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RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Not sure if anyone has asked this before. Is there any process or mechanism in which the taxing jurisdiction can notify an HOA that member property owner's taxes are delinquent and heading to public auction? At present, an individual voluntarily tracks all parcels in our HOA for delinquencies. Otherwise, we have no other way of learning if a member property is headed to the auction block. Our HOA has strict screening standards and are at risk of someone buying the property and demanding to move in.

We are a resident-owned corporation in which each lot owner owns a share of the corporation.

Anyone?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Tax foreclosure is NOT a HOA responsibility. It is a PUBLIC process. There is no way they have not been given notice they owe money in Taxes. It is published in a public resource for a time period. They have been mailed to that address whether or not they live there.

The HOA has the responsibility to inform them of them being behind in HOA dues. That is all.

Former HOA President
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Melissa, I aware of what you say. I was simply hoping if it was possible for the taxing entity to also notify the HOA. It would be awkward for someone to buy at auction and then find out he does not the financial ability to live and maintain the property under the rules of the Corporation.

That is the dilemma we are trying to avoid.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/21/2020 3:09 PM
Melissa, I aware of what you say. I was simply hoping if it was possible for the taxing entity to also notify the HOA. It would be awkward for someone to buy at auction and then find out he does not the financial ability to live and maintain the property under the rules of the Corporation.

That is the dilemma we are trying to avoid.

No.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
-- Isn't the bigger issue what to do when someone buys the HOA home but does not meet your HOA's screening standards?

-- Are your HOA's screening standards published in the HOA Declaration? The significance of this is that the Declaration is likely recorded with the County. Meaning that the Declaration puts all buyers on notice of the restrictions. Meaning that I think a competent HOA attorney would say that your HOA has the right to tell a buyer that he/she cannot reside at the HOA.

-- What exactly does your HOA's Declaration say about screening people out?

-- Can you share what these standards are? In Florida yes, certain screening restrictions are allowed (though I bet they have to be authorized in the Declaration). Some discussion appears at https://www.hoaleader.com/public/Can-HOA-Screen-and-Reject-Potential-Owners-Florida-County-Says-Yes.cfm and https://www.floridahoalawyerblog.com/community-associations-rights/ and https://berlinpatten.com/hoa-buyer-approval-avoid-next-and-receive-your-rose/

-- For the sake of argument, suppose a convicted felon buys the property at a tax auction. The crime was violent and physically hurt people. The felon's rights have not been restored. Your Board's attorney says the HOA has the right to reject such a person as an owner, but it may cost the HOA a lot by way of a lawsuit to keep the felon out.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Yeah, you are right - you are at risk of an unapproved person moving in.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
A person buying into a property can pay for a title search which would show outstanding all outstanding liens and whether property taxes are current and/or delinquent.
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
I probably should explain what I am doing. My park is located in Palm Beach County, FL. About 35 years ago, it existed as an RV park. When a developer tried to buy the park, the residents chipped, got a mortgage and purchased the park. It is a resident-owned, 55+ community and there are 254 shareholders. We established pursuant to the Florida mobile home act (P.A. 723); however, we have evolved into corporation following the homes association law (P.A. 617) and the Cooperative Act (P.A. 719). Our documents are in need of updating. Our attorney told us to set aside the Declaration and Prospectus for now and to concentrate on revising our Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws. The AOI is simple but the bylaws project has taken about 15 months so far. Our original bylaws was very amateurish and we are hoping to fill in all the gaps.

That's my history and the questions I originally raised dealt with trying to solve how to know when a property is delinquent and heading to the auction block. At present we have volunteers who periodically check the Palm Beach Appraiser's tax rolls to see if anyone is in jeopardy. We are even proposing a park program wherein if someone believes they may be financially unable to pay their taxes, the Corporation would pay it on their behalf in return for a lein on the property. This is to avoid tax foreclosure by the County but ensure the Corporation gets first position on the share. I am hoping the Board goes along with this program.

