HOA Paying for Individual Asbestos Ceiling Removal

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

HOA is currently paying for the repair and replacement of unit roof beam support structures, which they own.. This requires gaining access to this area by removing the ceiling. The CC&Rs indicate the boundaries of each unit is the interior of all the unfinished walls. Some units have asbestos (popcorn) ceilings and the HOA is paying to have the asbestos in these units removed instead of billing each individual unit for that expense. Is the asbestos (popcorn) part of an unfinished wall, which the HOA then owns and the paint is individually owned?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

In my opinion, and as I understand it, the popcorn could have stayed in place until it was disturbed. The disturbance required the removal of all asbestos.

Per your posting, the HOA needed to gain access through the ceiling.
Because the HOA would have damaged the ceiling to gain access, the HOA would also have to repair the damage they caused.

Unfortunately, asbestos was discovered.
To properly gain access, the asbestos had to be removed.
Hence, the Association, in my opinion, did the proper thing and paid to remove it (as I doubt the work could have legally continued without removing the asbestos)

Keep in mind, if it wasn't for the work being done, the asbestos could have technically stayed until it had to be disturbed.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Going to ask a dumb question just for clarity. Was asbestos actually found or is it assumed because it's a pop-corn ceiling? Plus Tim is right. Asbestos is okay as long as it is sealed. Which is typically paint. Plus "popcorn" part doesn't have to require the tile/ceiling to be removed. The popcorn can be removed by water and scraping off. So it sounds like if asbestos was found it's NOT in the popcorn but most likely the tile it's attached to.

Asbestos is put on beams for fire proofing purposes as well in some older structures. It is one of the reason the buildings collapsed on 9/11. It heated up and weakened the beams. However, it being inside the wall/ceiling doesn't mean one is exposed to it or a danger. Unless your replacing the beam. Which is a HUGE project only to be taken on by professionals.

So why are they messing with the beams or ceiling on this unit? If it's the owner's attempt to remodel something, then I say it's more on the owner than the HOA. If it's some other reason of avoiding some kind of long shot "lawsuit" because asbestos exist then I would question that.

Asbestos exists and causes no harm in many situations. Jumping to conclusions it has to be replaced opens up a whole bag of worms.

Former HOA President

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

HOA or COA?

Real situation?

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 09/07/2020 3:32 AM
In my opinion, and as I understand it, the popcorn could have stayed in place until it was disturbed. The disturbance required the removal of all asbestos.

Per your posting, the HOA needed to gain access through the ceiling.
Because the HOA would have damaged the ceiling to gain access, the HOA would also have to repair the damage they caused.

Unfortunately, asbestos was discovered.
To properly gain access, the asbestos had to be removed.
Hence, the Association, in my opinion, did the proper thing and paid to remove it (as I doubt the work could have legally continued without removing the asbestos)

Keep in mind, if it wasn't for the work being done, the asbestos could have technically stayed until it had to be disturbed.

Correct. Some owners In the past paid on their own to have asbestos removed from ceilings for cosmetic reasons. Since a lot of units still have asbestos ceilings, the removal of asbestos is a costly part of the project that all owners are subsidizing and I question whether the HOA owns the asbestos part of the ceiling or not.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I still want to know how it has been determined the ceiling was asbestos? How old is the building? Popcorn on a ceiling does not equal asbestos.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/07/2020 12:45 PM
I still want to know how it has been determined the ceiling was asbestos? How old is the building? Popcorn on a ceiling does not equal asbestos.

I agree.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

NpB

Help me understand a bit better:

1. What makes your association believe they have to remove the asbestos from the roof beams?

2. I am assuming the only way they can get to the roof beams is by removing the ceiling of a unit. Am I correct?

3. Is ceiling removal necessary throughout the entire unit?

4. What makes your association think the existing popcorn ceilings contain asbestos?

5. When you say unit, is each unit a standalone home? If not, what are they?

Thanks

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 09/07/2020 11:39 AM

Posted By TimB4 on 09/07/2020 3:32 AM

Keep in mind, if it wasn't for the work being done, the asbestos could have technically stayed until it had to be disturbed.

Correct. Some owners In the past paid on their own to have asbestos removed from ceilings for cosmetic reasons. Since a lot of units still have asbestos ceilings, the removal of asbestos is a costly part of the project that all owners are subsidizing and I question whether the HOA owns the asbestos part of the ceiling or not.

The HOA does not own the asbestos part of the ceiling.
The HOA did cause damage to the ceiling to affect repairs.
Hence, the HOA is responsible to repair the ceiling.

Some paid to have asbestos removed because they were concerned of the exposure (prior to any work being done by the Association).

Some will likely have to pay to have the asbestos removed prior to selling, as the Association doesn't need to gain access through their units.

Some are having asbestos removed by the Association because the Association needs to gain access to do repairs and the removal is a requirement to have the repairs done.

That's life.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Still have not seen an answer on how it has been confirmed there is asbestos in the ceiling tile and/or popcorn. How is it determined to be asbestos? Plus it being on a beam is not causing any issues that necessitates removal if beam is not exposed. Plus it is put on there for fire prevention issues.

