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JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Hi. I'm a new trustee and we sent a 30 day pre-lien letter to a member and they have not remedied a cure for the violation within 30 days. Does anyone have a sample lien form/template for a bylaw violation to CURE a violation that does not have a $$ amount for filing a lien? Every sample I see online has a monetary amount. Thanks in advance for your help.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
This isn't how liens work. You can't lien for a violation. You can lien for unpaid dues. However, there is a process of placing a lien for the HOA fixing a violation. Let's say someone has painted their house the wrong color. The HOA can request they repaint it the correct color or the HOA will do it for them. If the HOA does paint it, it will be at the HOA's expense and will send the owner the painting bill. IF the owner does not pay the paint bill, THEN the HOA can lien for the amount of the paint bill. It should be noted this can't be basis for a foreclosure. Foreclosures are based on UNPAID DUES.

So if you are wanting to place a lien for someone leaving the garbage can out that is against the HOA rules, then that is more along the lines of issue FINES. Which are the process of corrective actions. However, your HOA needs to have a FINING Schedule in place AND the right to fine. The fining schedule is the list of violation equals this amount of fine. It has to be distributed to ALL members.

So you will not find a form to file a lien for a HOA violation. You find them for unpaid dues. Some states require a lawyer to file. Which that expense is part of the lien of the money that will be owed. Don't assume an individual or HOA can just file the paperwork. It is a legal process.

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/05/2021 3:48 PM
This isn't how liens work. You can't lien for a violation. You can lien for unpaid dues. However, there is a process of placing a lien for the HOA fixing a violation. Let's say someone has painted their house the wrong color. The HOA can request they repaint it the correct color or the HOA will do it for them. If the HOA does paint it, it will be at the HOA's expense and will send the owner the painting bill. IF the owner does not pay the paint bill, THEN the HOA can lien for the amount of the paint bill. It should be noted this can't be basis for a foreclosure. Foreclosures are based on UNPAID DUES.

So if you are wanting to place a lien for someone leaving the garbage can out that is against the HOA rules, then that is more along the lines of issue FINES. Which are the process of corrective actions. However, your HOA needs to have a FINING Schedule in place AND the right to fine. The fining schedule is the list of violation equals this amount of fine. It has to be distributed to ALL members.

So you will not find a form to file a lien for a HOA violation. You find them for unpaid dues. Some states require a lawyer to file. Which that expense is part of the lien of the money that will be owed. Don't assume an individual or HOA can just file the paperwork. It is a legal process.

Nope. depends on the state.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
The best thing a new trustee can do is to learn the legal limits of what they can and can't do, or they'll get themselves into a world of hurt.

The legal limits will be found in your CC&Rs, your bylaws, and in state laws governing communities associations (or corporations if your state does not have specific laws for HOAs or COAs. As John noted, laws vary by state and by community. Boards have significant limitations on what they can lawfully do.

The normal process for violations of your CC&rRs is to impose fines or other consequences. In order to do so, your CC&Rs must allow this, and the association must have a published fining schedule. It's also common for associations to send out one or two warning letters before imposing any kind of fine or other consequence.

This is often referred to as "due process" - and failure to do things by the book can result in an owner successfully challenging whatever the board has done about the violation. No shortcuts!!

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/06/2021 4:52 AM
The best thing a new trustee can do is to learn the legal limits of what they can and can't do, or they'll get themselves into a world of hurt.

The legal limits will be found in your CC&Rs, your bylaws, and in state laws governing communities associations (or corporations if your state does not have specific laws for HOAs or COAs. As John noted, laws vary by state and by community. Boards have significant limitations on what they can lawfully do.

The normal process for violations of your CC&rRs is to impose fines or other consequences. In order to do so, your CC&Rs must allow this, and the association must have a published fining schedule. It's also common for associations to send out one or two warning letters before imposing any kind of fine or other consequence.

This is often referred to as "due process" - and failure to do things by the book can result in an owner successfully challenging whatever the board has done about the violation. No shortcuts!!


Forgot to mention that many/most associations must allow for a hearing before any imposition of fines.

There are many required steps between a violation of the CC&Rs and a lien (assuming a lien is even possible).
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I have never heard of any state that allows for liens other than for unpaid dues or corrective actions the HOA took. Fines can not be the basis of liens unless you do some "fancy" accounting. Meaning the HOA applies your dues collection money to pay off the fines. Which then of course makes it "appear" as unpaid dues on the records. That is how HOA may do the lien process you suggest.

