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Violation letters and renters

Started by LauraR5 • 28 replies • 743 views

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LauraR5 (Tennessee)
Posts: 220
Posted:
I was previously on my HOA board and decided to take a break, but I wanted to borrow your smarts for a minute. When I was on the board (with a different property management company), when we sent a violation letter, we sent it to the address of the home as well as to any additional address that might be on file for the property (e.g, if the owner lives elsewhere). I can also confirm this is how it was done when I actually rented in the community before buying.

We are having massive issues with one address in our community and we happen to know the unit is being rented out. The new property manager is telling our current board that violation letters cannot be sent to both the owner and the premises because the HOA cannot compel a renter to adhere to the rules. I told the current president that is true, but she should still send the letter as an FYI.

Personally, I think our property manager is just lazy, but i would love to hear your thoughts and/or how you handle this type of issue. Thanks.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We did same thing. Sent to BOTH addresses. Although the HOA address was #1 even if did not live there. It is also where sent registered letters but regular to other address. The law usually makes you contact the HOA address as it being the address legal action. It will be the one listed as being liened or foreclose.

So your MC is kind of full of it. You can do both and should IMO. Just cost a bit more.
Former HOA President
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/24/2020 8:54 PM
We did same thing. Sent to BOTH addresses. Although the HOA address was #1 even if did not live there. It is also where sent registered letters but regular to other address. The law usually makes you contact the HOA address as it being the address legal action. It will be the one listed as being liened or foreclose.

So your MC is kind of full of it. You can do both and should IMO. Just cost a bit more.

Would you kindly state the law?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Yeah, why would a law force one to send communication to a location other than the one in the tax assessor office data?

Huh?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Violation letters are sent to the owner of the unit. That said, I say it is a wise move to also copy the renter. What harm can it do? Some renters may correct the violation faster than an owner will.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It is NOT the renter that gets the notice. It is the HOA address. Keep in mind notices doesn't necessarily mean to a "human". It means to the PROPERTY. The actual property that is being foreclosed or liened on is the HOA address NOT where the person lives. Not sure why people can't understand this?

There was a case of foreclosure that the defense of the HOA owner was that they did not receive notice. They claim did not know their property was being foreclosed on. They claim that notices were NOT sent to them via their residence but to the HOA property address. Which is the process when serving notice. (Don't think renter signed certified letters or forwarded mail to owner).They still were foreclosed on and lost their lawsuit. Why? Because the property being foreclosed on is the HOA addressed property. Plus part of the process is that a PUBLIC notice is also given for like 3 months in a PUBLIC resource. Ours is the legals section in the newspaper that gives PUBLIC notice.

So the person could NOT claim the HOA did anything wrong when foreclosing because they did EXACTLY the proper notification process. Which is to serve notice on the ACTUAL property address in the HOA AND give PUBLIC notices. Which is why it is required to give PUBLIC notice so someone can't deny they had been proper notice.

I do not see anything wrong with serving the proper legal notice to the HOA address and a "courtesy" notice directly to the owner's living address. Just keep in mind the process is on the HOA addressed property and thus that is the legal notification is required on. Whether or not one gets the notice, the HOA still has a copy of rejected certified letters and public notices were provided.
Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Our attorney said to send the violation to the owner of the unit, with a copy to the tenant. Many/most CC&Rs say that landlords are accountable for actions of their tenants.

The association has no legal relationship with the tenant, so can't enforce the CC&Rs directly, but can require the landlord to enforce. In fact, I've seen a number of CC&Rs whose rental restriction requires a clause in the lease stating that the tenant must comply. I've also heard of some communities where repeated violations by the tenant are grounds for eviction - but your state's laws, the CC&Rs and probably the lease have to allow that.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Also forgot to mention: I've read about some states where the association is not allowed to contact the tenant for any reason, so you need to know if that's the case in your state. If you ignore something like that, the landlord can go after the HOA for "tortious interference in a contract" or some such. So be cautious.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Nah ...

Legal notice goes to the owner’s location in the tax records.

In some cases it may make sense to send a copy to the renter.

