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ShannonM4 (California)
Posts: 30
Posted:
Recently in my HOA, a proposal was put to the membership to amend the Bylaws.
The Bylaws state that a quorum of 51% of the voting membership must vote in favor of the amendment in order for it to be changed.

The HOA also put forth a proposal to change what "Quorum" meant, and it specifies that only 35% of the voting membership will need to be met in order to form a "Quorum".

The annual membership meeting originally was supposed to happen in March 2020, but a quorum of votes needed for the election of board members was not met, so it was rescheduled. It was rescheduled every month, in fact, until November of this year, due to not enough votes to meet a quorum to hold the election.

Here is what the Bylaws say about a QUORUM: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1meJfgrY_6tRfrVU6Ed0H7EbEeKE4p2qk/view?usp=sharing

Our HOA has 332 units.

In November the Board announced that a Bylaws amendment to reduce the Quorum to an initial 35% of the 332 units, passed with 64 votes.

They also announced that a Bylaws amendment that allows the Board to remove a Board member after 3 absences passed with 84 votes.

Did they do their math correctly?
It seems to me that they are thinking they can use the reduced numbers to pass the amendment asking for reduced numbers.

I can supply the new verbiage for the Quorum amendment if needed, but it seems to me that they cheated.

The reduced quorum was for the election, and voted for that... it seems to me that a Bylaws amendment would need the real number of 51% at least at first in order to pass the amendment to reduce the numbers, and that the reduced quorum for the election would not apply to a bylaws amendment that was only given to the membership in October 2020. IT seems to me they would need to have the full 167 yes votes to pass it. Instead, they said it passed with 64 yes votes.

Are they wrong or am I taking crazy pills? What can be done if they announce this, change the governing documents, etc under false pretenses?

JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
I am going out on a limb and say that either a majority of the membership or maybe 51% must vote in the affirmative to amend the Bylaws.

Quorum actually means nothing if there approval requirement for the governing documents, say 51% or 66 2/3%

Basically to amend your Bylaws you need 170 yes votes.

The reduced quorum is only used to call a meeting to order in order to conduct business. Each document will dictate to approval requirements.

Trying to reach quorum with that many members is near impossible, especially when meeting are held virtually.

Legally, none of their amendments are valid.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
This might help:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/No-Quorum
ShannonM4 (California)
Posts: 30
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/23/2020 11:39 PM
I am going out on a limb and say that either a majority of the membership or maybe 51% must vote in the affirmative to amend the Bylaws.

Quorum actually means nothing if there approval requirement for the governing documents, say 51% or 66 2/3%

Basically to amend your Bylaws you need 170 yes votes.

The reduced quorum is only used to call a meeting to order in order to conduct business. Each document will dictate to approval requirements.

Trying to reach quorum with that many members is near impossible, especially when meeting are held virtually.

Legally, none of their amendments are valid.

Thank you... so how would you approach this issue?
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Since the association's insurance company writes the D & O policy I would send the agent a copy of your Bylaws with the notice of your complaint.
ShannonM4 (California)
Posts: 30
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 12:15 AM
Since the association's insurance company writes the D & O policy I would send the agent a copy of your Bylaws with the notice of your complaint.

Ok, thank you.

Do I ask the management company for that information, and if I ask, do they have the right to ask me why I want it, or to deny me the information?
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Just ask for the HOA Accord cert. The agent's information is on the form.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ShannonM4 on 12/23/2020 11:05 PM
What can be done if they announce this, change the governing documents, etc under false pretenses?
Did you look at the davis-stirling.com site on Internal Dispute Resolution (IDR) linked in your other thread (about filling vacant board seats)? If not, why not? If you read the IDR site and did not understand it, then I think your remaining options are (1) hire an attorney to walk you through IDR; (2) put your home on the market and move.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ShannonM4 on 12/23/2020 11:05 PM

Our HOA has 332 units.

In November the Board announced that a Bylaws amendment to reduce the Quorum to an initial 35% of the 332 units, passed with 64 votes.

They also announced that a Bylaws amendment that allows the Board to remove a Board member after 3 absences passed with 84 votes.

Did they do their math correctly?

-- Whether the amendments were lawfully passed depends on what the requirement in the Bylaws is for amending. Please quote verbatim what the bylaws say about amending the bylaws.