Otherwise this HOA isn't going about things the proper way or using the right tool. Which is a fining schedule, ability to fine, and choosing how they want to apply the paying off of those fines.

Note: Fines can not be the basis of any foreclosure. They are punitive in nature. Liens/foreclosures are not based on punitive cost/expenses. They are based on unpaid debt that is part of their income. Fines are never ever income.

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/06/2021 8:43 AM
I have never heard of any state that allows for liens other than for unpaid dues or corrective actions the HOA took. Fines can not be the basis of liens unless you do some "fancy" accounting. Meaning the HOA applies your dues collection money to pay off the fines. Which then of course makes it "appear" as unpaid dues on the records. That is how HOA may do the lien process you suggest.

Otherwise this HOA isn't going about things the proper way or using the right tool. Which is a fining schedule, ability to fine, and choosing how they want to apply the paying off of those fines.

Note: Fines can not be the basis of any foreclosure. They are punitive in nature. Liens/foreclosures are not based on punitive cost/expenses. They are based on unpaid debt that is part of their income. Fines are never ever income.

Wrong. Fines in some states can trigger a lien. Google is your friend. Sometimes I'm surprised that this site allows people to give legal advice.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
In my state and my community, fines are classified as assessments, meaning that we can lien and foreclose based on fines.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
In SC we can lien based on fines. We have had differing opinions on a foreclosure based on fines. One attorney said easy to do. Another attorney says while the law does not say you cannot, he believes most judges will not allow such as fines can be capricious.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I think it would be hard to foreclose based on fines alone because fines are generally so small compared to assessments. You'd need to have some other charges in there - such as legal fees or repair costs assessed to the owner if they did some serious damage to a clubhouse or something.

Judges can be reluctant to agree to a foreclosure, so our attorneys told us to be sure to make the case as slam dunk as possible. The board needs to follow procedures to the letter, and it needs to be clear that the owner has no intention of living up to their obligations. (We actually foreclosed successfully last summer, for a combination of unpaid assessments, late fees and legal costs.)
DaveP8 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 47
Posted:
Cathy:

What was the total owed to the HOA when you foreclosed? Was the property then auctioned or sold outright?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let me put this in perspective. Let's say you sell your car to someone. You agree to a payment plan. They stop paying. Your choices are to lien them or take it back (foreclosure). However, if the new owner decides to paint it "purple" and a giant neon sign on it, you can't lien them if they are still making the payments. You can instead make them pay for the restoration of the car back to original condition. If they do not, then may fine them.

This is an example of what consitutes what is lien/foreclosure and what is just a violation and what is payment due.

Former HOA President
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Unfortunately, our Bylaws don't have fines currently, but I'm proposing an amendment to add fines/penalties for violations. We have a 200' rule that no building can be within 200' of the roadway and we have three homes in violation. We are not incorporated in MO, so we can only take action at the county level where our Bylaws are recorded. Since we can not put liens on these properties and don't really want a judge to rule they must move their homes, I'll propose a $500 special assessment for these homeowners going forward as a penalty for violating our 200' rule.

We are also adding an Arbitration Clause to our Bylaws to minimize any future litigation costs and I highly recommend EVERYONE add an ARB clause.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveP8 on 03/06/2021 10:58 AM
Cathy:

What was the total owed to the HOA when you foreclosed? Was the property then auctioned or sold outright?

It was under $7000. The owner had pretty much stopped paying a couple years earlier. The property was auctioned, and the minimum bid was set at the initial amount of the mortgage. We actually netted much more than that.

Personal opinion: the buyer overpaid. I'm grateful that the buyer did so, but I think that's pretty unusual. Why I think it happened in this case: this is a desirable, well maintained community in a popular area, at an attractive price point, and listed homes sell in one to ten days.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What do your CC&Rs (AKA: deed restrictions; covenants; declaration) say, Jeff, about enforcement of them? Whatever they say, is then elaborated on in your Rules & Regulations, i.e., fines, hearings, etc. Is this 200- ft. rule in them, or in your Rules & regulations? Where, exactly?

Bylaws usually are not about fines, penalties, etc. They're about the structure of your HOA--elections, directors, officers, types of meetings.

I think there may be some misunderstanding about your governing documents.
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Kerry, we do not have any R&R, just Bylaws. Would it be unorthodoxed to add fines/penalties to our Bylaws since we don't have R&R or CCR?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Are you sure, Jeff that your assn. is an HOA? Do you have an common areas tha all owners are resosbile to maintain and to which assessments are paid to maintain & repair and replace those items?