I will admit that I am not an atty but just a retiree with a 35 yr. background in public administration and government writing in zoning ordinances, other laws and policies.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/21/2020 6:55 PM
I probably should explain what I am doing. My park is located in Palm Beach County, FL. About 35 years ago, it existed as an RV park. When a developer tried to buy the park, the residents chipped, got a mortgage and purchased the park. It is a resident-owned, 55+ community and there are 254 shareholders. We established pursuant to the Florida mobile home act (P.A. 723); however, we have evolved into corporation following the homes association law (P.A. 617) and the Cooperative Act (P.A. 719). Our documents are in need of updating. Our attorney told us to set aside the Declaration and Prospectus for now and to concentrate on revising our Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws. The AOI is simple but the bylaws project has taken about 15 months so far. Our original bylaws was very amateurish and we are hoping to fill in all the gaps.

That's my history and the questions I originally raised dealt with trying to solve how to know when a property is delinquent and heading to the auction block. At present we have volunteers who periodically check the Palm Beach Appraiser's tax rolls to see if anyone is in jeopardy. We are even proposing a park program wherein if someone believes they may be financially unable to pay their taxes, the Corporation would pay it on their behalf in return for a lein on the property. This is to avoid tax foreclosure by the County but ensure the Corporation gets first position on the share. I am hoping the Board goes along with this program.

I will admit that I am not an atty but just a retiree with a 35 yr. background in public administration and government writing in zoning ordinances, other laws and policies.

I think this is a horrible idea.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Most likely any homeowner would be behind in assessments too, not only just the taxes. So the problem would be revealed way before the tax issue even got published. Tax sales take months and months to come to fruition.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A HOA does NOT own the home or the condo. So what is it of their business to keep up with the Taxes on homes? A HOA should ONLY concern itself with dues collections on the property. It is the only thing they have a hand in or responsibility.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Interesting, and clever for trailer park management construct.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/21/2020 7:54 PM
A HOA does NOT own the home or the condo. So what is it of their business to keep up with the Taxes on homes? A HOA should ONLY concern itself with dues collections on the property. It is the only thing they have a hand in or responsibility.

In case you haven't read or understand, the owners owe the land on which the RV park sit on, so they actually have more of a stake than the normal HOA.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So? The HOA does not own it...Waste of tim. What HOA going to do pay them?

Former HOA President
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/21/2020 9:10 PM
So? The HOA does not own it...Waste of tim. What HOA going to do pay them?

Love you sharp legal mind. So refreshing.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC77 on 10/21/2020 8:42 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/21/2020 7:54 PM
A HOA does NOT own the home or the condo. So what is it of their business to keep up with the Taxes on homes? A HOA should ONLY concern itself with dues collections on the property. It is the only thing they have a hand in or responsibility.


In case you haven't read or understand, the owners owe the land on which the RV park sit on, so they actually have more of a stake than the normal HOA.

Not any different from a condo. So say I can't pay my taxes this year. I probably can't pay dues either. How far in the hole is the HOA going to go? Year after year. Some residents might like the idea of not paying taxes now and having that come out of their eventual estate. How is the HOA going to keep going financially with this idea? Waiting for people to die to get reimbursed.

And all in an effort to screen potential owners?
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Big difference from a condo in that the owners purchased the mortgage for the park. The owners own a share. When you leave a condo, you don't get any money from the condo, you would in this case.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You do not need to equate not paying taxes and not paying dues. Not connected to each other. Why should I care if you can not or not paying mortgage or taxes on your property if I do NOT own it?

Former HOA President
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
I should add that Palm Beach County is located in South Florida on the Atlantic side. We are in Boynton Beach which over time has become a very desirable, higher priced area for development. We get about 3=5 inquiries each year from speculators and developers about selling the park. When we tell them the park or mobile home community is "resident-owned" with 254 shareholders, and that it requires a two-thirds vote to sell, the developer/speculators back off.

Furthermore, knowing our location on South Military Trail is very desirable, we have attracted all sorts of folks seeking shareholder membership. A long time ago, we instituted screening with background checks knowing that we were becoming an "exclusive" place to live. We have even made screening tighter. Per our bylaws, the applicant has to prove he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities and has no convictions (if any) of less than five years old per our attorney.

