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AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Real-life situation. A HOA employee complains that HOA Member John Doe is harassing her, causing the employee distress and annoyance. Declaration Covenant 41 prohibits any HOA resident from causing distress or annoyance to any other HOA resident. ("Resident" is defined to be either a HOA member, a tenant of a HOA member's unit, or a guest of either.) The Board has created Rule 16, saying no HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to anyone on the HOA grounds.

The Rules and Regs have existed for years and were properly noticed to Member John Doe and all others living at the HOA. The Board has a schedule of fines for various violations. There is no particular fine associated with causing others on the grounds "distress or annoyance."

Pursuant to Rule 16 and following proper notice, the Board fines HOA member John Doe $1300. A hearing with the Board occurs. Member John Doe presents his side. At the end, the Board votes against Member Doe. The fine of $1300 is assessed against John Doe's unit.

Per state statute and the governing documents, HOA member John Doe goes to court to remove the fine. HOA Member Doe claims that Rule 16 is based on Covenant 41. Doe then points out that Covenant 41 provides no protection for an employee alleging a HOA member caused the employee distress or annoyance. HOA member Doe notes that the HOA statute for the state also provides no protection for employees. HOA member Doe says that the HOA's remedy, for Doe's alleged harassment of an employee, lies in corporate statutes and case law. HOA member Doe goes onto say that the Board has mis-used HOA funds, since the governing documents do not authorize collection of fines without a basis in the covenants.

Do you think HOA Member Doe right?

If Doe is right, does the HOA as a corporation have a duty to protect its employees from annoyance and distress (let's say this interferes with the HOA employees ability to do her job)?

If Doe is right, and the HOA does have a duty to protect its employees, what actions could the Board take?
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
If I were the court, I would throw it out just like the SCOTUS through out the Texas's laughable case. First, there was no schedule of fines for that particular act, and was the fine "fair and reasonable"?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
My thought is the rule can't be more restrictive than the covenant therefore the rule is invalid.
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
I'd have to see more precise language in the governing documents.

The whole situation seems insane. Just tell the employee not to respond to the harasser.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Thank you, JohnC77 and JohnT38. I agree. I am passing your thoughts along to the real-life HOA member John Doe.

I welcome further thoughts by anyone.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 12:35 PM
I'd have to see more precise language in the governing documents.
Declaration Covenant #41: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to any other HOA resident."

Board-created Rule #16: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to anyone on the HOA grounds."

Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 12:35 PM
The whole situation seems insane. Just tell the employee not to respond to the harasser.
The HOA employee claims HOA member John Doe came to the employee's HOA office and harangued her (the employee) two times in two two weeks, about 30 minutes each time, accusing the HOA employee of improper conduct. The alleged haranguing ceased after warnings from the HOA attorney. The Board went ahead and voted to fine member John Doe for these two instances.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
HOA's typically do not have employees. They are just volunteers. It is the management company they hire that has the "employees". So this would be a situation where it was up to the PM to take action against employee "Doe". The HOA just has a duty to report it to the PM.

So unless this "Doe" is a direct employee of the HOA and paid from HOA funds, I don't see where other than reporting it to police or PM, need to be involved.

Former HOA President
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/13/2020 1:36 PM
HOA's typically do not have employees. They are just volunteers. It is the management company they hire that has the "employees". So this would be a situation where it was up to the PM to take action against employee "Doe". The HOA just has a duty to report it to the PM.

So unless this "Doe" is a direct employee of the HOA and paid from HOA funds, I don't see where other than reporting it to police or PM, need to be involved.

Sorry to break it to you, but there are many self managed HOA's that have direct hire employees. In addition, even if they had a General Manager employed by the management company, the HOA itself might have their own employees such as many of the country clubs in the Palm Springs area of California.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I said typically they do not have employees. For profit HOA's may have them. A non-profit which most HOA's are do not always have direct employees. So if this is a situation where it is a HOA direct employee then they need to fire that person. Most states are "At will" employment. They can fire you for not liking the color of your shoes....

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 12:36 PM
Thank you, JohnC77 and JohnT38. I agree. I am passing your thoughts along to the real-life HOA member John Doe.

I welcome further thoughts by anyone.

I'm not well as well versed in legal talk as many of you but the following may shed some light on this. Below is an excerpt followed by the link where I found it.

