. HOA is going inactive ...woo hoo

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

This is a great thing.

There is nothing in our deeds about an HOA , no common areas, no amenities, and no shared maintenance .

we can now replace our roof before the new hurricane season.

The attorney that reviewed our case found out that the PM company already had several lawsuits against them and complaints with the state regulating agency.

The attorney was questioning why an HOA in this type of community in the first place.

It was almost unanimous that the owners wanted to be done with property management company and the HOA. One elderly woman wanted to keep the HOA because she took advantage of the property management company’s mowing service.

A neighbor told her he would be happy to mow her postage stamp size yard when he does his own.

Thank you to John C in North Carolina and everyone that gave me lots of valuable information.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Be careful what you wish for - you may get it. If this is a community of single-family detached homes, I would agree you don't need a HOA - it could be the builder set it up because the county or city required it, but didn't follow through on the paperwork needed to actually establish it, and no one thought this would be a problem.

If this is a townhouse or high-rise condo, I hope everyone can agree on who to hire to replace the roof, how much this will cost and how much per owner. If you can all agree to this, congratulations. Of course, you'll have to figure out what happens down the road when that roof needs replacement due to being out or wiped out by yet another hurricane or something else. It would be easier to have some sort of reserve fund to cover that so no one gets an unpleasant surprise about a bill they might not be able to afford.

As for the property manager, they may have had several lawsuits against them, but that's probably not your issue unless they were doing the same things in your community others were suing them about. The HOA (such as it was) could have easily fired the property manager and went with someone else.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I have visions of Someone (who?) trying to collect the money to pay for the roofers, and one owner says "nope".

Or the roofers damage something else, and Someone (who?) has to pursue getting them to pay for the damage. And if they don't, Someone (who?) has to coordinate with the neighbors to pay for it themselves and get it fixed. (And one owner says "nope".)

Or Someone (who?) has to manage/supervise the workers, and everybody says "oh no, not me, tooooo busy".

Or something else goes kaput do to routine wear and tear, and Someone (who?) has to coordinate all of the stuff needed to address this (and there is a lot of "stuff").

And on and on...

An HOA is simply the Someone who replaces a bunch of homeowners running around like the Keystone Kops.

Lessons will be learned....

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I'm also wondering how many reputable roofing companies will agree to take on a job where they're not dealing with a single entity but instead multiple, independent entities who have no legal right to speak for each other or compel others to pay for the work. Personally, I wouldn't touch this since too many things can go wrong.

Of course this is Florida, so they can just wait until the next hurricane - the state will be swarming with "roofers" who are none too fussy about such things...

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 03/29/2021 8:53 AM
Be careful what you wish for - you may get it. If this is a community of single-family detached homes, I would agree you don't need a HOA - it could be the builder set it up because the county or city required it, but didn't follow through on the paperwork needed to actually establish it, and no one thought this would be a problem.

If this is a townhouse or high-rise condo, I hope everyone can agree on who to hire to replace the roof, how much this will cost and how much per owner. If you can all agree to this, congratulations. Of course, you'll have to figure out what happens down the road when that roof needs replacement due to being out or wiped out by yet another hurricane or something else. It would be easier to have some sort of reserve fund to cover that so no one gets an unpleasant surprise about a bill they might not be able to afford.

As for the property manager, they may have had several lawsuits against them, but that's probably not your issue unless they were doing the same things in your community others were suing them about. The HOA (such as it was) could have easily fired the property manager and went with someone else.

I agree. They are making a mistake.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 03/29/2021 9:57 AM
I'm also wondering how many reputable roofing companies will agree to take on a job where they're not dealing with a single entity but instead multiple, independent entities who have no legal right to speak for each other or compel others to pay for the work. Personally, I wouldn't touch this since too many things can go wrong.

Of course this is Florida, so they can just wait until the next hurricane - the state will be swarming with "roofers" who are none too fussy about such things...

The mistake was having an HOA &PM in the first place. I already have it in writing from the county. That our 6 plex ( can replace each roof on individual units ie : property line to property line However, it’s obviously better to replace at once. I did take John C’s advice and checked the deed , zip zero about an HOA.

We absolutely have the right to replace the roof on property that we own, we are not speaking for any other dwelling, we just agreed on our own to use the same roofer and join together to have a more cohesive appearance, and better structure.