We encourage folks to plan their "legacy" as to who to leave their mobile to. Our park has 3rd generation residents from those who initially created the corporation. That is good for continuity; however for those who have no legacy plans, we worry about who the next shareholder will be. Our park is 60% American and 40% Canadian, Sweden and Dutch. Our park is not an RV park. It is a 55+ mobile home community with incomes that can astound you. We are a mix of people with backgrounds ranging from skilled labor to professionals.

All the realtors around here know that if a purchase offer is presented, it is subject to approved screening with background check. However, anyone who purchases by county auction is not aware of this.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/22/2020 7:03 AM
A long time ago, we instituted screening with background checks knowing that we were becoming an "exclusive" place to live. We have even made screening tighter. Per our bylaws, the applicant has to prove he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities and has no convictions (if any) of less than five years old per our attorney.
...

All the realtors around here know that if a purchase offer is presented, it is subject to approved screening with background check. However, anyone who purchases by county auction is not aware of this.
Are the Bylaws recorded with the county? Declarations recorded with the county represent "legal notice" to all purchasers. This "legal notice" is powerful in the courts.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/22/2020 6:33 AM
You do not need to equate not paying taxes and not paying dues. Not connected to each other. Why should I care if you can not or not paying mortgage or taxes on your property if I do NOT own it?

I don't understand why you reply to topics you don't even read.

They are worried about who will buy it.

Nothing to be done about it, though. It's likely to happen sometime, someone who doesn't meet the qualifications is going to buy in and have a problem.

One I never thought of before, and it's interesting.

Our HOA wanted at one time to have restrictions on who we can rent to and that didn't go over.

Any restrictions we did have on who can live here were overturned by Federal Fair Housing laws.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
723.075 Homeowners’ associations.—
===
(1) In order to exercise the rights of a homeowners’ association as provided in this chapter, the mobile home owners shall form an association in compliance with this section and ss. 723.077, 723.078, and 723.079, which shall be a corporation for profit or not for profit and of which not less than two-thirds of all of the mobile home owners within the park shall have consented, in writing, to become members or shareholders.
...

The term “member” or “shareholder” means a mobile home owner who consents to be bound by the articles of incorporation, bylaws, and policies of the incorporated homeowners’ association.
====

If the Bylaws are properly recorded with the County, the signs are that Florida statutes Chapters 617, 719, 723 allow this Florida Mobile Home Park to reject a buyer, or someone who has bought at auction, as a member on grounds that the person does not meet the membership requirements as stated in the Bylaws.

I see this, by all appearances, upscale mobile home park on the net.

What is curious to me is that, despite the financial requirements, the HOA's membership is concerned someone would fail to pay their property taxes and let go of her or his property via a tax sale.

Also I am curious as to what exactly, word for word, the Bylaws require for proof that, in the words of the OP, "he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities." If the formula is not rigorous and is not similar to, say, what home lenders use, then the HOA is likely asking for a lawsuit.

Barring more information, I tend to think the OP's group is overthinking the situation.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/22/2020 7:23 AM
Any restrictions we did have on who can live here were overturned by Federal Fair Housing laws.
-- What restrictions were these?

-- Did HUD actually come after your condominium? Or was it the condo association's attorney who said that the condo association could not apply the restrictions?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So Jennifer and c77 can I know your tax and mortgage status if I buy into your HOA? How about telling all the other members? If want to know this information it is public. Just have to look for it yourself. What HOA need this information for?

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ron

I think you all are overreaching and I might go as far as to say it is racially motivated.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/22/2020 8:45 AM
Ron I think you all are overreaching and I might go as far as to say it is racially motivated.
Funny. Just a little while ago I began to suspect the same thing.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/22/2020 8:07 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/22/2020 7:23 AM
Any restrictions we did have on who can live here were overturned by Federal Fair Housing laws.
-- What restrictions were these?

-- Did HUD actually come after your condominium? Or was it the condo association's attorney who said that the condo association could not apply the restrictions?

No one under 18. A resolution was created to change the by-laws to match federal guidelines.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/22/2020 8:43 AM
So Jennifer and c77 can I know your tax and mortgage status if I buy into your HOA? How about telling all the other members? If want to know this information it is public. Just have to look for it yourself. What HOA need this information for?

It's been explained why they want to know. I am sorry if your reading comprehension is not amenable to improvement.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Want and NEED two different things. There is no Need here to know. It is ALL want. Which if want it then it is public information you can look up. HOA has no need for it. They NEED to care about dues collection only. All else is some else's need.