"A covenant is substantively invalid if it is inconsistent with the HOA’s powers as expressed in the community’s governing documents or with state statutes regulating homeowners’ associations. If a covenant purports to regulate homeowner conduct in an area in which the association does not have the power to act, the covenant is likely unenforceable."

https://www.hopb.co/blog/simply-unenforceable-hoa-covenants-and-how-they-can-go-too-far
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/13/2020 1:45 PM
there are many self managed HOA's that have direct hire employees.
This is indeed the situation here. In this instance, there is no management company. Instead there are employees.
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 12:44 PM
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 12:35 PM
I'd have to see more precise language in the governing documents.
Declaration Covenant #41: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to any other HOA resident."

Board-created Rule #16: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to anyone on the HOA grounds."

Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 12:35 PM
The whole situation seems insane. Just tell the employee not to respond to the harasser.
The HOA employee claims HOA member John Doe came to the employee's HOA office and harangued her (the employee) two times in two two weeks, about 30 minutes each time, accusing the HOA employee of improper conduct. The alleged haranguing ceased after warnings from the HOA attorney. The Board went ahead and voted to fine member John Doe for these two instances.

If we're on John Doe's side, if I were John Doe, I'd:

1. File a lawsuit against the board for breach of fiduciary duty (or something) for selective enforcement of requirements.
2. File a derivative lawsuit against the employee, on behalf of the HOA, for misconduct.

Prohibiting "annoyance" seems so vague as to be unenforceable. Couldn't John Doe then sue the board members individually for causing "annoyance" to him?

A litigator would surely find some kind of fault with this argument, but a statute that is so vague and overreaching as a HOA that bans causing "annoyance" is perhaps unenforceable, and the same unenforceability may apply to the HOA rule.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Aug

Sorry to say but if the original rule was no harassment against a fellow owner and the harassment was against an employee, not an owner, the harasser Ahole (John Doe) is correct. He did not violate any Covenant/Bylaw/Rule.

The rule should read no harassment against a fellow owner nor employee.

The fining schedule should reflect harassment fines.

Harassment against anyone on the grounds (other than fellow owners or employee) is not an HOA issue. The issue/resolution lies with the person being harassed as in call the police.

ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Why doesn't John Doe consult a lawyer?

This "rule" is one that the Board can selectively enforce to squash any opposition. If objecting to a bad employee is "annoyance", anything that the Board dislikes can be "annoyance". Ridiculous and I'd support him if he tried to overturn it.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
It is very possible the creator of the CCRs never accounted for employees or never intended for the HOA to have them.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 3:12 PM

If we're on John Doe's side, if I were John Doe, I'd:

1. File a lawsuit against the board for breach of fiduciary duty (or something) for selective enforcement of requirements.
I do not think damages (money) are possible.
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 3:12 PM
2. File a derivative lawsuit against the employee, on behalf of the HOA, for misconduct.
I believe John Doe will not be able to gather the support for a derivative lawsuit. Plus the covenants have one of those god-awful unilateral attorney fees clause. The American Rule does not apply.

Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 3:12 PM

Prohibiting "annoyance" seems so vague as to be unenforceable. Couldn't John Doe then sue the board members individually for causing "annoyance" to him?
Excellent. I will pass this along to John Doe.

A litigator would surely find some kind of fault with this argument, but a statute that is so vague and overreaching as a HOA that bans causing "annoyance" is perhaps unenforceable, and the same unenforceability may apply to the HOA rule.
By my years of reading, I agree "annoyance" and "distress" are likely ambiguous (vague?) enough to void this covenant. Or as the courts put it, the covenant is interpreted against the author, which is said to be the HOA. Meaning the HOA cannot enforce the covenant. Though I think I need to develop this a bit more. I am not sure this is bulletproof, but I am certainly mulling it over. Thank you.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/13/2020 3:13 PM
Aug

Sorry to say but if the original rule was no harassment against a fellow owner and the harassment was against an employee, not an owner, the harasser Ahole (John Doe) is correct. He did not violate any Covenant/Bylaw/Rule.

The rule should read no harassment against a fellow owner nor employee.

The fining schedule should reflect harassment fines.

Harassment against anyone on the grounds (other than fellow owners or employee) is not an HOA issue. The issue/resolution lies with the person being harassed as in call the police.