I'm pretty weak on this and it's a legal point, but I always though that corporations had to have bylaws. Can a group have bylaws if they're not a corporation? I's your bylaws, right that say how to elect trustees, etc.?
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Kerry, we are known as Lake Timber Ridge Land Owners Association and we only have Bylaws outlining assessments, road maintenance, electing trustees, etc.. However, we are not registered nor incorporated in Missouri. The head trustee of 20 years passed away in 2020 so we're all trying to pick up the pieces. Unfortunately, we lost all our records that he had b c the other trustees at the time did not attempt to get the records before the heirs had thrown them away and his computer.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffG12 on 03/06/2021 1:38 PM
Kerry, we are known as Lake Timber Ridge Land Owners Association and we only have Bylaws outlining assessments, road maintenance, electing trustees, etc.. However, we are not registered nor incorporated in Missouri. The head trustee of 20 years passed away in 2020 so we're all trying to pick up the pieces. Unfortunately, we lost all our records that he had b c the other trustees at the time did not attempt to get the records before the heirs had thrown them away and his computer.

That's unfortunate.

Do your deeds have any restrictions or other limitations on them? That may provide a clue. These things are probably recorded in your county and should be available from the Recorder's office (with luck they'll have them on their web site).

There has to be some sort of legal entity that is responsible for maintaining commonly owned property such as the roads, and in your case it's a land owners association. I don't understand how it is not registered in some fashion. In addition, being a corporation provides important legal protections for trustees and other homeowners - without that, individuals become personally liable if someone, say, has an accident on your street and sues the land owners association.

You may need to talk to a lawyer about some of this stuff. Most of us here are familiar with HOAs that are incorporated, and there may be some significant differences between them and your association that could lead us astray.

JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Bylaws attached and recorded. We have a $3M insurance coverage plan for trustees and landowners in the event someone drowns or whatever.
📎 Attachments (1):

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📄136112887271.pdf(798 KB)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Jeff

I am more of the school that unless something is clearly prohibited, it is allowed. I say you can set up a fining structure for violations.

That said, I believe going after retroactive fines for things that happened in the past, like $500 for being to close to the road, will not legally fly.

Nice try though.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveP8 on 03/06/2021 10:58 AM
Cathy:

What was the total owed to the HOA when you foreclosed? Was the property then auctioned or sold outright?

The bottom line on a foreclosure is will we make money and/or pay off what is owed us? Personally I would want a very big financial cushion for my HOA to even consider a foreclosure. Chance are those in trouble owe more then just their HOA dues.

Value of $200K, $150K mortgage, foreclosure would be on the financial edge for me.
Value of $200K, $100K mortgage, foreclosure should be looked at.
Value of $200K, $50K Mortgage, how could any one be this stupid?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/06/2021 3:13 PM
Posted By DaveP8 on 03/06/2021 10:58 AM
Cathy:

What was the total owed to the HOA when you foreclosed? Was the property then auctioned or sold outright?


The bottom line on a foreclosure is will we make money and/or pay off what is owed us? Personally I would want a very big financial cushion for my HOA to even consider a foreclosure. Chance are those in trouble owe more then just their HOA dues.

Value of $200K, $150K mortgage, foreclosure would be on the financial edge for me.
Value of $200K, $100K mortgage, foreclosure should be looked at.
Value of $200K, $50K Mortgage, how could any one be this stupid?

Often you won't make money on a foreclosure. As Melissa has said, you're stopping the bleeding and - with luck - eventually getting a new owner who pays their assessments. We set the minimum bid where we did in order to clear the bank loan as well.

And it was just dumb luck that the winning bid would have been a decent offer if the home had been move-in ready and listed in the MLS. That usually doesn't happen. (My impression is that the new owner is a newbie real estate investor who doesn't know what he's doing.)

I think the calculation will be different for condos vs. a single family home community since condos often have a greater percentage of common elements and may include utilities in the monthly assessments - there is less discretionary spending and maybe more urgency in dealing with non-payment. Our foreclosure also apparently got the attention of our other chronic deadbeat who realized that the board meant business and started paying. So there is that as well.

Our foreclosure was a perfect storm of things going right, and you can't assume that will happen too often.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffG12 on 03/06/2021 2:11 PM
Bylaws attached and recorded. We have a $3M insurance coverage plan for trustees and landowners in the event someone drowns or whatever.