Former HOA President
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/22/2020 8:45 AM
Ron

I think you all are overreaching and I might go as far as to say it is racially motivated.

It's hard not to think it's racially motivated. Even if it isn't, I agree it's an over reach. This cannot logistically work out the way they'd like. Generation after generation, trying to maintain.....what exactly I am not sure.

It's extremely paranoid too. Willing to subsidize taxes in pursuit of this unattainable goal is crazy. Waiting for owners to die to recoup. Heirs do not care about their continuity. They don't want to live there and will sell to whoever offers the most money.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/22/2020 8:58 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/22/2020 8:07 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/22/2020 7:23 AM
Any restrictions we did have on who can live here were overturned by Federal Fair Housing laws.
-- What restrictions were these?

-- Did HUD actually come after your condominium? Or was it the condo association's attorney who said that the condo association could not apply the restrictions?
No one under 18. A resolution was created to change the by-laws to match federal guidelines.
Understood. Sounds like a 'discrimination on the basis of familial status' type of restriction (which as you noted, now no longer exists at your condominium). From my reading complaints of discrimination on the basis of familial status leads the way with successful discrimination complaints, right alongside complaints of discrimination based on disability and complaints of retaliation for just submitting a Fair Housing complaint.
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
I am hoping not since I am authoring the draft bylaws. We are a multi-cultural community. I am Chinese-American and we have Latino, Native American and East Indian folks here. If odd ball rednecks were a culture, I would throw that in, too. ha ha
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Maybe I should use a better word than lien. We would not wait for someone to die. It would probably be more like a loan to a shareholder to avoid tax sale, payable over a period of time. Just trying to control how the property is acquired.

I do like the suggestion about including screening and background as a condition of share ownership in the Declaration. But how would a tax sale know about that?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A HOA is Not to cover an owner's debts. It is to cover ONLY its own debts. The HOA is NOT a bank.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/22/2020 10:31 AM
Maybe I should use a better word than lien. We would not wait for someone to die. It would probably be more like a loan to a shareholder to avoid tax sale, payable over a period of time. Just trying to control how the property is acquired.

I do like the suggestion about including screening and background as a condition of share ownership in the Declaration. But how would a tax sale know about that?
The courts say that, if the Declaration/Bylaws are recorded with the County Clerk, then the buyer (at a tax sale or otherwise) has been properly legally noticed of the Declaration/Bylaws. In other words, if a buyer purchases the mobile home lot (and mobile home?), and is only 43 years old, but the Bylaws/Articles of Incorporation say only 55+ year-olds may live in the community, then I believe the buyer would be stuck with selling the home to someone who is 55+ and meets whatever other legal requirements there are for owning in the community.

Another example: Suppose a buyer has a St. Bernard dog and buys a condominium that has a covenant prohibiting dogs period. The covenant against dogs has been properly enforced for over twenty years. Can the buyer successfully sue to allow her dog at the condo? No. Why? Because the buyer had proper notice via the covenants being recorded with the County. The courts expect buyers to check the county records before buying. The main point of recording docs with the county is to put the public on notice that xyz exists.

Florida like many states also has disclosure laws. Ron, you might ask the authorities running the auction if your HOA can attach its Bylaws to the documents advertising a sale? Though if I recall correctly, tax sales are notorious for being "as is"; one buys at one's own risk. This means buying a tax sale property might result in inheriting massive debt on the property.

Before someone jumps in with "Bylaws are not usually recorded with the County... ," please go read the Florida statutes Ron referenced. Florida Mobile Home Parks tend to be governed by only (1) Articles of Incorporation; and (2) Bylaws. It appears Declarations are generally not used. It appears the statutes tend to expect the Articles and/or Bylaws to be recorded with the County.

Ron, thank you for your patience in explaining about the demographics and that the motivation as far as you are concerned is not to discriminate on the basis of race.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/22/2020 10:31 AM
Maybe I should use a better word than lien. We would not wait for someone to die. It would probably be more like a loan to a shareholder to avoid tax sale, payable over a period of time. Just trying to control how the property is acquired.