-- Assuming one vote per unit, and for a meeting of the membership: Quorum is met, and so business may be conducted, if at least 170 members are present in person or by proxy.

-- But amendments do not necessarily require a meeting. Depending on the HOA's governing documents, it is possible a vote on proposed amendments can be done by mail or online.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are these actual By-laws or CC&R's? By-laws are typically considered INTERNAL documents to the HOA. They don't need filing at county level. CC&R's are public documents required to be filed with the county.

So I would be more concerned about following the process that required public filing.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Melissa,

Some states require Bylaws to be recorded - please be specific.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Currently, in California, amendments to the governing documents, must be by secret ballot. There is no online voting allowed.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 10:24 AM
Currently, in California, amendments to the governing documents, must be by secret ballot. There is no online voting allowed.
The following says somewhat differently, from https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Bylaw-Amendments:

"Secret Ballot. Voting must be done by secret ballot (Civ. Code ยง5100(a).) in accordance with written election rules. (Civ. Code ยง5105(a).) Unless an association's governing documents provide otherwise, balloting may done entirely through the mail, with no voting at a meeting. However, counting the ballots is still done at an open meeting so members can observe the counting process. Because voter turnout is a problem, boards can extend the voting period one or more times as-needed."
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/23/2020 11:39 PM
I am going out on a limb and say that either a majority of the membership or maybe 51% must vote in the affirmative to amend the Bylaws.

Quorum actually means nothing if there approval requirement for the governing documents, say 51% or 66 2/3%

Basically to amend your Bylaws you need 170 yes votes.

The reduced quorum is only used to call a meeting to order in order to conduct business. Each document will dictate to approval requirements.

Trying to reach quorum with that many members is near impossible, especially when meeting are held virtually.

Legally, none of their amendments are valid.

I agree but 51% of 332 is 166.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2020 10:33 AM
I agree but 51% of 332 is 166.
Math-o.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 12:15 AM
Since the association's insurance company writes the D & O policy I would send the agent a copy of your Bylaws with the notice of your complaint.
Do cite where the California Civil Code's IDR procedure instructs a complainant to contact the HOA's insurer.

It doesn't.

The OP should file a complaint with the HOA and the HOA only. She should do so pursuant strictly to the procedures her HOA provides and, in the absence of any such procedures, pursuant to the link previously provided on Internal Dispute Resolution.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2020 10:33 AM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/23/2020 11:39 PM
I am going out on a limb and say that either a majority of the membership or maybe 51% must vote in the affirmative to amend the Bylaws.

Quorum actually means nothing if there approval requirement for the governing documents, say 51% or 66 2/3%

Basically to amend your Bylaws you need 170 yes votes.

The reduced quorum is only used to call a meeting to order in order to conduct business. Each document will dictate to approval requirements.

Trying to reach quorum with that many members is near impossible, especially when meeting are held virtually.

Legally, none of their amendments are valid.


I agree but 51% of 332 is 166.

I must have a bad calculator, but when I put 332 divided by two I show 166. When I calculate 51% of 332, the trusty calculator comes back at 169.32. I am off to Office Depot to get a new calculator.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 10:50 AM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 12:15 AM
Since the association's insurance company writes the D & O policy I would send the agent a copy of your Bylaws with the notice of your complaint.
Do cite where the California Civil Code's IDR procedure instructs a complainant to contact the HOA's insurer.

It doesn't.

The OP should file a complaint with the HOA and the HOA only. She should do so pursuant strictly to the procedures her HOA provides and, in the absence of any such procedures, pursuant to the link previously provided on Internal Dispute Resolution.

You might be good at doing research, but you don't practice in the real world.

An insurer is not knowingly going to write policies to insure board members that are changing governing documents improperly. On an annual basis I have to update all board members to the insurers, as well as any changes to the governing docs and include current balance sheet and income expense statement.

The OP can read this link as it gives options in dealing with bad boards..https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Bad-Board-Recourse#axzz2f5m5wywm
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:08 AM
The OP can read this link as it gives options in dealing with bad boards..https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Bad-Board-Recourse#axzz2f5m5wywm
This link says nothing about members contacting the HOA insurer. In fact, after a member tries to bring a matter to the board's attention via comments at open meetings and letters to the board ( <--- Dumb ), it says to pursue IDR and ADR.

I think your sarcasm detracts from your points and makes your communications less effective, big boy.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
So exactly what did I post that was incorrect? Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006. There is no online voting allowed, as it never passed the state legislature.