Thank you for the input and sharing your take. No apology needed. I am helping member John Doe.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/13/2020 3:43 PM
It is very possible the creator of the CCRs never accounted for employees or never intended for the HOA to have them.
I think this is a good one. However I checked the Declaration. Employees are mentioned in other places.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 3:31 PM
Why doesn't John Doe consult a lawyer?
He was until the free local pro bono sessions ceased with the pandemic.
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 3:31 PM

This "rule" is one that the Board can selectively enforce to squash any opposition. If objecting to a bad employee is "annoyance", anything that the Board dislikes can be "annoyance". Ridiculous and I'd support him if he tried to overturn it.
Great. I am incorporating this for Doe. I am wielding the tool of, "Your Honor, if you find for the HOA, then (per ChrisE8's argument above) all he-- will break loose."
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
For a derivative lawsuit, one approach would be to send a demand letter to the HOA board, demanding that it pursue claims against the employee. This is worth something only if the employee did some type of misconduct that damaged the HOA. Then John Doe can file a lawsuit on behalf of the HOA if the board doesn’t take action against the employee.

It would be kind of a mess for the HOA in that case. John Doe would need to show the employee’s misconduct, and damages caused by the misconduct, in detail.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 5:10 PM
For a derivative lawsuit, one approach would be to send a demand letter to the HOA board, demanding that it pursue claims against the employee.
Come on. Depending on the state, for one thing, a person who wants to file a derivative suit for one thing needs a certain number of members to sign on to it. For another, where I am, a derivative suit requires the group to use an attorney. In my state, these requirements are law.

The misconduct Doe accuses the employee of is to Doe and only Doe. Only through a real stretch of the imagination could the employee's conduct be construed as harming the HOA.

For the record: I am not thrilled with Doe's conduct towards the employee. But knowing what happened (which no, I am not going to share) Doe's anger is understandable. But the Board's enormous, expensive response is over the top IMO. The Board has pulled stunts like this before. They finally met an Owner who isn't putting up with it.

I hope to update the forum in a year or so.
ChrisE8
Posts: 454
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 5:44 PM
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 5:10 PM
For a derivative lawsuit, one approach would be to send a demand letter to the HOA board, demanding that it pursue claims against the employee.
Come on. Depending on the state, for one thing, a person who wants to file a derivative suit for one thing needs a certain number of members to sign on to it. For another, where I am, a derivative suit requires the group to use an attorney. In my state, these requirements are law.

The misconduct Doe accuses the employee of is to Doe and only Doe. Only through a real stretch of the imagination could the employee's conduct be construed as harming the HOA.

For the record: I am not thrilled with Doe's conduct towards the employee. But knowing what happened (which no, I am not going to share) Doe's anger is understandable. But the Board's enormous, expensive response is over the top IMO. The Board has pulled stunts like this before. They finally met an Owner who isn't putting up with it.

I hope to update the forum in a year or so.

Depending on state law and the governing documents, one owner might be able to file one. In any event, a derivative demand letter from John Doe can be sent.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisE8 on 12/13/2020 5:54 PM
Depending on state law and the governing documents, one owner might be able to file one. In any event, a derivative demand letter from John Doe can be sent.
I know the derivative law well here. As I said, Doe would have to hire an attorney and also sign people up. I know this will not happen.

Also a Board majority does not have standing to file a derivative suit. Shareholders are the ones who have standing, to sue on behalf of the corporation, when the Board refuses to stop a harm happening to the corporation.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Without seeing the covenants, hard to say who is right or wrong.

What you described is a we say, they say situation.
You didn't say there was proof of the harassment (other witness, recordings, etc.).

Based on lack of collaborating evidence, I think the Board went too far too soon.
Without knowing the nature of the harassment, I also think the monetary penalty is excessive.
The posting also gives the impression that the fine occurred prior to the hearing. If this was the case, I think there would be a procedural error and bias on part of the Board during the hearing.

You also didn't post any history to this situation. Were warning letters issued in the past?
Typically, a violation results in a warning prior to penalties.

Additionally, as others have said, the Rule 16 is purely subjective.
Makes it very difficult to determine if one was being distressed or annoyed.
I get the impression that the rule was made without legal input. If it had legal input, I would be concerned of the ability of the attorney.