It’s the only logical solution

The CC&Rs required all owners to be responsible for all maintenance of our units inside and out ( the only exception was the roof) the HOA had 15 years to get it right and failed along with the property management company that only encouraged using their mowers.😂🤣

Our building has a contract with a “preferred contractor with a local credit union “. Which is
handling the financing and nobody pays until the roof is complete and passes inspection.

The next hurricane won’t be a problem, we all maintain insurance and if we have to repeat , at least our insurance will cover . Given the amount of money wasted on a shady property management company, we could have replaced our roof twice.

Not a single person has been able to pinpoint a single benefit from the HOA or Property management company ( we were stuck with them). It was not possible to terminate the contract. They would have had to go out of business or we could prove egregious conduct. The contract was 1 sided.

The only remaining board member did look into a reputable property management company and they said seriously, since you have no bills ,amenities or common areas why do you need us???

Guess what,

Each owner will be getting a new roof and a certificate of completion and no more money hemorrhaging to a worthless-and destructive property management company .

I will be listing my unit and capitalizing on the sizzling market. The other owners are not in a position to sell for a few more years.
I’m passing on the property in a far better condition than I acquired.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 03/29/2021 8:53 AM
Be careful what you wish for - you may get it. If this is a community of single-family detached homes, I would agree you don't need a HOA - it could be the builder set it up because the county or city required it, but didn't follow through on the paperwork needed to actually establish it, and no one thought this would be a problem.

If this is a townhouse or high-rise condo, I hope everyone can agree on who to hire to replace the roof, how much this will cost and how much per owner. If you can all agree to this, congratulations. Of course, you'll have to figure out what happens down the road when that roof needs replacement due to being out or wiped out by yet another hurricane or something else. It would be easier to have some sort of reserve fund to cover that so no one gets an unpleasant surprise about a bill they might not be able to afford.

As for the property manager, they may have had several lawsuits against them, but that's probably not your issue unless they were doing the same things in your community others were suing them about. The HOA (such as it was) could have easily fired the property manager and went with someone else.

Thank you, yes it was very easy to get 6 owners of a 6 plex to agree to replace the failed roof , it was easy the contractor gave us all identical bids because our units are identical.

We all own our roofs separate and have separate insurance to cover, plus the new roof is far superior due to codes and quality changes.

I have lived a very long time in Florida and this is the only time I have lost shingles from a storm

We already are paying that “ surprise “ bill, because the HOA and property management company had 15 years to save for a roof but they didn’t.

The other lawsuits were for the same thing. breaches of duty & financial crimes

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 03/29/2021 9:39 AM
I have visions of Someone (who?) trying to collect the money to pay for the roofers, and one owner says "nope".

Or the roofers damage something else, and Someone (who?) has to pursue getting them to pay for the damage. And if they don't, Someone (who?) has to coordinate with the neighbors to pay for it themselves and get it fixed. (And one owner says "nope".)

Or Someone (who?) has to manage/supervise the workers, and everybody says "oh no, not me, tooooo busy".

Or something else goes kaput do to routine wear and tear, and Someone (who?) has to coordinate all of the stuff needed to address this (and there is a lot of "stuff").

And on and on...

An HOA is simply the Someone who replaces a bunch of homeowners running around like the Keystone Kops.

Lessons will be learned....

We maintain our own property just like any other property owners.

Collecting money??? again that would be the credit union that has done individual loans for each owner, AFTER the roof is completed and inspected by the county. Then the owners simply pay their loan directly to the credit union.

The roofing company has a foreman that supervise, just like any contractor

The lesson is not every risky dink community needs an HOA and not every HOA needs a property management company

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Oh ths is not good... It is so wrong...

Former HOA President

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/29/2021 9:40 PM
Oh ths is not good... It is so wrong...

How?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Cindy,

I understand that you are looking to get the roof repaired and sell.
This is likely to sway your perception of the issue.

An inactive HOA does not mean that the HOA doesn't exist.
An inactive HOA does not mean that the covenants don't exist.

Per your posting, you are in a town home development where the HOA is responsible for replacing the roof (perhaps other things as well). This could raise issues for the future. However, as I said, since you are looking to sell and move, it won't affect you.

