Montana? I know it's not allowed in California.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Montana's Condo Act appears to me to be silent on the subject of elections. I think it is the shortest Condo Act of any state that I have ever seen. Someone should double check me.

Montana's Nonprofit Corporation Act appears to me to permit electronic ballots. An annual meeting, where votes are tabulated, still needs to happen, though.

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