In Virginia, as reinforced by court rulings, the ability to impose monetary penalties must be written in the covenants. Otherwise, the board would have exceeded their authority (as written earlier, without seeing the covenants, I can't provided an informed opinion on who is right, partially right or wrong).

When you deal with the public, you will run across the occasional jerk. That is part of life.
A business has limited options when dealing with a jerk.
Typically, they can only refuse service and have them escorted off the property.
Obviously, this is not an option for an Association.

If there were issues of potential harm, a restraining order would be more appropriate.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
-- TimB4, thank you for your thoughts.

-- I realize the input I am getting is only as good as the assumptions I am asking people to accept.

-- The fine occurred after the hearing.

-- John Doe was never before accused of any annoyance or distress to anyone.

-- An attorney helped prepare and review all rules and regulations when they were written around 2009. But I have seen this attorney make what I feel are serious mistakes in the past. This might be one of them.

-- The HOA has the legal right to fine per its governing docs and state law. It has fined people for over 15 years for, among other things, the usual use restriction type violations. It has a Schedule of Fines, but the schedule is silent about what the fine should be for a violation of Rule 16.

-- If the corporation thought the situation was serious enough, then I think it should have sought a restraining order or at least sent a threat of a restraining order. If Doe had pulled this stunt one more time, then I think a judge would grant the restraining order.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
No mention of fining associated with the circumstance.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 6:31 PM
--
-- John Doe was never before accused of any annoyance or distress to anyone.

Then, I think a warning for this 1st violation would have been appropriate with the threat/promise of a fine if it continues.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/13/2020 8:28 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 6:31 PM
--
-- John Doe was never before accused of any annoyance or distress to anyone.


Then, I think a warning for this 1st violation would have been appropriate with the threat/promise of a fine if it continues.

Thank you. Indeed, after the first incident, John Doe was not warned that a second incident would result in a fine following a hearing.

Also, correction: I read the covenants more carefully. One of the covenants in fact does prohibit creating, in so many words, a ruckus anywhere on the grounds. Granted this is vague. But it does tend to defeat my earlier argument.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Such an interesting case and what thoughtful replies.

I probably can't add anything, but here's our rule on this topic: "Corroborated report of inappropriate behavior towards staff. Immediate call to hearing." $100 potential fine. The fine would double if repeated. $1,300 seems unreasonable for a 1st violation. I agree that the lack of a fining schedule may hurt the HOA. But ours is pretty general except for what we consider serious violations where the potential fines are higher. We fine $50 for many others, which is stated in our docs. We have few violations.

We have nothing in our covenants that this elaborates or expands. We've called 2 owners to hearings over about six years on this violation. We fined them both. They each had shouted at and used inappropriate language with our manager assistant, an employee of our management company. In each case the violator's words and shouted expletives were corroborated by other staffers.

Oh, wait, we did call a 3rd person not long ago who yelled at both of our managers over a delivery misunderstanding and squabble. This was in May. After yelling at them in their offices, she purposely coughed towards one of them for about 5 feet distance. She's the only one who did apologize at the hearing, said she'd had a very bad day. She also is otherwise a very good citizen who volunteers for committees, etc. We levied the $100 fine but waived it proving no further incidents within the next 6 months.

We would not have only issued a courtesy letter as we think it's serious enough to warrant an immediate call & potential fine for the well-being of our be vendors' employees.

Does state law help the HOA employee re: a "hostile workplace environment" or such?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/14/2020 12:49 PM
Such an interesting case and what thoughtful replies.

I probably can't add anything, but here's our rule on this topic: "Corroborated report of inappropriate behavior towards staff. Immediate call to hearing." [snippage and a bit of editing to help me in the near future] We would not have only issued a courtesy letter as we think it's serious enough to warrant an immediate call & potential fine for the well-being of our be vendors' employees.
Lack of "immediacy" regarding the hearing turns out to have a big role here, as I may have hinted above.

Thank you. Your explanation of why the call to hearing is immediate makes eminent sense. It has my brain's gears turning, in a way favoring John Doe in this litigation. Ultimately I think what you wrote might also be a lesson for the HOA that may help it. (I know: The HOA wants my "help" here about as much as a fish wants a bicycle.)

