Fence drama

Hi all, this is our first home in an HOA community. We applied for a fence using the guidelines from the HOA standards however we received the approval with some additional conditions not found in the standards. Apparently, our neighbor doesn't want us to add a fence so the developer is forcing us to double the space required in the standards between the fence and the property line. We appealed the decision with the developer, who seems to be running the show regarding the approvals and also sent him examples of other fences in the neighborhood similar to the one we requested. He acknowledged in writing that we are correct in our assessment then retaliated by modifying his prior instructions and making them even more arbitrarily restrictive. In exchange for our cooperation with his new, individual requirements he offered a "special deal" of letting us make the fence longer, which requires special permission.
What do I do next about the conditions not found in the standards? I'm planning to report him to HUD tomorrow, as I know the reason why he is discriminating. Thank you in advance.

If you are going to report the individual to HUD, then I suspect your mind is made up.

Good luck.

Otherwise, I would simply:

1) Talk to the neighbor and find out what the issue is (is there a fence on the other side of their property?).
Perhaps a compromise can be reached.

2) Wait to put up a fence and reapply when the homeowners have control of the Association (perhaps you will serve on the board).

3) Have an attorney write a letter on your behalf specifying that nothing in the request is prohibited in the covenants, there are similar fences within the development, you are not asking for anything that hasn't already been approved to others. Sometimes a letter from an attorney may open the door, sometimes, it slams them shut.

Not all fences are created equal in a HOA. Plus not getting the full story of what your really offended by. You are now living with others and have to play with other people's tastes that are not your own. So there has to be a reason the neighbor doesn't want or like the suggested fencing. Need to find out what that is so you can all make a compromise.

We had someone apply for building a fence and it matched all the "standards". They wanted it for their dogs. Here is the situation. The person lived on a corner lot. Our front doors are on the side of the homes. Behind the garage if you have one. We do NOT allow fences in front yards. They are also at an intersection with a STOP sign. They requested a 6 foot fence that started at their front door. Most people whom have fences this is the set up.

Why were they denied? 1st because they are on a corner lot it "appeared" their fence is on their "front" yard. It wasn't but at a certain angle and location of the door it read as potential front yard. 2nd issue is the STOP sign. A 6 foot fence blocks the view of that sign installed by the City. 3rd reason is that the 6 foot fence would look kind of "odd" if installed in that location. It just would stick out.

The solution? Came up with allowing the person to install a cascading wood fence. It would be 6 feet in the back and then lower down to a 4 foot section toward the front. This allowed for the owner to contain her small dogs. It did not block the view of the Stop sign. It didn't read as if it was in her front yard.

So sometimes you may want a fence that meets all the "standards" but just isn't going to work. Nobody doing anything wrong. It just doesn't work. Plus you have to understand YOU are completely 100% responsible for this fence. The HOA just provides approval. They also can require you to do maintenance/repairs if it needs it. In some cases even removing it if it becomes a safety issue. So don't think installing means HOA responsibility. It doesn't.

How long do you expect to be under declarant control? I would wait it out until the HOA is turned over and then reapply for the ARC. It does seem silly to put a fence line inside your property line, it defeats the purpose of a fence. You could always consult an attorney to send a letter to the declarant and see if that rattles their cage..

Let me clarify this; political affiliation is not protected class in my state so no, my claim is not based on the sign. The beautiful thing is that the BLM movement is not associated with any political party. I'm pretty confident in the HUD process as I'm on the other side of the process, thankfully not related to housing.

You have very good points re: the declaration and bylaw so I took your advice and called an attorney with contract dispute knowledge, as my experience is only with federal enforcement.

Federal level? Really for a local issue? Your chip on your shoulder just going to fall on your front yard in the mulch pile. A BLM sign and others do not call into allowed signage in most HOAs. Only For sale and For Rent allowed. Nothing political or movements.

Plus suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. It is not just the Developer whom you keep assigning reasons for their decisions on. Was I being wrong in denying my owner's request even though everything the asked for met standards? Was it my feelings that said no? Nope. Just because you do not get the answer you want makes anyone less or more. It is the answer no. Get over it.

Did you not read? It is in my post. It was not just me but as President it was me that worked with owner directly. Safety, appearances, and location made it look in violation.

If the proposed fence meets all the requirements of the HOA's covenants (which sometimes but not always includes Architectural Control Committee Rules and Regs), then the law is on the side of the Owner proposing the fence.

It depends again. No situation is the same. We approved or denied requests all the time for multitude of reasons. You think you deserve approval but developer does not agree. So you find a common ground to agree. He did not deny it but wants certain conditions to be met. You do not want to agree to those. Does not equal denial. Just denial of getting what you want. Welcome to adulting...

If the fence does not comply with all covenants and laws, then it does not comply with all covenants and laws. But you do not have the facts here for the OP.

This deems BLM commentary to be non-political for purposes of the Hatch Act. The Hatch Act applies generally to federal employees in the executive branch. If HOAs deemed BLM commentary and signage to be non-political, then far fewer BLM signs would be up in HOAs. This is because HOAs tend to have the right to ban most non-political signage. During election periods and under the law and covenants, HOAs are often required to permit political signage (though allowed to imposed reasonable restrictions on, say, size and placement).