I do like the suggestion about including screening and background as a condition of share ownership in the Declaration. But how would a tax sale know about that?

What sort of scenario has this working out? Aren't these primarily retired people? If they don't have the tax money this year, how are they paying back the loan and paying next year and the next?
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
AugustineD,
Thank you for the most informative responses so far in my quest for good advice. Yes, we established in 1987 pursuant to PA 723 which explains why I cannot find any Declaration document. That said, our attorney told us that when he researched our current status in some state or county directory of mobile home parks, we were not listed. Upon inquiry, he was told the state or county division in charge of mobile home parks "released" jurisdiction over us. Hence, we may have started out under 723 but now he advises us to base our draft AOI and draft bylaws on PA 617.

One humorous comment by the attorney is that we are structured "like a country club". I thought he was joking until he explained that similar to a country club, a member has to buy a share in the club. If he is kicked out, the Corporation or the replacing member buys him out.

I will probably need to look into model Declarations for language and format. And I think your comment makes a lot of sense about how Declarations can affect the outcome of a tax auction.

Mellisa, Thanks for your comments, too. You sound like you're a strict interpretationist and don't look at creative ways to solve issues....pretty much by the book.

RonL15,
former Board Treasurer of my HOA in Boynton Beach (my winter quarters),
retired city manager/community planner from Michigan now living in Wisconsin.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/22/2020 1:30 PM
[snip] we established in 1987 pursuant to PA 723
Under Chapter 723, I believe your community would have to have been a corporation. Then in the early 1990s or so, it appears your community converted to a Limited Liability Company (LLC). As needed, go to the Florida Secretary of State site at https://dos.myflorida.com/sunbiz/search/ and search by name. You will see that your community is listed as an LLC going back to at least 1997. I am looking at Chapter 617 (pertaining to not for profit corporations). Right now I cannot tell if Chapter 617 applies to your community. If forced to bet, I would say that chapter 617 does not apply. Instead, so far I think Chapter 605 applies.

I would be contacting the Florida Secretary of State and asking for the Articles of Organization for your LLC.
[snippage]
Quote:
Posted By RonL15 on 10/22/2020 1:30 PM
Upon inquiry, he was told the state or county division in charge of mobile home parks "released" jurisdiction over us. Hence, we may have started out under 723 but now he advises us to base our draft AOI and draft bylaws on PA 617.
Ask your attorney if your community is incorporated.

Maybe your attorney is aiming to have you all convert from an LLC to a corporation? So he wants you to draft Articles of Incorporation et cetera subject to Chapter 617?

Conversion does not seem to be too big a deal. An attorney is essential, as far as I am concerned.

To say anything more that might be intelligent, I would need to hear more about what your community's articles of organization say. Maybe the Articles throw some light on which statutes govern your community. Right now, I think only Chapter 605 does.

Aside: You keep saying "PA 617" with reference to the Title XXXVI, Chapter 617 of Florida's statutes (not for profit corporations). What does "PA" stand for? (GenoS and GeorgeS21: Do you know?)
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Ron, I spoke too soon. The Florida Secretary of State site has two entities listed that have the same address, and both look like your community. One is an LLC. The other is a "foreign profit corporation." Both have 20+ years of annual reports linked. They have the same registered agent.

Now I am in way over my head.

"Oh Canada we stand on guard for thee... " That's a mighty big buffer zone between Florida and the Canadian border.
RonL15 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
AugustinD,
Sorry about the PA reference. It means Public Act and I am used to referring to state laws that way. I think in Florida they just say Florida Statutes.

When first created, the resident attorney for some reason establish Colonial Estates, Inc. as a "for profit corporation". We are presently in the process of converting to a non-profit; hence, the reference to 617. The attorney is handling the AOI but we have a Bylaws Committee working on new bylaws. My original draft was titled "The Amended and Restated....."; however, the attorney said since we are starting fresh with a new AOI, we needed use that phrase in the title.

We suspect the resident attorney, now deceased, meant well but the documents are poorly lacking in some of the most common components. No one paid attention to them until the infrastructure started to wear out. That plus a past board who over ten years would rather save $$ than replace anything. Many things have started to fail at the same time. The newer board members when I was on had skill sets more experienced with managing and capital planning and engineering. (retire city manager, retired public works director with engineering, retired IT who computerized and digitized, etc...)