So why can not NPS answer the question of how asbestos was determined and confirmed?

Former HOA President

SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310

Posted:

To answer your question I believe the unit owner owns the popcorn because it is the finish product applied to the ceiling. With that said I think it is the HOA's expense because they are they ones that want it removed.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/07/2020 1:30 PM
NpB

Help me understand a bit better:

1. What makes your association believe they have to remove the asbestos from the roof beams?

2. I am assuming the only way they can get to the roof beams is by removing the ceiling of a unit. Am I correct?

3. Is ceiling removal necessary throughout the entire unit?

4. What makes your association think the existing popcorn ceilings contain asbestos?

5. When you say unit, is each unit a standalone home? If not, what are they?

Thanks

1) HOA mentions that governmental regulations requires asbestos be abated prior to renovation work.

2) Correct.

3) Yes.

4) It is well known that asbestos was used in "popcorn" ceilings throughout the complex. Every unit has it, unless it has already been removed by an owner for cosmetic reason in the past at their own expense.

5) Each unit is connected to another (shares common wall/walls).

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SamE2 on 09/08/2020 5:14 AM
To answer your question I believe the unit owner owns the popcorn because it is the finish product applied to the ceiling. With that said I think it is the HOA's expense because they are they ones that want it removed.

So an "unfinished" ceiling did not contain "popcorn"? It was applied by the builder just like paint was to an unfinished wall for cosmetic reasons?

SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310

Posted:

Yes, it was the finish product that was used. Our condo is from 1985 and our popcorn did not have asbestos but it was applied to sheetrock as a finish product. Asbestos could have been used in popcorn ceiling from 1945 to 1980.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

NbP

What led you to believe the asbestos covered beams had to have the asbestos removed? Seems to me that if undisturbed, then asbestos is safe.

Have you had the presently installed popcorn ceilings tested for asbestos?

Thanks

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Agree with John, Sam, and Tim.

I still don't see any proof that the "popcorn" has asbestos. Some of this seems like "ASSUMED" knowledge than actual fact. It's like lead paint was used till around 1979. So homes built before that we have to sign a form giving notice lead paint could exist. Doesn't mean have to remove the lead paint. You can paint over it. It is when you have to expose it, that is when you have to hire the "professionals".

Asbestos can be found in many things. Did you know it is in old linoleum? Had some when replacing the floor. I could lay the new floor over it no problem. Removing it, then had to bag it properly and wear equipment etc...

Popcorn ceiling is basically drywall mud sprayed on the ceiling to give it texture. Asbestos was used in ceiling tile for heat and maybe sound purposes. So I don't think it's the "popcorn" that has the asbestos in it. It's most likely the actual tile it has been sprayed on.

Plus asbestos on a structural beam don't think should be removed. It is there because of it's heat disbursement properties. So I would not go messing with this just because it's "asbestos".

It's basically time to consult a professional on this before would have done any of these projects. Your HOA sounds like it's going on ASSUMED knowledge not REAL knowledge.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

We have to look at NbP's in several ways/steps:

1. It was decided the beams needed the asbestos removed. Not sure I agree with this. I am under the impression that as there is no human contact with them, they could have been left alone.

2. As the beam "work" required going thru the ceilings in units, I believe the association should replace the ceilings.

3. Then the 3rd thing reared its head. Did the popcorn ceilings contain asbestos? If ss, more expensive to remediate versus just replace.

I believe the basis of all this, #1 above, could be bogus and the rest is just more $hit piled on.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

NpB,

Real or hypothetical?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Some info (if anyone is interested):

Popcorn ceiling removal can pose health risks from Boulder City Review

Asbestos in Popcorn Ceilings from the Mesothelioma Justice Network

All You Need to Know About Popcorn Ceilings from Bob Vila

Lung cancer from asbestos textured ceilings: a case study from US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Thanks for posting that Tim. I watch Bob Villa... LOL! This whole situation NP is talking about with asbestos just doesn't add up. Sounds more like people who don't know a thing about Asbestos making decisions and demands. Still do not know why the HOA would involve itself in this situation if it's an individual unit whom is doing the work. Don't see why the beam needs asbestos removed nor the popcorn ceiling. Especially when not tested or being removed by experts.

I would need more reason and details before I'd spend a dime of the HOA's money. We went through something similar with our siding being recalled. Turns out we were built around the cut off period where it was bad or okay. It was up to the individual to follow through with the recall repairs not the HOA.

Former HOA President

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2020 3:24 PM
Agree with John, Sam, and Tim.

I still don't see any proof that the "popcorn" has asbestos. Some of this seems like "ASSUMED" knowledge than actual fact. It's like lead paint was used till around 1979. So homes built before that we have to sign a form giving notice lead paint could exist. Doesn't mean have to remove the lead paint. You can paint over it. It is when you have to expose it, that is when you have to hire the "professionals".

Asbestos can be found in many things. Did you know it is in old linoleum? Had some when replacing the floor. I could lay the new floor over it no problem. Removing it, then had to bag it properly and wear equipment etc...

