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DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Our current Declarations (we do not have a separate Architectural Guidelines document) simply has one sentence regarding patios, and it only mentions the material:

"All driveways and parking areas shall have a hard, dustless surface, such as asphalt, concrete, brick, stone or such similar material as may be approved by the Architectural Board. All patio material must be concrete pavers."

We have a homeowner who just threw some bricks on the ground, directly on the grass, and called it a patio. We are able to call it a violation, for not getting ARC approval and not using the correct material. But is it worthwhile to be more descriptive regarding patios, such as describing a professional installation that includes at least six inches of gravel and sand, etc.? If so, does anyone have an example of good verbiage we could use?

TIA.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 9:23 AM
Our current Declarations (we do not have a separate Architectural Guidelines document) simply has one sentence regarding patios, and it only mentions the material:

"All driveways and parking areas shall have a hard, dustless surface, such as asphalt, concrete, brick, stone or such similar material as may be approved by the Architectural Board. All patio material must be concrete pavers."

We have a homeowner who just threw some bricks on the ground, directly on the grass, and called it a patio. We are able to call it a violation, for not getting ARC approval and not using the correct material. But is it worthwhile to be more descriptive regarding patios, such as describing a professional installation that includes at least six inches of gravel and sand, etc.?
I think the Board's or ARC's requiring "professional installation," that includes "at least six inches of gravel and sand" tends to amount to the Board/ARC unlawfully amending the covenants. The Declaration often permits a Board to create "reasonable rules and regulations" pertaining to implementing the covenants, but to me, what you describe is pushing the limit of what is reasonable.

I am inclined to say an owner can just slap down concrete pavers and be in compliance. But when said concrete pavers becomes unsightly due to, say, poor installation, the HOA can issue a violation, based in the covenants, for, say failure to maintain a nice appearance.

Others will probably post their opinions soon. Let's see if what they say changes my mind.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Thanks. Maybe you can help educate me on this. I am brand new to this, and our "HOA" is still under control of the developer. The impression I have so far is that the developer can do pretty much anything they want at this stage.

As far as amending the covenants, the only documents we have are:

* By Laws: which describe the election of HOA Board Members, meeting requirements, etc.

* Declarations: which established the community. One section of the Declarations describes what I hear people refer to as "Covenants", but the term is nowhere to be found in either document.

So is "covenants" just a generic term for whatever set of rules are in place?

Further, can't the HOA Board amend those rules? I'm confused when you say it would be "unlawful" to do that. You certainly seem more educated on this than me, so this is an honest question. I assumed the board could just have a vote and change anything. Otherwise, what would the process be?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 9:46 AM
Thanks. Maybe you can help educate me on this. I am brand new to this, and our "HOA" is still under control of the developer. The impression I have so far is that the developer can do pretty much anything they want at this stage.

As far as amending the covenants, the only documents we have are:

* By Laws: which describe the election of HOA Board Members, meeting requirements, etc.

* Declarations: which established the community. One section of the Declarations describes what I hear people refer to as "Covenants", but the term is nowhere to be found in either document.

So is "covenants" just a generic term for whatever set of rules are in place?

Further, can't the HOA Board amend those rules? I'm confused when you say it would be "unlawful" to do that. You certainly seem more educated on this than me, so this is an honest question. I assumed the board could just have a vote and change anything. Otherwise, what would the process be?


David

The Bylaws are/do as you describe. Typically Declarations, Covenants, Deed Restrictions are the same thing. Additionally there are Rules & Regulations.

Typically it takes 51% or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Bylaw Change.

Typically it takes 2/3rds or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Covenant Change.

Typically the BOD alone can make and/or change Rules & Regulations. A R&R cannot override a Covenant nor Bylaw. Many BOD's get in trouble by doing this.