But, legal notice goes to the owner - where the owner receives communication from the tax and records system.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 09/25/2020 5:27 AM
Nah ...

Legal notice goes to the owner’s location in the tax records.

In some cases it may make sense to send a copy to the renter.

But, legal notice goes to the owner - where the owner receives communication from the tax and records system.

I agree.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 09/25/2020 5:27 AM
Nah ...

Legal notice goes to the owner’s location in the tax records.

In some cases it may make sense to send a copy to the renter.

But, legal notice goes to the owner - where the owner receives communication from the tax and records system.

Could you cite where you got that information?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Yes the tax records for that house. They are on the title for that property. So you send notifications to the title owner's name which is the HOA address. Their other properties will be under where else they live address. You can be a multiple property owner but your address of what you own will be under that property address individually.
Former HOA President
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/25/2020 10:05 AM
Yes the tax records for that house. They are on the title for that property. So you send notifications to the title owner's name which is the HOA address. Their other properties will be under where else they live address. You can be a multiple property owner but your address of what you own will be under that property address individually.

So, if the owner gave you an offsite address to send ALL HOA communication to, such as, billing statements, Annual Meeting notices, ballots, you would still send these documents to the HOA address. If I were to send a document to lien one's property, and by law I had to have it delivered via registered mail, I am quite sure the tenant is legally allowed to sign on behalf of their landlord.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Legal notices go to legal addresses. Which is the HOA address of that owner. That is the address and deed that is used to make you a member of the HOA. Any other address is NOT a HOA member address.
Not sure what hard to comprehend here. The HOA deals with HOA address and members. If you live somewhere else so be it. It does not mean HOA property is not 1st and foremost. You can request to have things sent to your address. Does not mean that the HOA does not also have a duty to address legal issues to your HOA property address.
Former HOA President
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
My question regarding this matter is how many Homeowner/Landlord actually send the lease information to the Property Manager when they rent out their home? If the PMC sends a violation letter was sent and addressed to the Owner it is not something that the tenant should care about. They may choose to ignore or discard that letter. Many absentee owners use single family MCs to do the leg work and the name on the letter may mean nothing to the renter.

The renters I have seen over the last 10 years are very uninvolved in HOA rules are regulations as long as they get access to the Amenities.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Only the owner has a legal contract with the association. The renter does not.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/25/2020 10:41 AM
My question regarding this matter is how many Homeowner/Landlord actually send the lease information to the Property Manager when they rent out their home? If the PMC sends a violation letter was sent and addressed to the Owner it is not something that the tenant should care about. They may choose to ignore or discard that letter. Many absentee owners use single family MCs to do the leg work and the name on the letter may mean nothing to the renter.

The renters I have seen over the last 10 years are very uninvolved in HOA rules are regulations as long as they get access to the Amenities.

In SC we can go online to county property tax records. The tax records show the owner and the owners address. When in doubt, we send any correspondence to the person that shows up on the county tax records for that property.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
John,
So how does it get to the renter? Does it just get sent as a piece of spam mail the no name? That stuff hardly ever gets read.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/25/2020 11:24 AM
John,
So how does it get to the renter? Does it just get sent as a piece of spam mail the no name? That stuff hardly ever gets read.

Although I think sending a copy to the renter is a good idea, we do not. We only mail to owners.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/25/2020 10:39 AM
Legal notices go to legal addresses. Which is the HOA address of that owner. That is the address and deed that is used to make you a member of the HOA. Any other address is NOT a HOA member address.
Not sure what hard to comprehend here. The HOA deals with HOA address and members. If you live somewhere else so be it. It does not mean HOA property is not 1st and foremost. You can request to have things sent to your address. Does not mean that the HOA does not also have a duty to address legal issues to your HOA property address.

Where do you get this stuff, or do you just make it up as you go?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/25/2020 11:51 AM
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/25/2020 11:24 AM
John,
So how does it get to the renter? Does it just get sent as a piece of spam mail the no name? That stuff hardly ever gets read.


Although I think sending a copy to the renter is a good idea, we do not. We only mail to owners.

