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DebbieW7 (Colorado)
Posts: 3
Posted:
We have three new board members who are trying to get our HOA back on track and following the bylaws. This HOA has been run by a very controlling President/board in the past. The president and Vice President are the old officers, and the three new board members hold the other positions of Secretary, Treasurer. The Secretary called a special board meeting. The President and Vice President are not willing to attend. Our bylaws say the president will preside at all meetings. In a case like this, when the Secretary calls the meeting the the President and VP refuse to attend, can the Secretary preside and have a legal meeting?

Unfortunately the three new members are not willing make waves and do a reelection of officers, which would be the cleanest answer.
Thank you for your time in this!
Debbie
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DebbieW7 on 12/25/2020 8:54 AM
We have three new board members who are trying to get our HOA back on track and following the bylaws. This HOA has been run by a very controlling President/board in the past. The president and Vice President are the old officers, and the three new board members hold the other positions of Secretary, Treasurer. The Secretary called a special board meeting. The President and Vice President are not willing to attend. Our bylaws say the president will preside at all meetings. In a case like this, when the Secretary calls the meeting the the President and VP refuse to attend, can the Secretary preside and have a legal meeting?

Unfortunately the three new members are not willing make waves and do a reelection of officers, which would be the cleanest answer.
Thank you for your time in this!
Debbie

Wouldn't your bylaws state who presides at a board meeting if the president and VP aren't there? At least if the president isn't there, the VP usually is described as fulfilling the president's duties, which could include presiding at a meeting.

If your president and VP don't attend and if your bylaws don't provide for someone else to preside, couldn't the remaining directors remove the VP or appoint an additional VP and have that new VP preside?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
1) Make sure all notice requirements are met (secretary's job)

2) Make sure you still have a quorum with those two absent.

3) If a quorum is present and the President and VP are absent, make a motion for xyz to preside over the meeting.
The motion gets seconded and you vote. Once voted on (expecting an affirmative vote) that individual presides for that one meeting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm with Tim. As long as you have a quorum of directors , you can hold a board meeting.

My question is: do your bylaws state who may "call" a meeting? Our s and also CA state corporations code say that the president or any other two directors may call special meeting of the board. Another question is: How much notice must you give owners, if any?

I doubt your bylaws say who presides if prez & VP are both absent.
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/25/2020 9:35 AM
I'm with Tim. As long as you have a quorum of directors , you can hold a board meeting.

My question is: do your bylaws state who may "call" a meeting? Our s and also CA state corporations code say that the president or any other two directors may call special meeting of the board. Another question is: How much notice must you give owners, if any?

I doubt your bylaws say who presides if prez & VP are both absent.

Yes, I agree with you and if the bylaws are silent as to who presides if the president and VP aren't there, but the directors at the meeting can elect another officer, the directors can just elect another VP (as there usually can be multiple VPs, and the VP(s) fill the president's job if the president is AWOL.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I believe that multiple VPs in HOAs is very uncommon. The Board can choose any director they wish to preside.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
From Bylaws and statute ...

Total directors?
Can a single director call a board meeting?
If you have a quorum without the P and VP, can the quorum elect another P and VP?
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/25/2020 1:05 PM
I believe that multiple VPs in HOAs is very uncommon. The Board can choose any director they wish to preside.

Fair point. It may be uncommon. The bylaws of one HOA I was recently looking at allows multiple VPs and other officers with powers that the Board may determine. So I guess the Board could elect another officer with whatever title and powers the board wants, which could include presiding at meetings. Perhaps "Crown Prince of the Homeowners' Association", with the right to preside at board meetings?
DebbieW7 (Colorado)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Wow! All of you are GREAT! Thanks for your input. To answer the questions asked:
1. Yes our bylaws allow for multiple VP's
2. The bylaws say the president will preside at all board meetings. (Altho it also says the VP can take the President role when absent). The bylaws do not address if the P & VP are absent
3. The secretary has already called a special board meeting (allowed per the bylaws), so the timing and notice is all proper.
4. There will be a quorum of the board (3) at this special meeting. (There are a total of 5 board members)

Now my questions for you:
1. Can the secretary be VP, if we have a VP? The bylaws say we can have multiple VP's and it also says one person can hold two positions for any except the president. So we would have in essence 1 - President; 2 - VP's, 1 - Secretary : 1 - Treasurer, and 1 non-officer. So 5 members and 6 positions, does that make sense?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DebbieW7 on 12/25/2020 4:50 PM

2. The bylaws say the president will preside at all board meetings. (Altho it also says the VP can take the President role when absent). The bylaws do not address if the P & VP are absent
I believe the issue is whether the Board can transact business when the President is absent but a quorum is present. I believe California Corporations Code 7211 (a) (8) answers this:

"Unless otherwise provided in the articles or in the bylaws...
[phrase redacted, due to its not applying] an act or decision done or made by a majority of the directors present at a meeting duly held at which a quorum is present is the act of the board. The articles or bylaws may not provide that a lesser vote than a majority of the directors present at a meeting is the act of the board. A meeting at which a quorum is initially present may continue to transact business notwithstanding the withdrawal of directors, if any action taken is approved by at least a majority of the required quorum for that meeting, or a greater number required by this division, the articles or the bylaws."