I'm glad you're getting the roof replaced. It was silly not to have it done earlier.
I would advise you to not only check the deed but also the PLAT. Sometimes the CC&Rs are attached to the Plat.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 03/30/2021 5:29 AM
Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

Maybe. On the other hand, homeowners may get themselves a surprise when they try to sell and discover that banks won't lend to prospective buyers, new roof or no new roof. Homeowners may pretend that there is no HOA - but if banks don't agree and object to the absence of a reserve fund, among many other issues, end of story.

But... not my circus, not my monkeys.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 03/30/2021 1:44 AM
Cindy,

I understand that you are looking to get the roof repaired and sell.
This is likely to sway your perception of the issue.

An inactive HOA does not mean that the HOA doesn't exist.
An inactive HOA does not mean that the covenants don't exist.

Per your posting, you are in a town home development where the HOA is responsible for replacing the roof (perhaps other things as well). This could raise issues for the future. However, as I said, since you are looking to sell and move, it won't affect you.

I'm glad you're getting the roof replaced. It was silly not to have it done earlier.
I would advise you to not only check the deed but also the PLAT. Sometimes the CC&Rs are attached to the Plat.

Thank you Tim , correct I’m moving Why should I care , however, if I were staying, I would say definitely it’s a blessing to be rid of the PM.

Yes , I know to let the HOA become inactive ( until it dies in 13 years) the unworkable CC& Rs still exists. However if the board doesn’t exist, and dues reduced to zero dollars.
They would have to go to a lot of effort and expense to rejuvenate the HOA.

Honestly, this humble price point of home , the owners don’t need /want a fee based HOA or PM.

We call them townhomes but they are actually a “6 plex”, Duplex style 1 story , transient community, this is not a long term housing solution for most of the owners. Military, students , etc...

No job for the HOA to do . All owners are responsible for their units ( except the roof). But we don’t need the HOA for the roof either. The HOA collected and paid PM hundreds of thousands of dollars and no money saved.

The county gave us written permission to replace our individual roofs as needed. Obviously, it’s best to get all 6 owners on board and replace at the same time.

Nothing on record saying we are deed restricted or have an HOA. There is nothing in the boonies county farm land area

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 03/30/2021 5:29 AM
Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

Exactly, it has been a failure on all levels for 15 years. A radical change is necessary. Since there is no record/ plat / deed stating that this has an HOA . We are finally rid of the questionable PM. The owners are relieved no more wasting big cash . That way owners can maintain their property as they choose.

In the end , it was the owners that executed a plan to properly replace the dead roof. The PM only impeded our efforts and needs for years,

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Granted the property manager may have been crappy, but the HOA (you and your neighbors) hire the property manager who is supposed to work at the board'd direction. As Melissa likes to say, the HOA is you and your neighbors - in this case, it would appear some (most?) of you didn't seem to pay attention to any of this (or realize there were no documents whatsoever) until the roof damage. Why did it take so bloody long for everyone (and there are only six of you) to figure this out? This property manager had been around for several years, so it's not like you didn't know it existed.

I'm not completely surprised - look around this website and you find many people have no idea what they move into. The builder makes it sound really benign (until it goes bankrupt), realtors don't know what HOAs are or what they mean and make it sound like a block club that only has Christmas decorating contests (because their eye is on the sales commission check) and the original homeowners sell quickly so they're long gone by the time the caca hits the fan. Frankly, I've never thought that HOAs under 15 units made any sense - better for the developer to just rent the things out, hire a property manager to run all of it and factor future repairs in the rent.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 03/30/2021 5:44 AM

Posted By JohnT38 on 03/30/2021 5:29 AM
Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

Maybe. On the other hand, homeowners may get themselves a surprise when they try to sell and discover that banks won't lend to prospective buyers, new roof or no new roof. Homeowners may pretend that there is no HOA - but if banks don't agree and object to the absence of a reserve fund, among many other issues, end of story.

But... not my circus, not my monkeys.

I agree about the surprise. New roofs or not, there is still an HOA.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 03/30/2021 5:29 AM
Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

Exactly, it has been a failure on all levels for 15 years. A radical change is necessary. Since there is no record/ plat / deed stating that this has an HOA . We are finally rid of the questionable PM. The owners are relieved no more wasting big cash . That way owners can maintain their roof.

