💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
In our association, the written rules are different than the actual enforcement, and the unwritten rules have become common knowledge among the homeowners. Only the board is privy to the written rules. For example, the written rules state one cannot park a vehicle in a visitor spot without a permit 24/7 (or it becomes subject to towing), but it is common knowledge that this area is patrolled only from 11PM to 6AM and as such, people will park their cars in the visitor spots without a permit during the day and move them into their garage or onto street parking at night. So if one has a guest during the day who asks, "will my car be towed", the resident can safely say "no" (assuming a permit is not used). But if a board member has a daytime guest who asks, "will my car be towed" (again, assuming the permit is not available), would it not be abuse of privileges to say "no" and allow them to park in visitor parking?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Paul, I remember you posted about this before. You seem to believe that written-down HOA rules should be followed. I think most feel the same way. If you feel strongly about this, then I think you should file a complaint and pursue "Internal Dispute Resolution" (IDR), as described at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Internal-Dispute-Resolution . I think you need to set aside what seems like your emotion of being frustrated and, in the IDR complaint, be clear about:

-- What the written-down rules say.

-- What the practices are.

-- Why you object to the practices.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/05/2020 9:23 AM
In our association, the written rules are different than the actual enforcement, and the unwritten rules have become common knowledge among the homeowners. Only the board is privy to the written rules. For example, the written rules state one cannot park a vehicle in a visitor spot without a permit 24/7 (or it becomes subject to towing), but it is common knowledge that this area is patrolled only from 11PM to 6AM and as such, people will park their cars in the visitor spots without a permit during the day and move them into their garage or onto street parking at night. So if one has a guest during the day who asks, "will my car be towed", the resident can safely say "no" (assuming a permit is not used). But if a board member has a daytime guest who asks, "will my car be towed" (again, assuming the permit is not available), would it not be abuse of privileges to say "no" and allow them to park in visitor parking?

What an odd question. The way I see it unwritten rules don't apply to anyone because they don't exist to begin with. Why not concentrate on the real issue which is enforcement of existing rules that really do exist?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Legally, unwritten rules are worth the paper they're written on. So they don't apply to anybody.

It sounds like you want the board to follow the governing docs and not what the directors wish they said. I agree with Augustin and John. Put your objections in writing, and pursue Internal Dispute Resolution.
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/05/2020 10:32 AM
Paul, I remember you posted about this before. You seem to believe that written-down HOA rules should be followed. I think most feel the same way. If you feel strongly about this, then I think you should file a complaint and pursue "Internal Dispute Resolution" (IDR), as described at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Internal-Dispute-Resolution . I think you need to set aside what seems like your emotion of being frustrated and, in the IDR complaint, be clear about:

-- What the written-down rules say.

-- What the practices are.

-- Why you object to the practices.

Thanks for the response. I feel that there should not be a difference between the enforcement and the rules. But in our community, there is. The board officially knows what the enforcement is, while the remainder of the homeowners also know it, but not officially - just as the 'unwritten rules'. Thus a non-board member can have a guest violate the parking rules by adhering to the unwritten rules, while knowing there will not be any repercussions. But it seems to me that it would be abuse of privileges if a board member were to violate the parking rules in that exact same manner - even though both the board member and non-board member both know the vehicle will not be cited/towed.
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 12/05/2020 11:28 AM
Legally, unwritten rules are worth the paper they're written on. So they don't apply to anybody.

It sounds like you want the board to follow the governing docs and not what the directors wish they said. I agree with Augustin and John. Put your objections in writing, and pursue Internal Dispute Resolution.

In our community, they ignore any IDR which is filed. Then if you press them on the issue, the board intimidates you with gaslighting techniques - basically trying to get you to think you are the problem.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/05/2020 12:41 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 12/05/2020 11:28 AM
Legally, unwritten rules are worth the paper they're written on. So they don't apply to anybody.

It sounds like you want the board to follow the governing docs and not what the directors wish they said. I agree with Augustin and John. Put your objections in writing, and pursue Internal Dispute Resolution.


In our community, they ignore any IDR which is filed. Then if you press them on the issue, the board intimidates you with gaslighting techniques - basically trying to get you to think you are the problem.

That's a tough situation. Are there options in California to escalate?

Sadly, owners have limited options when dealing with a bad board:

* Find some like-minded neighbors and work to get better people elected. Lots of work, and a board that is already ignoring the rules will probably do everything they can to game the election.

