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SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
For 3 years living in my community I have had a hose holder in my front flower beds and I seasonally hang a wind sock in my tree. I have recd compliments on my yard all the time and many from board members.
I received a violation this week for an "empty pot" and colorful wind sock violating the rules.
There is nothing in the bylaws addressing either issue so I asked if the bylaws had changed recently since I have been doing this for 3 years with no issue. I also took pictures of REAL empty flower pots in the neighborhood(including the board presidents house) then a picture of my copper hose holder with a cover. Obviously not a flower pot to anyone with a brain.
I believe it is harassment for one of 2 reasons.......the wind sock represents gay pride. I have had multiple exchanges with the mgmt company and the board all summer regarding the pool not being open. I also supported a candidate for the board who was not well recd by other boards. It was an attempt by neighbors to break up the current board who are rather rogue.
Any advise most appreciated
TEXAS
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I'd wager the reason is NOT harrassment. Selective enforcement, maybe, with respect to the empty pots.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Shelia

Like it or not you have become a PIA to the BOD, over the pool issue, so they are looking closely at you.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
But its been in the same spot for 3 years and it is very obviously NOT a flower pot. And as mentioned there are many REAL empty flower pots including several in front of BOD homes. So I assume it is retribution over pool or gay pride wind sock.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheilaP1 on 08/27/2020 3:00 PM
But its been in the same spot for 3 years and it is very obviously NOT a flower pot. And as mentioned there are many REAL empty flower pots including several in front of BOD homes. So I assume it is retribution over pool or gay pride wind sock.

Maybe they are afraid if they allow a gay pride wind sock then they will have to allow the same for every other social cause despite how offensive it may be considered by others? If that is their logic then the easiest way to deal with it is to not allow anything. I'll let the better legal minds here comment on if they can do this if that is the reason they end up giving you.
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 08/27/2020 3:27 PM
Posted By SheilaP1 on 08/27/2020 3:00 PM
But its been in the same spot for 3 years and it is very obviously NOT a flower pot. And as mentioned there are many REAL empty flower pots including several in front of BOD homes. So I assume it is retribution over pool or gay pride wind sock.


Maybe they are afraid if they allow a gay pride wind sock then they will have to allow the same for every other social cause despite how offensive it may be considered by others? If that is their logic then the easiest way to deal with it is to not allow anything. I'll let the better legal minds here comment on if they can do this if that is the reason they end up giving you.

Must be a gay pride thing!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You are assigning the reason why. So guess it's because a rainbow represents gay pride then... Who knew? Seriously it is NOT harassments and NOT assigned because it represents "gay pride".

Does it have words on it? Then it can come off as a "sign". Which most HOA's do not allow for signs.

No one is going to "win" an argument because of what you assign the issue is not what it most likely is.

Former HOA President
JohnC77 (California)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/27/2020 3:49 PM
You are assigning the reason why. So guess it's because a rainbow represents gay pride then... Who knew? Seriously it is NOT harassments and NOT assigned because it represents "gay pride".

Does it have words on it? Then it can come off as a "sign". Which most HOA's do not allow for signs.

No one is going to "win" an argument because of what you assign the issue is not what it most likely is.

?????
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Sheila

You did not explicitly state in your original post, are you in a homeowners association or condominium association?

Do you have a copy of the Bylaws and the Declaration of your association? Are you familiar enough with the documents to know what they say about placing signs and flags? Does your association have rules regarding signs and flags? Are you familiar with those?

I cannot imagine your Declaration includes language regarding empty pots, that's likely way too granular for a Declaration. So, look to the rules of your association for help on the empty pots.

Flags or something like a windsock which could conceivably be defined as a flag, fall into a different category. In the case of flags, the state has stipulated which flags homeowners associations (but not condominium associations) must allow to be flown, at a minimum. Those include the flag of the United States, the current flag of the State of Texas, the flags of the branches of the military, and the POW/MIA flag. Many associations also allow educational institution flags (Texas, Arkansas, LSU, etc.), 'game day' flags of sports teams on the day of the game only, and the 'My daughter is a Boyd HS Band trumpet player' signs.

My point is this: what do the documents and rules of your association have to say? Are you in compliance or not?

Don't take the approach of saying, 'Well, so and so is doing it, why am I being singled out'. That is a non-starter as you do not know, and cannot be told, what enforcement actions are being taken against others. Without a lot of very expensive discovery by an attorney in a lawsuit, it will be very difficult if not impossible for you to make an accurate assessment of selective enforcement. Or harassment. If you are out of compliance, the communications from the association are not harassment.

Also, I suggest you just let the pool issues die. This has been a very difficult year for everyone charged with making decisions regarding common area amenities. There has been much speculation regarding association liability, expenses associated with opening amenities, and attempting to ensure the virus cannot be picked from a lounge chair, etc. We are in north Texas, our pool season has at best 45-60 days left. Let that one die. Everyone involved should have a better idea of how to deal with such issues next spring when it is time to open the pools.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With Bill, Sheila, anything about flags or banners most likely is in your rules & regs, not your Bylaws.

It sounds like both items are y in your front year. are front yard your separate interest? Or Association common area?

