HOA Election materials

SashaE1
Posts: 110

Posted:

Our HOA had two homeowners ask our PM that they wanted to inspect election materials. The PM let two of the Board members know that the company which the HOA hired to count the ballots sent him the election results and the ballots but the signed envelopes are missing. How should we document this? One of the homeowners disagrees with the count for one of the Board members. PM wants to approve the minutes with the count submitted but without the signed envelopes to confirm the election count is indeed correct, I don’t think they should be approved. Thoughts?

ChrisE8
Posts: 454

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 2:35 AM
Our HOA had two homeowners ask our PM that they wanted to inspect election materials. The PM let two of the Board members know that the company which the HOA hired to count the ballots sent him the election results and the ballots but the signed envelopes are missing. How should we document this? One of the homeowners disagrees with the count for one of the Board members. PM wants to approve the minutes with the count submitted but without the signed envelopes to confirm the election count is indeed correct, I don’t think they should be approved. Thoughts?

The PM has no business weighing in on whether or not the minutes should be approved. That's the board's job, not the PM's job.

The PM, or someone else, needs to go to the company that counted the ballots and get the company to find and send the signed envelopes. If they aren't available, I'd use another company next time and request a partial refund for this past election.

"How should we document this" in the meeting minutes? Just say that the election was held and give the results. If you think that the election wasn't properly done, then don't vote to approve the minutes, and request that a sentence stating that no signed envelopes were provided be included in the minutes.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

From prior posts, SashaE1's HOA/condo is in California. All my comments below rest on what https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Inspectors-of-Election and the links at the latter site say. Many of the links are directly to parts of the California HOA/condo statute.

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 2:35 AM
Our HOA had two homeowners ask our PM that they wanted to inspect election materials.

This is their lawful right. See especially https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Inspection-of-Election-Materials . The signed voter envelopes are supposed to have been retained as association records. See

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5200 .

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5125.

If these signed voter envelopes were not retained, in my opinion, this is a big legal deal, and the HOA/condo has good grounds to threaten, and then take as needed, legal action against the company.

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 2:35 AM
The PM let two of the Board members know that the company which the HOA hired to count the ballots sent him the election results and the ballots but the signed envelopes are missing. How should we document this?

I think the Board should send a short but quite firm letter to the company quoting California Civil Code Sections 5125 and 5200 and the HOA/condo statute in general and ask for the signed voter envelopes to be provided immediately. See what the company says. Meanwhile, in the Minutes I think the Board is on firm ground in saying that the required third party independent inspector of election has reported the results to the board, and the results are ______.

JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562

Posted:

IF, this election was in California, and held virtually during the pandemic, there were no members present where the ballots were actually being opened. Without the signed envelopes, the election can't be certified. If there is no proof the outer envelope was properly filled out, then there is no proof that legal proof that a ballot should be counted.

If all the envelopes can't produced, then the election, IMO, would need to be re-done at the expense of the company who acted as the inspector of election.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Agustin & JohnC77 are right. The new election statutes were effective in CA on 1/1/20. The reason many HOAs in Ca now hire Inspectors of Election is to make sure the HOA complies with these new stupid (in parts) statutes. A whole industry has sprung up and they are well-paid by HOAs.

Now, The firm Sasha's board hired, did not even follow the new statutes!! Sasha's Board should go after this firm as Augie suggests and, I agree with JohnC77, redo the election.

Can't recall, Sasha, are you on the Board? I think so?

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC77 on 11/26/2020 8:57 AM
IF, this election was in California, and held virtually during the pandemic, there were no members present where the ballots were actually being opened. Without the signed envelopes, the election can't be certified. If there is no proof the outer envelope was properly filled out, then there is no proof that legal proof that a ballot should be counted.

If all the envelopes can't produced, then the election, IMO, would need to be re-done at the expense of the company who acted as the inspector of election.

It is a big deal. If this happened in Florida, a request for arbitration might very well result in the DBPR ordering a new election. Whoever lost track of the signed envelopes should be responsible for all of the costs associated with a new election.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I should have added and will now with Geno. Yes the firm hired to be inspectors should be held responsible for all the costs of a new election. Without revealing the name of the firm, Sasha, can you tell us how they advertise themselves and their services? Is it "HOA Election Services," or some such?

SashaE1
Posts: 110

Posted:

Yes i’m the member at large on the Board. They advertise themselves as an independent, third-party election administration firm specializing in Homeowners Associations. Should I speak with the PM and inspect myself and see if in fact envelopes are missing? And if this is the case how do I go about taking action if the company doesn’t provide the signed envelopes?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 4:44 PM
Should I speak with the PM and inspect myself and see if in fact envelopes are missing?

Raise this question at a board meeting, or possibly by email in an "action without a meeting." If the election is in dispute, then I call this a bit of an emergency. I am betting this company actually does have the signed envelopes, on account of my belief being that these companies tend to go to a lot of trouble to make sure they are following statutes and governing documents. This requirement is hard to miss.

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 4:44 PM
And if this is the case how do I go about taking action if the company doesn’t provide the signed envelopes?