One motivation for converting to non-profit is to qualify for FRWA (Florida Rural Water Association)grants. We still own our water utilities and the infrastructure is deteriorating. Our plan is to design & replace the entire water distribution system and then hook up with Boynton City Water. It was FRWA who advised us that becoming a non-profit would put us in a better position for a grant. When you run the math, it is well worth doing.

Going non-profit was always an expected change, too since as a community entity, our goal is not to make a profit but just build up an reserve for emergencies.

RonL
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Converting to non-profit makes perfect sense to me, based simply on the reality that every HOA/Condo/Co-Op of which I have heard is also a non-profit corporation.

I think my main question now is what sort of non-profit corporation (dedicated to homes) your community will be. Surely not a Florida condominium (Ch. 718). Surely not a HOA of stand-alone homes (Chapter 720). Is there a problem with making the community subject to Chapter 623 once again?

I trust the community will have to vote on changing to a non-profit corporation from whatever it is now.

As for screening to make sure buyers have sufficient means to pay the dues: I am thinking maybe the basis for such a screen could be a credit check meeting requirements your community sets. Landlords do this with prospective tenants all the time. It's legal. It seems relatively easy. Then when all is recorded with the County, and some person buys a mobile home lot at a tax auction, hopefully the existence of the covenants (on record with the county) would ensure the buyer passes the screen. If he/she does not, then since they had proper notice via the recording at the county, they are out of luck and would have to turn around and sell the lot.

1.5 cents.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/22/2020 4:10 PM
Is there a problem with making the community subject to Chapter 623 once again?
Typo. I meant Chapter 723.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/22/2020 8:05 AM
Also I am curious as to what exactly, word for word, the Bylaws require for proof that, in the words of the OP, "he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities." If the formula is not rigorous and is not similar to, say, what home lenders use, then the HOA is likely asking for a lawsuit.

Barring more information, I tend to think the OP's group is overthinking the situation.

I'd be more concerned with the "no convictions in the last 5 years" restriction. I don't think that's going to stand up to a HUD challenge. Something like that might be acceptable; but a blanket 5-year time limit is probably not.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
As Aug said:

Also I am curious as to what exactly, word for word, the Bylaws require for proof that, in the words of the OP, "he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities." If the formula is not rigorous and is not similar to, say, what home lenders use, then the HOA is likely asking for a lawsuit.

Barring more information, I tend to think the OP's group is overthinking the situation.

I agree. These homes sell for $60K to $120K. Not exactly expensive places.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/21/2020 3:20 PM
Some discussion appears at https://www.hoaleader.com/public/Can-HOA-Screen-and-Reject-Potential-Owners-Florida-County-Says-Yes.cfm and https://www.floridahoalawyerblog.com/community-associations-rights/ and https://berlinpatten.com/hoa-buyer-approval-avoid-next-and-receive-your-rose/
Per GenoS's post, the above articles are way outdated and now, irrelevant. HUD in 2016 declared that, in housing matters, blanket prohibitions against ex-convicts are "de facto discrimination." HUD has said that, in some cases, turning down an ex-convict because of the particular circumstances of her or his conviction may be legally justified.

Ron's Bylaws would have to be kind of vague about any screening requirement concerning ex-cons. Something like, "The HOA has the right to perform a criminal background check. Pursuant to Fair Housing guidelines, and depending on the nature of the conviction, the years that have passed, and other reasonable factors, the HOA has the right to deny housing ownership to felons."
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/22/2020 3:23 PM
Aside: You keep saying "PA 617" with reference to the Title XXXVI, Chapter 617 of Florida's statutes (not for profit corporations). What does "PA" stand for? (GenoS and GeorgeS21: Do you know?)

There's no common abbreviation "PA". The numbers seem to indicate reference to chapters of the Florida Statutes. Saying "FS 617" or "Chapter 617 of the Florida Statutes" would be clear. "PA" whatever is not. I'm not even sure what that is.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 10/23/2020 12:34 PM
HUD in 2016 declared that, in housing matters, blanket prohibitions against ex-convicts are "de facto discrimination." HUD has said that, in some cases, turning down an ex-convict because of the particular circumstances of her or his conviction may be legally justified.