The deed says. : Single family 1 story residence in a subdivision from county farmlands

In the end , it was the owners that executed a plan to properly replace the dead roof.

The PM only impeded our efforts and needs for years.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 03/30/2021 11:39 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 03/30/2021 5:44 AM

Posted By JohnT38 on 03/30/2021 5:29 AM
Perhaps this really is the best solution. For fifteen years the owners were never able to grasp the concept that a property manager works for them and passively sat by blaming others for their failure to take control of the situation. Based on this, it's a no win situation for everyone regardless of the competency of the property manager.

Maybe. On the other hand, homeowners may get themselves a surprise when they try to sell and discover that banks won't lend to prospective buyers, new roof or no new roof. Homeowners may pretend that there is no HOA - but if banks don't agree and object to the absence of a reserve fund, among many other issues, end of story.

But... not my circus, not my monkeys.

I agree about the surprise. New roofs or not, there is still an HOA.

We are okay with the HOA still existing , although there is zero mention of it on the deeds.

We just want to be left alone and since the HOA has no purpose, when I moved here , and I found out they had an HOA , I was what for????

I was told , they are going to replace the roof and they mow your yard. They mowed our yard once and like most everyone else they were forbidden from mowing again.
We dealt with run around from the PM on the roof for years and once people started questioning things , they jumped ship.

I gave up on the roof and was going to sell , but hurricane interfered. Again been delayed for another 6 months waiting for the PM to let us to replace the roof .

Proof is in the pudding, we are getting it done

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Posted By SheliaH on 03/30/2021 11:26 AM
Granted the property manager may have been crappy, but the HOA (you and your neighbors) hire the property manager who is supposed to work at the board'd direction. As Melissa likes to say, the HOA is you and your neighbors - in this case, it would appear some (most?) of you didn't seem to pay attention to any of this (or realize there were no documents whatsoever) until the roof damage. Why did it take so bloody long for everyone (and there are only six of you) to figure this out? This property manager had been around for several years, so it's not like you didn't know it existed.

I'm not completely surprised - look around this website and you find many people have no idea what they move into. The builder makes it sound really benign (until it goes bankrupt), realtors don't know what HOAs are or what they mean and make it sound like a block club that only has Christmas decorating contests (because their eye is on the sales commission check) and the original homeowners sell quickly so they're long gone by the time the caca hits the fan. Frankly, I've never thought that HOAs under 15 units made any sense - better for the developer to just rent the things out, hire a property manager to run all of it and factor future repairs in the rent.

Thank you Sheila, your correct it’s ridiculous to have a fee based HOA and PM and get zero in return.
Calling it a community is a stretch , it’s a street.

The area has a extremely large housing shortage.

Remember we have not been here very long, the PM was given legal permission from the original board to handle everything. The PM was acting as our HOA board. The PM got the money, and occasionally would send a letter to so and so for putting their trash can outside too early. The PM told us the roof was in process etc..

myself and neighbors wanted to get rid of the property management company but we were locked in a 1 sided long contract. We could not escape.

We had hurricane Michael ,the pandemic and hurricane Sally to disrupt things .

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Posted By SheliaH on 03/30/2021 11:26 AM
Granted the property manager may have been crappy, but the HOA (you and your neighbors) hire the property manager who is supposed to work at the board'd direction. As Melissa likes to say, the HOA is you and your neighbors - in this case, it would appear some (most?) of you didn't seem to pay attention to any of this (or realize there were no documents whatsoever) until the roof damage. Why did it take so bloody long for everyone (and there are only six of you) to figure this out? This property manager had been around for several years, so it's not like you didn't know it existed.

I'm not completely surprised - look around this website and you find many people have no idea what they move into. The builder makes it sound really benign (until it goes bankrupt), realtors don't know what HOAs are or what they mean and make it sound like a block club that only has Christmas decorating contests (because their eye is on the sales commission check) and the original homeowners sell quickly so they're long gone by the time the caca hits the fan. Frankly, I've never thought that HOAs under 15 units made any sense - better for the developer to just rent the things out, hire a property manager to run all of it and factor future repairs in the rent.

Thank you Sheila, your correct it’s ridiculous to have a fee based HOA and PM and get zero in return.
Calling it a community is a stretch , it’s a street.

The area has a extremely large housing shortage.