* Hire a lawyer. Time-consuming, expensive, and can do a lot of collateral damage to fellow neighbors who would foot the bill for any lawsuit that arises.

* Move. Less work, probably cheaper, easier on your nerves. This should always be considered unless there is something unique about your current situation that makes moving undesirable.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/05/2020 12:41 PM
In our community, they ignore any IDR which is filed. Then if you press them on the issue, the board intimidates you with gaslighting techniques - basically trying to get you to think you are the problem.
Have you submitted a request for IDR? If so, report back. If not, I suggest writing the board the following letter and mailing it registered mail, return receipt requested to the HOA's corporate registered agent:

Dear Board of Directors,

The visitor parking rules are not being enforced uniformly across the membership. It appears the guests of Directors are allowed to park 24/7 in the visitor parking spots without fear of being towed. By contrast, the guests of non-directors risk being towed. I am asking that the rule be re-written so that _________________ . Ideally towing is no longer allowed for parking in the visitor spaces. Pursuant to California Civil Code 5910 and to resolve this, I request Internal Dispute Resolution (IDR). Please be aware that Civil Code 5915(b) requires the HOA to meet with a person who requests IDR.

Sincerely.

name
address
phone
email addie

This letter is the first step to obtaining resolution of this dispute using the legal process. You indicate you want the written rules to be followed. So I hope you yourself are open to following the written rules for resolving disputes.

Else I doubt anyone here has some kind of magic to offer you to fix this.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Add to the end of the letter:

"By December 31, please provide three times and dates when a representative of the board can meet."

After December 31, post back here with the Board's response or non-response.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
I have read this a few times and for the life o me cant see the problem. I happen to manage a HOA that has limited parking and the rules state no owner can park in the visitor spots. There are emergency exceptions. Guests of an owner, whether of not they are on the board is allowed.

I have been doing this for a while and night time parking is where it is abused and therefore that is when patrols are used. If and owner parks in a visitor spot during the day time, when the spaces are not being used, I'm not going to worry. Want to take me or the board to court they were be throw out faster than Trump's stupid election pranks.

If you typed up your Augustin letter, wad it up and throw it in the trash, it is useless.

Just my humble opinion.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/05/2020 3:49 PM
I have read this a few times and for the life o me cant see the problem.
Because you did not read the OP's first post to the thread.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Apparently your board doesn’t want to pay for 24 hour patrolling and ticketing by the company it hires.

So people have figured this out and they park there when they know that the patrol trucks will not be coming through.

Is there a daytime parking problem? ( outsiders using your parking area) Is a visitors permit really necessary during the day?

I can see why there needs to be regulation from 11 PM to 6 AM and if a person didn’t have a permit tab then it should be hauled away.

When a lot of people violate a rule, the rule should be looked at. Perhaps that’s where the fault is.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/05/2020 5:01 PM
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/05/2020 3:49 PM
I have read this a few times and for the life o me cant see the problem.
Because you did not read the OP's first post to the thread.

First, for a rule to be enforceable, it has to be "fair and reasonable". I have no idea what written and unwritten is and why only the board is privy to the written rules, so I'll leave that alone. Paul complains about the cars parked during the day belonging to owners, I'll provide a solution at the end.

I have an exact situation in a property I manage with the same rule, which was put there 30 years ago by some other board. I'll do a daytime drive thru and the place is a ghost town. With 40 guest spots available and 8 paid spots there might be 6 or 7 in visitors spots. Not a problem. At night, different story. Space is at a premium, and thus the use of patrol company to monitor the situation. So, as Sue asked, is there a daytime parking problem. My guess, from experience, is NO.

So a solution, ask Paul if he would like to form a parking patrol committee of one and be judge, jury and executioner. Let him cite the vehicles and owners, write the owner(s) the required number of warning letters, call them to a hearing in front of himself and Paul can make a recommendation to the board before a fine is handed out.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I actually couldn’t read past the first sentence.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.

Well said.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/06/2020 9:34 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.


Well said.

Not only that,but I recall the OP got cited for violating the parking rule and has now griped about this unwritten rule business as well as how difficult it is to remove the warning sticker pasted on his car,saying the board didn't tell people the towing company is using some hard sticky or some such. So I have trouble taking all of this seriously.