ADD ON

While our owners are suppose to have their renters sign for a copy of our Covenants/Bylaws and notify the MC of the renter's name, few, if any, do. So we really do not know how many renters we have. I know some owners have their adult child living in the house and in one case the father of the owner lives in the house his daughter owns.

We guesstimate we have 7 to 10% rentals.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
When an appraiser calls after they have done their appraisal, the three questions they ask, how many units, any pending litigation, and how many off-sire mailing addresses.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
John,

Nah - can't cite.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Johnc77 when they how many off-site addresses they mean how many rentals? Does not mean how one contacts them. Plus people if you look for tax info on the HOA property it is going to be the HOA address. You do not put address your living at on those tax records. They are attached to the land or deed.
Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Owners having off-site addresses do not necessarily mean their HOA property is a rental.
About 11-12% of our 200+ condo units have addresses elsewhere but use our condos as their 2nd (or 3 or 4th) home.

We do have about 22% rentals and the landlords or their managers do keep our PM up to date on the renters' contact info, etc.

Since typical violations here are loud ppl on balconies too late, the occupants always are phoned by security to "take it aside." Courtesy letters, etc., are sent to the address the owner has provided to the PM.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
To clarify... Liens/Foreclosures are done to PROPERTY. Legal address is the HOA Address. The NAME/PERSON attached to it may have a different "living" address. You can find that name via Tax records by using the HOA address/Lot #. It does NOT give you their "living" address. Just the OWNER name on the HOA property. Which is what makes them a HOA member.

Serving LEGAL action of Lien/Foreclosure one needs to prove in court that a Certified letter was sent to the HOA address. (Not address on record). If it is NOT opened, then this shows as proof notification was given properly and ignored. You WANT that Unopen Certified letter as proof of notice. Do NOT open them!!! It is PROOF! If it is signed by someone/anyone, then you can PROVE it was signed for and by whom. Whether or not it is owner/renter as long as it is signed.

Now "Living" address yes does play a role. The HOA can send the SAME notices to that address on record. It would be an additional "courtesy" notice. It may provide additional proof of attempts of contact. You can't guarantee the address on record is correct/accurate. You can the HOA address.

Also part of the Lien/foreclosure process is giving PUBLIC notice. So even if the person doesn't respond to ALL the letters sent to them, PUBLIC notice overrides. It's like if you wanted to divorce someone but can't find them. You put a public ad announcing your intention of divorce. No response, then you can divorce without having the other party present.

This is why I always say send legal notices to the HOA address 1st and foremost. It offers the most proof. People can argue they were not given notice etc... The court will be like "The HOA sent it to your address of the property you own. You are responsible for that property. Which includes paying it's dues and/or maintenance".

Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Simply send notices to the HOA address 1st and foremost. Send other or additional notices to the address on record. If the owner chooses to ignore it all, then that is on them. Why do you care?
Former HOA President
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
We often give the advice on this website that we should not contact the tenant, but instead always go through the owner. Sorry, but as a general statement that is often incorrect advice.

Consider this statement from a California law firm:
" CC&Rs will sometimes have a broad statement that the document is binding upon "each member, tenant, resident, and occupant" and each has a duty to follow the association’s governing documents. If so, penalties may be levied against tenants as well as owners for rules violations."

I think this statement applies to many states. My docs have such a statement.

Many states now have state laws that allow an association to deal directly with tenants in their communities. For example: Michigan (Condominium), Virginia, Connecticut, Nevada, Hawaii, Texas (Condominium), Florida (condominium), Illinois (Condominium), to name a few that have laws regarding enforcement on tenants.

That said, it is often easier to deal with the owner, but in many cases it's not the only way as we often say here.
FloridaC1 (Florida)
Posts: 27
Posted:
In Florida, violation letters should be sent to the address of record. On a recent closing on a home with numerous violations resulting in high fines, the owner was able to settle the fines because the violation letters were sent to the address of the HOA parcel and not to the address of the out of state owner. The home was a rental. The owner said he never received any violations until later in the game when he updated his address to reflect an out of state address. It is extremely important for the Association manager to save the violations either in a property management software program as well as digitally. If an HOA wants to follow best practices there must be best procedures both by the Board and by the manager.

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