Popcorn ceiling is basically drywall mud sprayed on the ceiling to give it texture. Asbestos was used in ceiling tile for heat and maybe sound purposes. So I don't think it's the "popcorn" that has the asbestos in it. It's most likely the actual tile it has been sprayed on.

Plus asbestos on a structural beam don't think should be removed. It is there because of it's heat disbursement properties. So I would not go messing with this just because it's "asbestos".

It's basically time to consult a professional on this before would have done any of these projects. Your HOA sounds like it's going on ASSUMED knowledge not REAL knowledge.

The "popcorn" has asbestos because the HOA is paying an asbestos abatement company approximately $91,000 for asbestos removal as part of this project.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/08/2020 11:37 AM
NbP

What led you to believe the asbestos covered beams had to have the asbestos removed? Seems to me that if undisturbed, then asbestos is safe.

Have you had the presently installed popcorn ceilings tested for asbestos?

Thanks

From the HOA.

"The HOA will be performing asbestos testing in your unit in the next few weeks. An HOA contractor will take a small paint sample from your ceiling. This is required by Arizona law. Many of the construction materials used during the 1970s contained asbestos. Asbestos is found throughout the community in the popcorn ceilings. If asbestos is found in your unit, it must be abated by the contractor prior to the start of the work."

This was months ago. Of the units that needed structural repair, I don't know how many had popcorn ceilings that tested positive for asbestos. I do know that the HOA did spend approximately $91,000 on asbestos abatement as part of this project, so either a lot of units had popcorn ceilings or each unit that had popcorn ceilings cost a lot of $$ for asbestos abatement.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2020 3:24 PM
Agree with John, Sam, and Tim.

I still don't see any proof that the "popcorn" has asbestos. Some of this seems like "ASSUMED" knowledge than actual fact. It's like lead paint was used till around 1979. So homes built before that we have to sign a form giving notice lead paint could exist. Doesn't mean have to remove the lead paint. You can paint over it. It is when you have to expose it, that is when you have to hire the "professionals".

Asbestos can be found in many things. Did you know it is in old linoleum? Had some when replacing the floor. I could lay the new floor over it no problem. Removing it, then had to bag it properly and wear equipment etc...

Popcorn ceiling is basically drywall mud sprayed on the ceiling to give it texture. Asbestos was used in ceiling tile for heat and maybe sound purposes. So I don't think it's the "popcorn" that has the asbestos in it. It's most likely the actual tile it has been sprayed on.

Plus asbestos on a structural beam don't think should be removed. It is there because of it's heat disbursement properties. So I would not go messing with this just because it's "asbestos".

It's basically time to consult a professional on this before would have done any of these projects. Your HOA sounds like it's going on ASSUMED knowledge not REAL knowledge.

Thank you for the explanation. The outstanding question is whether the "popcorn" part of the ceiling is an unfinished or finished wall?

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 09/09/2020 10:23 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2020 3:24 PM
Agree with John, Sam, and Tim.......

Thank you for the explanation. The outstanding question is whether the "popcorn" part of the ceiling is an unfinished or finished wall?

Sam answered this question.

According the wikipedia:
"A Popcorn Ceiling (slang), also known as a stipple ceiling, a stucco ceiling or formally an acoustic ceiling, is a ceiling with a certain spray-on or paint-on treatment."

The popcorn is added to the unfinished ceiling as a finish (for decorative and/or sound properties). The unfinished ceiling without the popcorn is the actual boundary of the unit. The popcorn is inside the boundary of the unit and so it belongs to the owner.

As Tim and others indicated, it doesn't matter, since the association has to pay to remove it to get to the beams that need work, so it becomes an association expense. The expense of removing the popcorn should not be billed to the unit owner. Your documents should have a statement to this effect, but even if they don't, it's just not an owner expense.

By the way, in a condominium, the HOA (COA) does not own the common elements. Each owner owns an undivided share of the common elements, and collectively all the owners own the common elements (through the legal structure of the condominium). The association just represents the owners and is responsible to maintain the common elements.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 09/10/2020 2:02 PM

Posted By NpB on 09/09/2020 10:23 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2020 3:24 PM
Agree with John, Sam, and Tim.......

Thank you for the explanation. The outstanding question is whether the "popcorn" part of the ceiling is an unfinished or finished wall?

Sam answered this question.

According the wikipedia:
"A Popcorn Ceiling (slang), also known as a stipple ceiling, a stucco ceiling or formally an acoustic ceiling, is a ceiling with a certain spray-on or paint-on treatment."

The popcorn is added to the unfinished ceiling as a finish (for decorative and/or sound properties). The unfinished ceiling without the popcorn is the actual boundary of the unit. The popcorn is inside the boundary of the unit and so it belongs to the owner.

As Tim and others indicated, it doesn't matter, since the association has to pay to remove it to get to the beams that need work, so it becomes an association expense. The expense of removing the popcorn should not be billed to the unit owner. Your documents should have a statement to this effect, but even if they don't, it's just not an owner expense.

By the way, in a condominium, the HOA (COA) does not own the common elements. Each owner owns an undivided share of the common elements, and collectively all the owners own the common elements (through the legal structure of the condominium). The association just represents the owners and is responsible to maintain the common elements.

Thank you for the helpful explanation.