You have a choice - file for the IDR, make your argument and see what happens, pay the fine and sin no more, or suggest the board game a long look at the rules and the use of the parking lot to see if changes should be made. But first, clean up your own mess, as it were and then push for a look at the parking lot because right now all of this sounds too self serving. Maybe that's why your board colleagues don't seem to be taking you seriously.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 12/05/2020 3:49 PM
I have read this a few times and for the life o me cant see the problem. I happen to manage a HOA that has limited parking and the rules state no owner can park in the visitor spots. There are emergency exceptions. Guests of an owner, whether of not they are on the board is allowed.

I have been doing this for a while and night time parking is where it is abused and therefore that is when patrols are used. If and owner parks in a visitor spot during the day time, when the spaces are not being used, I'm not going to worry. Want to take me or the board to court they were be throw out faster than Trump's stupid election pranks.

If you typed up your Augustin letter, wad it up and throw it in the trash, it is useless.

Just my humble opinion.

The fact the daytime use of the visitor parking is permitted while technically against the rules is the primary issue.
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.

Incorrect. It is the presence of a rule which is not enforced and is widely understood to be not enforced with many people - including board members - being in violation of it. What is the point of such a rule if they are not enforcing it?
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.

Incorrect. It is the presence of a rule which is not enforced and is widely understood to be not enforced with many people - including board members - being in violation of it. What is the point of such a rule if they are not enforcing it?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/06/2020 12:19 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.


Incorrect. It is the presence of a rule which is not enforced and is widely understood to be not enforced with many people - including board members - being in violation of it. What is the point of such a rule if they are not enforcing it?

What is the point of a rule that nobody wants except for you? Whenever possible a board should modify their rule to reflect what the community wants and needs as long as it does no harm to the HOA and is legal. You clearly have under utilized parking that people can use during the day but instead of relenting you're simply out to prove yourself right. You also mentioned once that it wasn't convenient for you to get a parking pass. It appears there is do not have the best interest of the community at heart and instead you've chosen to focus on what you want.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/06/2020 12:36 PM
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/06/2020 12:19 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.


Incorrect. It is the presence of a rule which is not enforced and is widely understood to be not enforced with many people - including board members - being in violation of it. What is the point of such a rule if they are not enforcing it?


What is the point of a rule that nobody wants except for you? Whenever possible a board should modify their rule to reflect what the community wants and needs as long as it does no harm to the HOA and is legal. You clearly have under utilized parking that people can use during the day but instead of relenting you're simply out to prove yourself right. You also mentioned once that it wasn't convenient for you to get a parking pass. It appears there is do not have the best interest of the community at heart and instead you've chosen to focus on what you want.

Well said. He is pi$$ed and wants a pound of flesh.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm not gonna look at Paul's old post, but seem to recall that it was his guest who was cited for overnight parking. Or he didn't know what to tell his guests?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Oh, this is the parking sticker poster?
PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/06/2020 12:36 PM
Posted By PaulL12 on 12/06/2020 12:19 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2020 4:24 PM
I feel the exact same way. Instead of focusing on what the real issue is the OP is more interested in flexing his/her muscle and enforcing a rule that makes no sense. The end goal should be to rewrite the rule for no nighttime parking.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and question if he or she has lost their effectiveness as a board member because of their presentation style. I base this on this post and the one that was posted for the exact same issue.


Incorrect. It is the presence of a rule which is not enforced and is widely understood to be not enforced with many people - including board members - being in violation of it. What is the point of such a rule if they are not enforcing it?


What is the point of a rule that nobody wants except for you? Whenever possible a board should modify their rule to reflect what the community wants and needs as long as it does no harm to the HOA and is legal. You clearly have under utilized parking that people can use during the day but instead of relenting you're simply out to prove yourself right. You also mentioned once that it wasn't convenient for you to get a parking pass. It appears there is do not have the best interest of the community at heart and instead you've chosen to focus on what you want.

John - I think there has been a disconnect. I would like the rules modified to reflect the enforcement. But the board doesn't want to do that. It is as if they want to retain the right to cite or tow a vehicle which is following the unwritten rules but is not following the written rules. It is my feeling that there should be no such secrets and the body of homeowners should be clearly notified in writing what the enforcement is. That way there is no guessing or gambling.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Maybe it’s like ordering at In-N-Out? Secret menu?

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here