Not sure where you are going with this, but by my reading, this forum favored BLM (and Blue Lives Matter) signage being allowed because these signs were considered political. Many (allied or not with BLM) feel this is better than the alternative of banning the signs.

Chatter during a pandemic at an epic surge.

RrF
How far inside your property line are they suggesting the fence be put? If you maintain a strip between a fnce and the property edge it could never be taken by Adverse Position. Do not win battles but lose the war?

RrF

All this over 6 inches. I am out of this conversation.

Yeah I figured there was more to this story if given enough time to get more details. Can already see the wheels turning when someone wants to make a federal case out of something.

You live in a HOA now. Which means you live with neighbors. Those neighbors have power to decide what they want in their HOA. One of those neighbors for whatever reason doesn't want a fence or not the way it is presented. The Developer whom is still in control has an obligation to listen to ALL parties. Hence why they are asking for some additional concessions.

Me and my former neighbor had a "fence war" of sorts. We had a chain link fence between us and dogs that barked at each other. My dogs tended to avoid that side of the yard but dogs do bark. Neighbor kept calling the police to complain. It was proven it was HIS dogs barking. Animal control lived behind us and saw first hand my dogs were NOT even outside... It was discovered that years ago he had stolen 3 feet of my property by moving the fence. A few neighbors let me know about it and he had in past demanded a survey etc...

So I installed a wood fence right next to the chain link on my side. No doubt on my property. A neighbor said she saw him come outside when he saw the stakes/poles and said "S***t Fire". Our dogs could no longer see each other as well. So he had no more reason to call the police on me.

Can't explain why your neighbor doesn't want this fence installed. Whatever those reasons are, they have to be considered in what you want. The Developer isn't necessarily picking and choosing on a Trump BLM hater whim what they approve. Others in a HOA has feed back as well.

If this issue comes down to 12 inches or less maybe there is an alternative solution. Could the developer pay to have the two lots in questioned re-surveyed and adjust each lot accordingly? I assume it would be cheaper than the cost of a lawsuit and personally I'd gladly give up the area since you can't use it anyway once the fence goes up.

Per the OP:













So, let me try to summarize:

OP wanted a fence and properly submitted application that met all guidelines and zoning requirements.
Neighbor objected.
HOA, aka Declarant, requested a six inch move of the fence from proposed plan.
OP objected.
Declarant offered to allow staking of common area and allow an additional fence in the front yard for this 6" adjustment.
OP Objected.

Per the OP, they are concerned of protecting property rights (adverse possession and prescriptive easement), they are also concerned about maintaining the property outside of the fence - as it's not wide enough to walk through to properly maintain (mow, weed, etc.).

My opinion, if someone is concerned about adverse possession and/or adverse possession, I would think they would want their fence set directly on the property line or far enough away to provide for proper maintenance. Since the covenants do not allow a fence on a property line, it would make sense to me to move the fence in enough to provide the required distance to properly maintain. My guess would be 2 to 3 feet.

We were given enough of a back story that, to me, demonstrates that the OP and the neighbor do not get along.

Being realistic, to me, it seems to be common sense to want to provide enough room for proper maintenance of one's land and of one's fence. Six inch clearance is simply not enough to do that (shame on the covenants) nor is one foot.

Now that the thread has grown and more info is known, along with the realization that one may be living in a home 5 years or more, my advice would be to rethink placement of the fence so proper maintenance can be done. Perhaps even adding a gate on that side to make access for maintenance easier. It would likely make living with the neighbor you have more enjoyable as well.

Hope this helps.

Tim

Thank you Tim for taking the time out to pull out the details. Have to take in and factor this isn't a very large lot so 6 inches is a bit magnified. It may not seem like much but in my last HOA my back yard was only 7 feet from house to retaining wall. 6 Inches of that was retaining wall.

I am not sure about how this HOA is set up but in ours, did NOT own the property around your home. It was "common area". You owned the lot and the house it sat on. So a 2 -3 foot perimeter may have been "exclusive" use of "Common Property". Meaning you installed a fence it was technically on HOA property. There would be no adverse possession issues as that property wasn't directly owned by you.

That may be something need to have defined on here if this is common area owned by the HOA or if it is actual preoperty owned by the owner. Many small yarded HOA's are set up for common lawncare provider. Which means having the property owned by the HOA as "common property" eliminates property lines. Our HOA all the front yards had to be mowed but your back yards were optional by choosing to lock your gate. Otherwise backyards were mowed as well.

I agree with you Tim on this situation. The neighbors aren't getting along most likely due to communication issues. The Developer has to respect BOTH sides. It isn't a federal case here. No denial just doesn't want to comply to the compromise.

The developer could very easily change the rules to 12 inches if you push this and then there is nothing you can do. It's developer controlled.

I actually thought you had it right for awhile, since it does seem an accurate description of the legal concept.

Also I am glad you brought it up. The concept came up in JamesJ16's recent thread, and I butchered the legal lingo on the point.

No, he'd have to respect the procedure for changing the rules. Last time it took him 3 years to remove a plant from the recommended vegetation list, so no, changing rules would be difficult.

This says it all. I am sorry you have such a hateful man poisoning innocent little kids like this with his ignorance.