That's exactly what I was referring to. There was an uproar of sorts over that HUD ruling.

The upshot was that denying housing to someone based strictly on an arbitrary "conviction" became unlawful. According to the HUD ruling, each case has to be considered individually and the potential for harm to the community evaluated in context. If someone was convicted of robbing a bank, let's say, and now they're back on the street a few years later, you'd be hard pressed to conclude that a former bank robber poses a threat to the other homeowners in the community, felony convicion notwithstanding.

Here's a link I bookmarked back in 2016 that seems relevant, although I don't remember making it, who these guys are, or what their business is. HUD Guidance on Criminal Record Screening.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/23/2020 12:24 PM
As Aug said:

Also I am curious as to what exactly, word for word, the Bylaws require for proof that, in the words of the OP, "he or she is able to meet all the financial responsibilities." If the formula is not rigorous and is not similar to, say, what home lenders use, then the HOA is likely asking for a lawsuit.

Barring more information, I tend to think the OP's group is overthinking the situation.

I agree. These homes sell for $60K to $120K. Not exactly expensive places.
I still think Ron's group may be overthinking this. But I also think there's a problem in understanding here. To me, it seems like the first notion that pops into many people's heads with regard to mobile home parks is 'not so nice.' But as Ron tried to indicate, this is not your typical mobile home park. The web site shows a gated community with a gorgeous clubhouse; pool; whirlpool; indoorshuffleboard courts (four); an expansive pool table room (four tables); a gorgeously landscaped lake; and lots of manicured grass on each lot. To me it's clearly designed for downsizing, empty-nester retirees 55 and up in age who want to sell their fancy two-story colonial family home outside Boston Mass and live happily off the sale proceeds in air-conditioned splendor in southern Florida summers and balmy nearly beach-side joy in the winter. The homes, while clearly falling in the "mobile" category simply look like they are not actually designed to go anywhere at this point. I am betting the monthly fees are $250+. But for the hurricanes, I'd be making an offer on one of those homes.

The mobile homes are selling for $120k to $180k at this point. Arguably this is low for a house. But these are mobile homes, for which banks will generally not offer a loan. I think this drives the prices down, at least on a per square foot basis, and vis-a-vis non-mobile homes.

Yada yada. Pandemic-weary here. Waiting for rain.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 10/23/2020 12:46 PM

That's exactly what I was referring to. There was an uproar of sorts over that HUD ruling.

The upshot was that denying housing to someone based strictly on an arbitrary "conviction" became unlawful. According to the HUD ruling, each case has to be considered individually and the potential for harm to the community evaluated in context. If someone was convicted of robbing a bank, let's say, and now they're back on the street a few years later, you'd be hard pressed to conclude that a former bank robber poses a threat to the other homeowners in the community, felony convicion notwithstanding.

Here's a link I bookmarked back in 2016 that seems relevant, although I don't remember making it, who these guys are, or what their business is. HUD Guidance on Criminal Record Screening.
I appreciate your pointing this out. I had it all wrong. I was aware of the HUD ruling but was going from memory that the ruling was not all that rigorous. Au contraire. As you pointed out, it is rigorous: A blanket prohibition like the one Ron is proposing would not fly, according to HUD.

From the net what I am seeing is not individual ex-cons bringing suit against apartments/condos/HOAs et cetera. Instead, and in the last several years, nonprofit organizations that help ex-cons transition to non-prison life have met with success to get rid of these blanket prohibitions.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I think that's right, Augie. Much as some advovates for the disabled will finance lawsuits that seek to compel compliance with the ADA, these cases do benefit the individual plaintiffs but the organization that takes up their cause and supplies them with lawyers usually have some other, larger, agenda they're pushing. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

There was an organization funded by the satellite TV industry (they used to advertise here on this site) that homeowners could use if their HOA was trying to impose restrictions on satellite dishes beyond what was permitted by the OTARD rules of the FCC. Satellite TV is dying, however, so maybe they've cut back on their advocacy, but it was the same idea. A group with a lot of clout (lawyers and money) that offered to help individuals fight things that were not fair or just.

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