In my opinion, the fact that the president was not there to preside will not invalidate an act of a majority of the quorum. Why? Because then the president and any previously appointed VP would be determining whether they could be removed as president and VP,simply by refusing to attend. Those directors present and forming a quorum could not even vote to appoint a new VP.

This fails the common sense test.

I say the Corporate Code trumps the Bylaws section regarding the president (or VP) presiding.

I suggest your quorum call the Special Meeting of the Board; duly notice it; cite the authority of Corporate Code section 7211; place on the agenda removal of officers and vote for new officers; vote to remove the absent President and VP; and vote to establish a new President and VP.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:22 PM
I believe California Corporations Code 7211 (a) (8)
See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7211
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Unless required by you bylaws, having two VPs is a bit regundZnt.

Why not just notice the board meeting per requirements with an agenda that includes “Election of Officers”

Work the other two directors to vote for you, or one of them, as president. And one of the other two as VP.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
redundant
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:23 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:22 PM
I believe California Corporations Code 7211 (a) (8)
See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7211

This is Colorado, NOT California
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 5:37 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:23 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:22 PM
I believe California Corporations Code 7211 (a) (8)
See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7211


This is Colorado, NOT California
Golly, do you think you could be useful and look up the Colorado corporation statute?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
From Colorado statute 7-58-823 (1):

(1) The board of directors may remove an officer at any time with or without cause.

See
https://casetext.com/statute/colorado-revised-statutes/title-7-corporations-and-associations/associations/article-58-uniform-limited-cooperative-association-act/part-8-directors-and-officers/section-7-58-823-resignation-and-removal-of-officers

Same arguments as prior post apply.

Doh JohnC77.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DebbieW7 on 12/25/2020 4:50 PM
Wow! All of you are GREAT! Thanks for your input. To answer the questions asked:
1. Yes our bylaws allow for multiple VP's
2. The bylaws say the president will preside at all board meetings. (Altho it also says the VP can take the President role when absent). The bylaws do not address if the P & VP are absent
3. The secretary has already called a special board meeting (allowed per the bylaws), so the timing and notice is all proper.
4. There will be a quorum of the board (3) at this special meeting. (There are a total of 5 board members)

Now my questions for you:
1. Can the secretary be VP, if we have a VP? The bylaws say we can have multiple VP's and it also says one person can hold two positions for any except the president. So we would have in essence 1 - President; 2 - VP's, 1 - Secretary : 1 - Treasurer, and 1 non-officer. So 5 members and 6 positions, does that make sense?

First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board. The Secretary allow can't do it. You need to make sure ALL directors were informed of the meeting. If you missed one, it is invalid.

The president can't also be Secretary. Other that, you can hold multiple positions. I have seen multiple HOA have two VP, if they have 5 or more directors. If you have only three, you don't need a VP, just designate someone to take over when the president can't preside. When I was president of my board, we would rotate between directors. They liked that.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 5:57 PM
From Colorado statute 7-58-823 (1):

(1) The board of directors may remove an officer at any time with or without cause.

See
https://casetext.com/statute/colorado-revised-statutes/title-7-corporations-and-associations/associations/article-58-uniform-limited-cooperative-association-act/part-8-directors-and-officers/section-7-58-823-resignation-and-removal-of-officers

Same arguments as prior post apply.

Doh JohnC77.

That would be really cool, having Deb citing California statues for her Colorado board.

You think?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:04 PM

That would be really cool, having Deb citing California statues for her Colorado board. You think?
Nah.

What would be un-cool is for her to take JohnC77's word on anything without checking with this forum about his reputation for mistakes and not having the smarts to own these mistakes.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM

First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.
-- You can just cite this, big boy, for Colorado. So far I do not see it. Nor do I think corporate codes across the United States generally say this. Such a provision is common for Bylaws, but not corporate codes.

Oh yeah, and I got my cite wrong. The OP should see Section 7-128-303 of Colorado's statutes:
"(4) Unless otherwise provided in the bylaws, the board of directors may remove any officer at any time with or without cause. The bylaws or the board of directors may make provisions for the removal of officers by other officers or by the voting members."