The part you posted about boards can extend voting periods is not entirely accurate. They can IF the meeting to count the votes occurs at a Board meeting, but not so at a special meeting of the membership as the board doesn't not run that meeting, the presiding officer does, along with the members. The members present need to vote to adjourn and I have seen on a few occasions where they voted agaisnt an adjournment, thereby killing the amendment.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
So exactly what did I post that was incorrect?
Where the governing documents permit, online voting is allowed. So this is not accurate:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 10:24 AM
There is no online voting allowed.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Should have done a little more research: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E-Ballots#axzz3TtojS14B
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:27 AM
Should have done a little more research: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E-Ballots#axzz3TtojS14B
Nah. For the archives, try:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5100#axzz2CR2ljirY

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5115#axzz2CR2ljirY
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 11:40 AM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:27 AM
Should have done a little more research: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E-Ballots#axzz3TtojS14B
Nah. For the archives, try:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5100#axzz2CR2ljirY

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5115#axzz2CR2ljirY

For the life of me, I have no idea what you're posting references to.

Unlike you, I do this for a living. we conducted 46 elections this past year, 25 of our associations and 26 of other associations we don't manage. We implemented 14 new Elections Rules and updated the rest to current law and procedures.

I kinda know what I am talking about.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:00 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections

First, the OP was now running in an uncontested election. Second, you have no idea what is in their election rules, if they had any. They may allow for floor nominations and/or write-in candidates.

Lastly, you are referencing the opinion of a lawyer, not the law itself. davis-stirling.com is not the law itself, but a website (rather good one I might add) run by a legal firm primarily based in Los Angeles. One of their retired attorneys happens to be the co-author of the davis stirling act.

The lawyer who wrote the referenced opinion was subject to many laughs at the breakfasts of a local CAI Chapter over their firm's handling of the WITTENBURG v. BEACHWALK HOMEOWNERS ASSN. case. The association lost $250,000 on that case.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 4:21 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:00 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections


First, the OP was no[t] running in an uncontested election.
Ya ya; wrong thread, but same person. She was running in an uncontested election. Your cited site says ballots are required. Yet another davis-stirling site (which I linked) says not necessarily. Hence the balloting procedure you referenced is not necessarily required.

You condone the davis-stirling site when it suits your needs. You condemn it when it does not.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:28 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 4:21 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:00 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections


First, the OP was no[t] running in an uncontested election.
Ya ya; wrong thread, but same person. She was running in an uncontested election. Your cited site says ballots are required. Yet another davis-stirling site (which I linked) says not necessarily. Hence the balloting procedure you referenced is not necessarily required.

You condone the davis-stirling site when it suits your needs. You condemn it when it does not.

What the hell are you talking about? This had nothing to do about elections, this has to do with amending the Bylaws. You insist they can do online voting, and I am telling you they can't. I practice in this state, you don't. You don't even read the links you post!
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:28 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 4:21 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:00 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections


First, the OP was no[t] running in an uncontested election.
Ya ya; wrong thread, but same person. She was running in an uncontested election. Your cited site says ballots are required. Yet another davis-stirling site (which I linked) says not necessarily. Hence the balloting procedure you referenced is not necessarily required.

You condone the davis-stirling site when it suits your needs. You condemn it when it does not.

It is purely an attorney's opinion and I have every right to disagree as people should.
ShannonM4 (California)
Posts: 30
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 4:42 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:28 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 4:21 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/24/2020 4:00 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/24/2020 11:18 AM
Voting must be by secret ballot, has been since 2006.
Then again, since this election was uncontested, davis-stirling.com says boards might send out no ballots and be safe legally in doing so. See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Uncontested-Elections


First, the OP was no[t] running in an uncontested election.
Ya ya; wrong thread, but same person. She was running in an uncontested election. Your cited site says ballots are required. Yet another davis-stirling site (which I linked) says not necessarily. Hence the balloting procedure you referenced is not necessarily required.

You condone the davis-stirling site when it suits your needs. You condemn it when it does not.


What the hell are you talking about? This had nothing to do about elections, this has to do with amending the Bylaws. You insist they can do online voting, and I am telling you they can't. I practice in this state, you don't. You don't even read the links you post!

Would it help to say that the voting was done by a mailout that asked if ppl wanted to vote for or against it?
There was no voting by email.

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