While under Declarant/Developer control, the Declarant/Developer can make any changes they want within reason. Typically when under Declarant/Developer some will violate Architectural Restrictions (part of the Covenants) to make sales. They have the voting power to do so.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 9:46 AM
Thanks. Maybe you can help educate me on this. I am brand new to this, and our "HOA" is still under control of the developer. The impression I have so far is that the developer can do pretty much anything they want at this stage.

As far as amending the covenants, the only documents we have are:

* By Laws: which describe the election of HOA Board Members, meeting requirements, etc.

* Declarations: which established the community. One section of the Declarations describes what I hear people refer to as "Covenants", but the term is nowhere to be found in either document.

So is "covenants" just a generic term for whatever set of rules are in place?

Further, can't the HOA Board amend those rules? I'm confused when you say it would be "unlawful" to do that. You certainly seem more educated on this than me, so this is an honest question. I assumed the board could just have a vote and change anything. Otherwise, what would the process be?



David

The Bylaws are/do as you describe. Typically Declarations, Covenants, Deed Restrictions are the same thing. Additionally there are Rules & Regulations.

Typically it takes 51% or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Bylaw Change.

Typically it takes 2/3rds or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Covenant Change.

Typically the BOD alone can make and/or change Rules & Regulations. A R&R cannot override a Covenant nor Bylaw. Many BOD's get in trouble by doing this.

While under Declarant/Developer control, the Declarant/Developer can make any changes they want within reason. Typically when under Declarant/Developer some will violate Architectural Restrictions (part of the Covenants) to make sales. They have the voting power to do so.


Thanks! That helps a lot.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/25/2020 9:35 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 9:23 AM
Our current Declarations (we do not have a separate Architectural Guidelines document) simply has one sentence regarding patios, and it only mentions the material:

"All driveways and parking areas shall have a hard, dustless surface, such as asphalt, concrete, brick, stone or such similar material as may be approved by the Architectural Board. All patio material must be concrete pavers."

We have a homeowner who just threw some bricks on the ground, directly on the grass, and called it a patio. We are able to call it a violation, for not getting ARC approval and not using the correct material. But is it worthwhile to be more descriptive regarding patios, such as describing a professional installation that includes at least six inches of gravel and sand, etc.?
I think the Board's or ARC's requiring "professional installation," that includes "at least six inches of gravel and sand" tends to amount to the Board/ARC unlawfully amending the covenants. The Declaration often permits a Board to create "reasonable rules and regulations" pertaining to implementing the covenants, but to me, what you describe is pushing the limit of what is reasonable.

I am inclined to say an owner can just slap down concrete pavers and be in compliance. But when said concrete pavers becomes unsightly due to, say, poor installation, the HOA can issue a violation, based in the covenants, for, say failure to maintain a nice appearance.

Others will probably post their opinions soon. Let's see if what they say changes my mind.

Okay, I've read through the declarations more based on your suggestion that perhaps there is a "failure to maintain a nice appearance." I found a paragraph that says the ARC can turn down a request based on this:

"In reviewing such materials, the Architectural Board shall consider such things as aesthetic appearance, harmony with surrounding improvements,
compliance with this Declaration and any additional criteria adopted by the Architectural Board"

So I would say an owner who submits a request to throw pavers on the ground could be denied his request based on the above. Thanks for steering me there!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
David

The owner that "threw" the bricks down id not ask permission to install a patio. Send him a violation notice.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:35 AM
David

The owner that "threw" the bricks down id not ask permission to install a patio. Send him a violation notice.

Thanks.