Remember we have not been here very long, the PM was given legal permission from the original board to handle everything. The PM was acting as our HOA board. The PM got the money, and occasionally would send a letter to so and so for putting their trash can outside too early. The PM told us the roof was in process etc..

myself and neighbors wanted to get rid of the property management company but we were locked in a 1 sided long contract. We could not escape.

We had hurricane Michael ,the pandemic and hurricane Sally to disrupt things .

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Shelia

What some of us are saying good or bad PM, good or bad lawn service, good or bad HOA, good or bad roofs, low rent or high rent neighborhood, etc. are not the issues. The issue is there appears to be (or have been) an HOA and if a buyer tries to get a mortgage, the lender and title company are going to find it and ask about it. The answer of well some lawyer told us to ignore it will not fly.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Do not think the OP is getting why HOA's are formed. It is irrelevant if you have a PM or not in a HOA. That is just an administrative option. The real purpose of a HOA is to be incorporated so that the members can collect the necessary funds to operate. It's a means to an end so one collect dues or pay for repairs. If your HOA isn't incorporated, then it can't legally collect funds for it's own operation expenses.

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. Legally right to collect for a project to replace a shared property like a roof, it has to be considered a "business". So whether it is active or not, managed or not, it still needs to exist in order to collect.

I am not sure why the OP thinks what a credit union relationship is involved in this set up?

Former HOA President

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 03/30/2021 2:13 PM
Shelia

What some of us are saying good or bad PM, good or bad lawn service, good or bad HOA, good or bad roofs, low rent or high rent neighborhood, etc. are not the issues. The issue is there appears to be (or have been) an HOA and if a buyer tries to get a mortgage, the lender and title company are going to find it and ask about it. The answer of well some lawyer told us to ignore it will not fly.

First there is nothing in the deed or plat that mentions that an HOA even exists. (I have my deed and the title search documents).

These units sell within in days ,all the time. So far no one is having trouble getting loans.

Since hurricane Sally, no one has tried to sell because the tarps on the roofs.

The attorney recommended dropping the dues to zero at through the end of the year. Then the owners can decide which direction they want to go.

The county said this “street” is not required to maintain an HOA. We thought we needed the HOA to replace the roof, but we don’t.

CindyH6 (Florida)
Posts: 71

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/30/2021 3:01 PM
Do not think the OP is getting why HOA's are formed. It is irrelevant if you have a PM or not in a HOA. That is just an administrative option. The real purpose of a HOA is to be incorporated so that the members can collect the necessary funds to operate. It's a means to an end so one collect dues or pay for repairs. If your HOA isn't incorporated, then it can't legally collect funds for it's own operation expenses.

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. Legally right to collect for a project to replace a shared property like a roof, it has to be considered a "business". So whether it is active or not, managed or not, it still needs to exist in order to collect.

I am not sure why the OP thinks what a credit union relationship is involved in this set up?

Hi Melissa Alabama,

That is fine and dandy, but not at all true in this circumstance.

You say the HOA is to pay for shared crap, but we don’t have any shared crap. No amenities, no sidewalks, no street lights etc...
And finally no shared roof ,

We own our own roof and have written permission from the county saying it’s perfectly legal for us to replace our individual roofs. However, the builder didn’t stagger the roofs so from an aesthetic perspective it is better to have them all done at the same time.

Some posters made ridiculous comments about the owners going around collecting money for the new roof ( how sloppy)and oh no how do we decide who pays what ???? On my , ... how about the genius idea of we only pay for the roof we own. .

I clarified that we don’t do tacky stuff like that.

This is how it works ... in construction ...

a preferred contractor by a credit union has a very high standard of compliance and quality . Only the finest contractors will be allowed to work directly with a local credit union as preferred contractor. This protects the buyer/ owner to help assure they get inspection passing work done and weeds out fraudsters( construction fraud etc..)

This is protects the lender credit union as well.

The 6 owners all agreed to use the same high quantity reputable contractor and it made sense to use the same lender. This is a solid and safe solution because we don’t pay anything until the roof is completed and passed the county inspection 🧐.

As opposed to paying a ransom for a roof we would never actually get . The HOA/ PM had 15 years to put away cash for all the roofs but they didn’t, why give then another dime they have gifted enough money and already have terminated the contract. Yaaaaaayyy