I am thinking that Doe might say (in context of the hearing or trial):

"Your Honor, if the Board really wanted to protect its employees, why did it not immediately call me to a hearing? Between the second violation and the hearing, about three months elapsed. Evidence is lost (and it really was). Memories dim. Justice delayed is justice denied, and to be fair, I do mean delay denies justice for all parties involved here."

I am tempted to suggest that Member John Doe at some point firmly declare to the judge and opposing counsel, in exasperation: "This is all just ridiculous." I saw my favorite HOA attorney do this in court years ago. I thought, "Whoa! What's got into him?" Today I am not sure if this was melodrama to help the attorney's position or if it was truly off the cuff.

Quote:
we did call a 3rd person not long ago who yelled at both of our managers over a delivery misunderstanding and squabble. This was in May. After yelling at them in their offices, she purposely coughed towards one of them for about 5 feet distance.
[Augie does an imitation of Dr. Fauci's jaw hitting the ground when Fauci heard President Trump suggesting the injection of bleach.] I would be apoplectic.

Quote:
Does state law help the HOA employee re: a "hostile workplace environment" or such?
Per a lot of reading over the years, hostile workplace environment only has legal teeth when the hostility is based on race, sex, religion or one of the other protected classes. However, employees are generally so protected by statute and case law that the HOA employee could complain about almost any treatment and get cooperation from the Board. Where I am, it's said that firing an employee would be quite expensive to the HOA, starting with unemployment payments for a year. I honestly think this is what the employee is up to: Complain about inappropriate treatment in the workplace. Then, if she is fired, she can claim it's retaliation. Whether this has merit is not clear. What is clear is that the insurer will step in and settle (using a hammer clause). The employee is richer. I think the HOA has a noose around its neck.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/13/2020 11:40 AM
My thought is the rule can't be more restrictive than the covenant therefore the rule is invalid.

In this case, though, it's not more restrictive. It's a horse of a completely different color. The covenant speaks about annoying other residents. The rule speaks to annoying the employees of vendors.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our main vendor is our landscaper. He, at our direction, has told his employees that they are not to talk/respond to any owner other than saying, please talk to my supervisor. The supervisor listens and he responds that he will take it up with the BOD. As this was his first year, he came to us with everything but has learned our attitude and we/he knows who complains about what so rarely does he have to come to us anymore. We know who the ankle biters are.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 12/14/2020 2:34 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/13/2020 11:40 AM
My thought is the rule can't be more restrictive than the covenant therefore the rule is invalid.

In this case, though, it's not more restrictive. It's a horse of a completely different color. The covenant speaks about annoying other residents. The rule speaks to annoying the employees of vendors.

I don't follow you:

"Declaration Covenant 41 prohibits any HOA resident from causing distress or annoyance to any other HOA resident. ("Resident" is defined to be either a HOA member, a tenant of a HOA member's unit, or a guest of either.) The Board has created Rule 16, saying no HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to anyone on the HOA grounds."

An employee is not a member, a tenant or a guest. Rule 16 now expands the covenant to include other criteria. Isn't this more restrictive? For example, prior to rule 16 I had the right to annoy the hell out of my private contractor if he didn't make the repair I hired him/her to do. Now this contractor can call the HOA and say "John's bugging the hell out of me and I'm annoyed." Can they now fine me if the contractor was on HOA property when I annoyed them. I see this as restricting my actions. I also see it as a totally unenforceable rule sine distress and annoyance aren't defined.

Also, according to Rule 16 can I ask the board to fine themselves if they fine me and it causes me distress and I find the amount of the fine annoying? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

Just for clarification, I'm not passing judgment either way on the scenario that was laid out by the OP.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
The scope of "anyone on the grounds" is different than "a resident". The covenants say "don't harrass a resident," while the rule says, "don't harrass anyone at all on the grounds". The difference is not an expansion of the covenant to be more restrictive with respect to residents, arguably the subject of the covenant. The rule is separate and applies to people other than residents.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/13/2020 12:44 PM
Declaration Covenant #41: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to any other HOA resident."

Board-created Rule #16: "No HOA resident shall cause distress or annoyance to anyone on the HOA grounds."
I think the Rule is more restrictive than the covenant I cited.

But as I posted subsequently, and setting aside the semming vagueness of "annoy" and "disturb" for the sake of argument, I found another covenant (call it #57) that, with Covenant #41, can justify Rule #16 as legal.

JohnT38, thank you for the link to the article that discusses topics like this.

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