That helps. The bylaws in this case combine what are often separate documents, so they contain use restrictions (which are referred to as "restrictions" and "covenants" in the document) as well as provisions for an annual meeting, etc. Very bare bones, though, compared to the typical CC&Rs, bylaws, etc. of many HOAs.

I did find the following:

"The trustees shall have the authority to commence a legal action to enforce any provision contained herein. The trustees may defer any action until the specific matter is raised at a meeting of owners. If suit is required against an owner to enforce these restrictions, the owner shall be required to pay the trustees' attorney fees and the cost of such action if the suit is successful. If costs are assessed against the trustees or the subdivision the trustees may pay such items out of subdivision funds."

I didn't see anything about fines except in the case of delinquent assessments. So the question is, do fines constitute "legal action"? If so, it's OK to fine for violations.

I sort of disagree with John about it being OK if it's not prohibited. I think that if it's not spelling out in the bylaws, which are a contract, then it's not allowed. But we're not lawyers, and I think court cases have come down on both sides of the question.

Long story short, I think you need a competent legal opinion.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Glad you got lucky Cathy3 on your foreclosure. Ours took a year of abandonment before the home ever got occupied. I even had to go to court over it for the renter/owner dispute representing the HOA. The renter won. The owner had tried to force them to pay the back dues. Plus did not follow through with "rent to own" agreement. Our original bidder backed out after the auction so the house went into a Tax/Hud foreclosure. (The type of foreclosure you see on TV get rich schemes).

GENERALLY what happens in a Foreclosure is this. There has been a lien filed for atleast a year. Which means 1 - 2 years of unpaid dues. (We liened at 6 months). Plus the legal expenses of filing, late fees, and interest is also accumulated.

This example to keep it easy we will say 1 year of unpaid dues at $100 a month. ($1200). It is around $400 - $500 to file a lien using a lawyer. (Most require a lawyer to file). Interest is around 3 - 6 %. Plus late fees of $25...($300). That is roughly 2K if you do $500 lien fees. I won't do interest as it varies.

It cost us in legal fees to file the foreclosure $1800. We are now up to $3800. However, this money isn't necessarily what is "owed" but also what your HOA's HOLE is. Meaning the HOA is out from earnings INCOME of 2K. The $1800 is an EXPENSE incurred in order to collect the 2K owed. What your paying out to fill that HOLE.

There are other factors involved we will keep out for simplicity such if the bank is foreclosing. If that is the case the HOA is doing the work for the bank. Not worth pursuing a foreclosure but keeping a lien or a super lien.

The house goes up for bid. The opening bid will always go to the HOA for $1. Sounds great huh? You think HOA can buy it for $1 and make a profit? No. That is $1 AND the $3800. 2K of which is a hole. 1800 Expense to collect. Plus if the home has a mortgage on it, the HOA will have to pick up the mortgage. HOA is NOT foreclosing on the mortgage. It also has to do the repairs and do maintenance. Let's not forget has to pay the HOA dues on it and insurance.

If it were to sell the property for a profit that is subject to taxes and realtor fees. Plus in many states there is a 6 months to 1 year REDEMPTION period. Meaning the HOA can NOT sell the property for that period of time because the owner has a right to catch up and pay their debts to get back. So the HOA has to own this home for a year including all the house expenses. Can't rent it as it's in the redemption period.

So can you see that foreclosure process is a "Stop the bleeding" and NOT a profit for a HOA??? It get rid of the non-paying owner in hopes for a paying one. Plus it stops falling into a hole of unpaid dues.

Didn't want to hijack this thread with this information but think it needs repeating. A HOA foreclosure is NOT a practice for profit. It's best to advertise it's up for foreclosure and get you a buyer ASAP to buy it when available. NOT the HOA...


Former HOA President
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Does anyone have a sample Arbitration clause that they can share? This is a draft of what I'm trying to put in place with our Bylaw amendments:

9. "THIS CONTRACT CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION PROVISION WHICH MAY BE ENFORCED BY THE PARTIES." all claims must be enforced under the Federal Arbitration Act, 9 U.S.C. and/or the Missouri Arbitration Act, section 435.350 RSMo In the event a dispute shall arise between the parties to this HOA, By-laws, Policies, Rules and Regulations, etc., it is hereby agreed that the dispute shall be referred to Arbitration and Mediation. The arbitrator’s decision shall be final and binding and judgment may be entered thereon. In the event a party fails to proceed with arbitration, unsuccessfully challenges the arbitrator’s award, or fails to comply with arbitrator’s award, the other party is entitled of costs of suit including a reasonable attorney’s fee for having to compel arbitration or defend or enforce the award. Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement, the relationship resulting in or from this Agreement or breach of any duties hereunder will be settled by Arbitration in accordance with the Arbitration Rules. All hearings will be held in Gasconade County, Missouri before an Arbitrator who is a licensed attorney with at least 10 years of experience. A judgment upon the award rendered by the Arbitrator shall be entered in a Court with competent jurisdiction. The Federal Arbitration Act (Title 9 U.S. Code Section 1 et. seq.) shall govern all arbitration and confirmation proceedings. As a condition precedent to the filing of an arbitration claim, the parties agree to first mediate any claims between them. Any party refusing to mediate shall not prevent the other party or parties from pursuing their claims in arbitration. The parties will share the cost of mediation equally. Nothing herein will be construed to prevent any party’s use of injunction, and/or any other prejudgment or provisional action or remedy. Any such action or remedy will not waive the moving party’s right to compel arbitration of any dispute. The parties agree to also meet and negotiate in good faith in order to resolve any disputes which may arise between them. For each arbitration claim and counterclaim, HOA charges a filing fee of $900 for a typical two party case. For each additional party, an additional $450 fee will be due. Parties are defined as those needing separate legal counsel and/or a separate insurance company representative. Each Party shall bear all of its own costs (including the fees of its attorney or other representative) incurred after the Termination of Mediation and shall share equally in the costs of conducting any voluntary arbitration proceeding (collectively "Post Mediation Costs"), except as otherwise provided in this Declaration; provided, however, if the Claim is litigated in whole or in part, the prevailing party shall be entitled to receive an award of attorney's fees and court costs as deemed appropriate by a court of competent jurisdiction.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I hope you aren't doing this without your association attorney looking it over to comply with state law. For starters you may or may not have authority to require arbitration before either side marches to court (and I often suggest arbitration before that to reduce or prevent lots of legal expenses for everyone).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
No. It's a proposed bylam amendment for members to approve, but goal is to save $$ if litigation is required.
JeffG12 (Missouri)
Posts: 18
Posted:
I've read that several HOAs went bankrupt.w litigation so cure is ARB clause.
MikeB23 (Louisiana)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Question. When talking about liens and foreclosures shouldn't the mortgage status be included? I know we have an owner who habitually doesn't pay dues. We have liened and sued and won a judgement. Before we began foreclosure the bank holding the mortgage paid off the judgement.

We are currently at the beginning of the process again. The Board contacted the bank holding the mortgage and asked what they wanted to do and they said they would let us know after we filed the lien.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeB23 on 03/08/2021 3:58 PM
Question. When talking about liens and foreclosures shouldn't the mortgage status be included? I know we have an owner who habitually doesn't pay dues. We have liened and sued and won a judgement. Before we began foreclosure the bank holding the mortgage paid off the judgement.

We are currently at the beginning of the process again. The Board contacted the bank holding the mortgage and asked what they wanted to do and they said they would let us know after we filed the lien.

Our experience was quite different. Owner was gone. Hired a lawyer to reach out to mortgage holder. Took lawyer weeks to find the right contact person. Two weeks later, the mortgage holder sold the mortgage to another bank. Wasted money on a worthless pursuit.

The big unknown is whether the owner has any equity in the house. Public records will tell you how much was borrowed but not how much is owed. You only find out after the bank forecloses or the owner files for bankruptcy and provides the bankruptcy court with the required schedules (which is often not done).

There are so many State variations to the foreclosure process that it's nearly impossible to speak in general terms.

For example:

Some states like mine give super-lien priority for some number of months to debts owed to the HOA. In our case, it's 6 months. If we wait until the bank forecloses, then we recover 6 months of fees including our legal fees. But if we take action first, then the bank can wait until after our legal costs are no longer within the 6-month lookback period. So if we want to collect legal fees, we are better off waiting until after the bank files.

Some states allow non-judicial foreclosures. Other don't. Same with redemption rights by the owner.

Some mortgage documents include Confessions of Judgment clauses, Debt Acceleration clauses, Assignment of Rent clauses, etc. These can cut off rights for other creditors like your HOA.

So yes, there are many factors that need to be considered, the costs of debt recovery are difficult to predict, and this is not a DIY project.
----
Other Experience - We have been able to get a default judgment against personal property up to the statutory limit, but those judgments are not good against real estate in PA. We went as far as having a Sheriff's sale scheduled on the owner's truck and other personal property. The owner paid up. But then the process started all over again.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I totally agree it is not a DIY project.

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