I think the ball will be in the court of the Owners who requested the election materials. If these Owners complain that the signed envelopes are missing, and the company did in fact discard the signed envelopes, post back here.

JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562

Posted:

I am afraid that the new law is not really being followed in California. The pandemic and not having in person annual meetings have screwed things up.

The two companies I used to work for didn't even try to follow the rules. They didn't have election rules either updated or in place and never mailed them to owners as required. They used their own employees as inspectors of election for associations for which they are under contract to.

Prior to the new changes in January, there were two or three HOA election companies in California. I tried to make arrangements with two of the firms for elections five months out and they were booked.

The cost for one of these companies is going to be around $1500 for a 100 unit complex, IF DONE CORRECTLY, because of ll the printing costs, and multiple mailings. Now, the association can use an owner or someone else to be an inspector, but who's going to have to do the work? The management company.

The system wasn't broken, BUT it is now.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Who hired this election company, Sasha? wasn't it the Board? Does your HOA, btw, have new election rules based on this legislation?

I don't think it's one director's business to sniff around to see if the envelopes are "really" missing. You, imo, need to work with the board on this. More tomorrow.

SashaE1
Posts: 110

Posted:

The Board hired this company at the recommendation of the PM company. We have adopted the new election rules which went in effect this year. I’m in Monterey California. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

GingerS2 (Texas)
Posts: 2

Posted:

Question please - Texas - Two of our board of directors' terms expire in 2025. If property owners show no interest in replacing them and no new nominee applications are received after providing the required notice of the terms ending, do we still have to send ballots to property owners? Our bylaws are standard and state that members "shall have been qualified and elected." We are a small neighborhood, and U.S. postal mailouts are expensive. Our bylaws state use US Mail. They do allow giving notice by email.
No one is disputing the current board, all is well.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By n/a on 11/26/2020 8:32 AM
From prior posts, SashaE1's HOA/condo is in California. All my comments below rest on what https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Inspectors-of-Election and the links at the latter site say. Many of the links are directly to parts of the California HOA/condo statute.

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 2:35 AM
Our HOA had two homeowners ask our PM that they wanted to inspect election materials.

This is their lawful right. See especially https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Inspection-of-Election-Materials . The signed voter envelopes are supposed to have been retained as association records. See

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5200 .

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5125.

If these signed voter envelopes were not retained, in my opinion, this is a big legal deal, and the HOA/condo has good grounds to threaten, and then take as needed, legal action against the company.

Quote:

Posted By SashaE1 on 11/26/2020 2:35 AM
The PM let two of the Board members know that the company which the HOA hired to count the ballots sent him the election results and the ballots but the signed envelopes are missing. How should we document this?

I think the Board should send a short but quite firm letter to the company quoting California Civil Code Sections 5125 and 5200 and the HOA/condo statute in general and ask for the signed voter envelopes to be provided immediately. See what the company says. Meanwhile, in the Minutes I think the Board is on firm ground in saying that the required third party independent inspector of election has reported the results to the board, and the results are ______.

This is another event when the Board has to get advice from the HOA legal council.

Then the Board should write their state representatives asking for the silly Davis Sterling law be repealed.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Ginger,

This is an old thread. It's best to start a new thread than reactivate an old one as your issue may be lost and posters tend to think the issue is in the first post.

To start a new thread, simply click on the "start new topic" just above and to the left of the list of topics.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GingerS2 on 09/28/2024 8:44 AM
Question please - Texas - Two of our board of directors' terms expire in 2025. If property owners show no interest in replacing them and no new nominee applications are received after providing the required notice of the terms ending, do we still have to send ballots to property owners? Our bylaws are standard and state that members "shall have been qualified and elected." We are a small neighborhood, and U.S. postal mailouts are expensive. Our bylaws state use US Mail. They do allow giving notice by email.
No one is disputing the current board, all is well.

Does you bylaws or state law require mailed ballots? If not, I would prepare ballots with the names of the existing board and write in lines. Then open the floor of the owners meeting to nominations. Your PM can qualify any nominees during the meeting. If there is no one other than existing board that wishes to stand election, a vote by acclaimation can be conducted at the meeting - at least it can in states where the legislature isn’t interfering in HOA affairs.

GingerS2 (Texas)
Posts: 2

Posted:

Thank you for the advise. This was my first post ever in/on discussion boards.Appreciate the help.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GingerS2 on 09/28/2024 8:44 AM
Question please - Texas - Two of our board of directors' terms expire in 2025. If property owners show no interest in replacing them and no new nominee applications are received after providing the required notice of the terms ending, do we still have to send ballots to property owners? Our bylaws are standard and state that members "shall have been qualified and elected." We are a small neighborhood, and U.S. postal mailouts are expensive. Our bylaws state use US Mail. They do allow giving notice by email.
No one is disputing the current board, all is well.

there are various online companies that will print and mail postcards or envelopes for about $1 per home. if your hoa is 100 homes that will only cost $100. it's hardly expensive IMHO.

vis ta vie