Did the person you campaigned for become elected?
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Hi and thanks for your recommendations
I am an HOA. I do have all the documentation and went through them all. Nothing is noted about either empty pots(even tho mine is clearly not a pot) or wind socks. It only states that flags are allowed to be attached to the house...nothing else can be attached including plant holders. You are to maintain the flower beds and tree rings. I am in compliance based on the rules. As mentioned I have had the hose holder in the same place for 3 years AND a seasonal wind sock hung in the front tree for 3 years.
I have let pool issue die. However I did fight it up until about a month ago.
I should have put a question mark behind harassment as I was asking if people felt this is what the issue was not stating that is what it is. Frustrating!!
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
I don't consider a wind sock a flag. Here's one definition I found:

"A windsock is a conical textile tube that resembles a giant sock. Windsocks can be used as a basic guide to wind direction and speed, or as decoration."

This begs the questions do your governing docs have any language about decorations or yard art? Our does and it actually includes a maximum amount of yard art allowed per condo. As I mentioned before the board members may be concerned if they allow any social cause decorations/flags then they will have to allow all of them including ones that may be offensive to most people. Personally, I'm willing to give up my rights to have social cause related flags/decorations in front of my condo if it means it will stop the idiots who want to display KKK/Confederate Flags/Nazi Flags/ and any other hate related message.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Hi
Thanks for that info. My concern is why all of a sudden it has become an issue when I have been hanging them from the tree for 3 years. Only change is the rainbow. It does say we are allowed to decorate for holidays with the decorations taken down within 2 weeks after holiday. I have always complied to that. I guess I take the current wind sock down from the tree and put up my Halloween decorations early OR hang a plant from the tree hook.
It has no words on it....just a rainbow with a sunshine. Im not saying its Harrasment.......just trying to connect the dots. The copper hose holder with a lid also has been there for 3 years.....never a problem before. I have asked respectfully to the management company to point me to the rules calling this out as I have reviewed and found that I am in compliance.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
I should have put a question mark behind Harassment because I am trying to make sense of why after 3 years I am getting the notice. Frustrating Selective enforcement is probably correct
Thanks Geno
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheilaP1 on 08/28/2020 6:34 AM
Hi
Thanks for that info. My concern is why all of a sudden it has become an issue when I have been hanging them from the tree for 3 years. Only change is the rainbow. It does say we are allowed to decorate for holidays with the decorations taken down within 2 weeks after holiday. I have always complied to that. I guess I take the current wind sock down from the tree and put up my Halloween decorations early OR hang a plant from the tree hook.
It has no words on it....just a rainbow with a sunshine. Im not saying its Harrasment.......just trying to connect the dots. The copper hose holder with a lid also has been there for 3 years.....never a problem before. I have asked respectfully to the management company to point me to the rules calling this out as I have reviewed and found that I am in compliance.

This is only a guess based on my own experience. I live in a 40 year old community where nothing was enforced. Prior to me joining the board this got the HOA in potential legal problems. When I joined the board we started enforcing them and we are also in the process of re-writing our documents. In other words, we are in clean up mode. I'm not saying this is what's going on in your case but its one possibility. You have every right to question them about this and should do so. Before you do, study your docs frontwards and backwards and be prepared. As a board member, the most aggravating thing I have to deal with is people who want to have an endless argument based on their feelings and not what the facts are.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Hey Melissa
I should have put a question mark behind Harassment as I am trying to figure out why after 3 years this has become a problem.
The wind sock is just a rainbow with sun on it....no words.....very generic. No sign
Im just frustrated and looking for some help in navigating since I have NEVER had an issue with anything so trying to connect the dots
It does not violate any of the rules stated so I have asked for specific direction to the rule from the mgmt company and asking if something had changed that I wasn't aware of prohibiting wind socks
The empty pot is simply a misunderstanding as it has a cover, is copper and is extremely attractive and was expensive. It has been in the same spot in my flower beds for 3 years
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Sad that you cant express your dismay(backed up with facts as I had worked with the City on Pool openings) about things without retribution.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Hi Kerry
There is NOTHING about wind socks. Only says flags are approved as the only thing that can be attached to your brick. I hang the windsock from the tree in the yard. Front yards are separate interest not common area. NO the person did not get elected.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Thanks John I have gone back politely to the management company and asked them to please direct me to the docs and where this violation would fall. As far as I can tell I am not out of compliance.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Sheila,

I would recommend you drop the word "harassment" completely.

I personally do not consider what you have described as harassment - every single note our board receives back from a homeowner about their violation declares event the friendly notices we provide to be harassment - way overused and not applicable in my opinion.

The letter we received today used the word harassment three times - and accused the management company of snooping around and spying on the homeowner with a camera. I was a normal monthly inspection using the online tools and a smart phone.
SheilaP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16
Posted:
I hear ya....thanks George
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheilaP1 on 08/28/2020 7:02 AM
Thanks John I have gone back politely to the management company and asked them to please direct me to the docs and where this violation would fall. As far as I can tell I am not out of compliance.

I think this is the correct approach.

The HOA's violation notice should have provided the text of the restriction or rule that you supposedly violated. If they can't cite a specific item, then it's not a violation - they can't read things into the governing docs that aren't there. (That's how boards end up on the losing end of legal action.)

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