See https://casetext.com/statute/colorado-revised-statutes/title-7-corporations-and-associations/corporations-continued/nonprofit-corporations/article-128-directors-and-officers/part-3-officers/section-7-128-303-resignation-and-removal-of-officers

Yup, same arguments as before. Three's a charm, except to skunks whose user name starts with John.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Let's add this part of the Colorado nonprofit corporation statute to the OP's notice for this

Special Board Meeting:
Section 7-128-205 - Quorum and voting
"If a quorum is present when a vote is taken, the affirmative vote of a majority of directors present is the act of the board of directors unless the vote of a greater number of directors is required by articles 121 to 137 of this title or the bylaws."

See https://casetext.com/statute/colorado-revised-statutes/title-7-corporations-and-associations/corporations-continued/nonprofit-corporations/article-128-directors-and-officers/part-2-meetings-and-action-of-the-board/section-7-128-205-quorum-and-voting

JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:07 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:04 PM

That would be really cool, having Deb citing California statues for her Colorado board. You think?
Nah.

What would be un-cool is for her to take JohnC77's word on anything without checking with this forum about his reputation for mistakes and not having the smarts to own these mistakes.

You should work on your anger management.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:15 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM

Such a provision is common for Bylaws, but not corporate codes.

I am curious, since Bylaws generally outline the running of a corporation, where do you think much of the language for Bylaws come from?
DebbieW7 (Colorado)
Posts: 3
Posted:
The Secretary (our bylaws allow the Secretary to call a special board meeting) with the support of another board member called this Special Board Meeting, and gave ten days notice to all board members. We are good to go there.
This 5 member board now has 3 new members who are not willing to call an election of officers, which of course they have the power to do, as they don't want to rock the boat. But we are pretty certain, with the boycotting of the President and VP, they will work together to vote the Secretary as VP, since our bylaws allow multiple VP's. And then he can preside at the meeting and all will be legal and binding.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Come on, RBG-loving hot shot, put up or shut up. Give the forum the Colorado statute citation for this claim of yours:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM
First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.
Or else Santa is taking back that lump of coal he left in your stocking. The naughty deserve bupkis.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DebbieW7 on 12/25/2020 6:33 PM

This 5 member board now has 3 new members who are not willing to call an election of officers, which of course they have the power to do, as they don't want to rock the boat. But we are pretty certain, with the boycotting of the President and VP, they will work together to vote the Secretary as VP, since our bylaws allow multiple VP's. And then he can preside at the meeting and all will be legal and binding.
... But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight—
“Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!”

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:32 PM
I am curious, since Bylaws generally outline the running of a corporation, where do you think much of the language for Bylaws come from?
Uh uh, Little John: Off-task behavior is not allowed. Cite the Colorado statute section that says:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM

First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.


Then you get your PB n J and alcohol-free eggnog.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:35 PM
Come on, RBG-loving hot shot, put up or shut up. Give the forum the Colorado statute citation for this claim of yours:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM
First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.
Or else Santa is taking back that lump of coal he left in your stocking. The naughty deserve bupkis.

Here is a link o an HOA in Colorado, https://copperleafhoa.org/association-documents/governing/, the Bylaws state on page 6, under Special Meeting of the Board, the president or a majority of the board may call for a special meeting.

I did qualify the original statement saying GENERALLY.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:42 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:32 PM
I am curious, since Bylaws generally outline the running of a corporation, where do you think much of the language for Bylaws come from?
Uh uh, Little John: Off-task behavior is not allowed. Cite the Colorado statute section that says:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM

First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.


Then you get your PB n J and alcohol-free eggnog.

I am done with your stupid childish antics!
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 7:09 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:42 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:32 PM
I am curious, since Bylaws generally outline the running of a corporation, where do you think much of the language for Bylaws come from?
Uh uh, Little John: Off-task behavior is not allowed. Cite the Colorado statute section that says:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM

First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.


Then you get your PB n J and alcohol-free eggnog.


I am done with your stupid childish antics!

I highly doubt that.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I think Augustin’s strategy may have allowed him to prevail, again.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:53 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/25/2020 6:35 PM
Come on, RBG-loving hot shot, put up or shut up. Give the forum the Colorado statute citation for this claim of yours:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/25/2020 6:02 PM
First, Corporation Codes across the U.S. generally will say the president or two officers can call a special meeting of the board.
Or else Santa is taking back that lump of coal he left in your stocking. The naughty deserve bupkis.


Here is a link o an HOA in Colorado, https://copperleafhoa.org/association-documents/governing/, the Bylaws state on page 6, under Special Meeting of the Board, the president or a majority of the board may call for a special meeting.

I did qualify the original statement saying GENERALLY.
So the state in question (Colorado) has nothing like what you claim in its nonprofit corporate statute.
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
People...please.

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