Yes, he is definitely getting a violation. I am just trying to make sure we are in a firm position to deny that kind of request should somebody file one through the ARC. If we can do that without changing the Declarations, that will make life easier.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
To weigh in alongside JohnC46 --
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM

The Bylaws are/do as you describe.
I agree.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM

Typically Declarations, Covenants, Deed Restrictions are the same thing.
I agree. Sometimes the full name for the Declaration (as printed on the first page of the Declaration) is actually "Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions." The courts view covenants as contractual terms.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
Additionally there are Rules & Regulations.
... and Rules & Regulations are usually always created by the Board and subject to relatively easy amendment, like JohnC46 noted.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
Typically it takes 51% or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Bylaw Change.
I feel like this forum sees a lot of variation on how Bylaws may be amended. Nationwide, sometimes the governing docs give the Board the power to amend Bylaws. Sometimes it takes 2/3ds of the membership voting in the affirmative. Sometimes it takes 3/4s of the membership.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
Typically it takes 2/3rds or more of ALL OWNERS approving any Covenant Change.
Nationwide, it's almost always either 2/3rds; 3/4s; and on certain specific covenants, 100%.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM

Typically the BOD alone can make and/or change Rules & Regulations. A R&R cannot override a Covenant nor Bylaw. Many BOD's get in trouble by doing this.
Agreed. And for fun, let me toss in that Board resolutions may not necessarily be just made up on anything. I have seen governing documents that permit Board resolutions on only about half a dozen topics, period, end of discussion. I know a Board that is in deep trouble for creating a Board resolution (out of thin air) that violates Fair Housing law.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
While under Declarant/Developer control, the Declarant/Developer can make any changes they want within reason.
And the courts have had a lot to say about what "within reason" is.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 10:10 AM

Okay, I've read through the declarations more based on your suggestion that perhaps there is a "failure to maintain a nice appearance." I found a paragraph that says the ARC can turn down a request based on this:

"In reviewing such materials, the Architectural Board shall consider such things as aesthetic appearance, harmony with surrounding improvements,
compliance with this Declaration and any additional criteria adopted by the Architectural Board"

So I would say an owner who submits a request to throw pavers on the ground could be denied his request based on the above.
I am not sure a person has to submit such a request. Driveways and parking lots have to be approved. But I am not sure a person needs approval from the HOA/ARC for a patio. The patio does have to be concrete pavers.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 10:03 AM
Thanks for steering me there!
Sure thing. For what it is worth, any time a HOA member has a complaint or concern or similar, ask them to point out to you what the governing docs say on the subject. It is a start at getting everyone on the same page (sometimes literally).

From my reading, I believe architectural disputes are among the leading HOA topics that make it to appeals court decisions. An appeals court's first step usually is to read the covenants closely, just as you are attempting to do.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Also note the general hierarchy of laws when a conflicts\ between say, a Rule and Regulation and the Declaration arises:

Federal Law
State Law, including case law
Municipal Law
Declaration
Articles of Incorporation
Bylaws
Rules and Regulations
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
"But I am not sure a person needs approval from the HOA/ARC for a patio. The patio does have to be concrete pavers."

For clarity, my reading of this makes me think they do need to submit a request.

"No building, outside attached shower, fence, wall, deck, patio, bulkhead, retaining wall, swimming pool, tennis court, septic system, parking area, garage, and/or paving for driveways or garages, or other any other structure of any kind, other than those constructed by a Dealer, shall be erected, placed or altered nor shall a building peanit from the Town of Middletown for such improvement or construction for such improvement be applied for on any improved or unimproved property in the Planned Community until all fees to the Corporation have been paid and complete sets of building plans and elevations, specifications, and site plan (showing the proposed location of such building, drives and parking areas, etc.) shall have been reviewed and approved in writing by the Architectural Board."

So much of these long, convoluted sentences are difficult for my non-legal mind to comprehend. But I think that says you need ARC approval to construct a patio. That is certainly what the ARC tells everyone. And, yes, it does say "peanit", though I think it is supposed to be "permit."

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
And now, if anybody can tell me how I can delete or edit my above post to get rid of the town's name, I would greatly appreciate it.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Thank you for quoting the section that I presume is from the Declaration.
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/25/2020 12:53 PM
I think that says you need ARC approval to construct a patio.
I agree.

Once one has submitted a post, an edit by the submitter is not possible. Just post your correction in a subsequent post, or don't sweat it. If an error is egregious, a moderator often fixes the problem.

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