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MelanieT1 (Illinois)
Posts: 4
Posted:
There is a foundation crack outside the kitchen wall of a Garden Unit.
Crack was discovered while unit owner was preparing to fix a warped/buckling floor, and damage was determined to stem from the foundation crack.
In order to fix the foundation crack, the unit's kitchen requires partial demo.
How does association determine what portion of the kitchen rebuild is their responsibility.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
By reading the governing documents that should delineate who's responsible for what.
MelanieT1 (Illinois)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thank you, but that is not clearly outlined in our declarations, and hence, my post here. It clearly states what is common & what is limited common elements. It is not clear who bears the responsibility when in order to repair a common element, the elements within a unit owners unit have to be destroyed.
Hoping to find some similar circumstance and how it was handled.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mel

Typically if an exterior wall the association would be responsible. If this is correct, I would say all damage caused to repair such should be covered by the association but I can see this getting nasty and end up involving the associations and the owners insurance companies.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
(1) Often who is liable for what in such a situation is buried in the more difficult legalese of a condominium declaration.

(2) Often insurance companies duke out who is going to pay for what in a situation like the OP's.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
From my limited condo knowledge base, most foundations, walls, etc - are common.

If there was a crack in a common element that had caused my floor to need to be replaced, then I would certainly expect the COA to pay for the repair, and for any damages, including replacing the flooring and any other elements on my kitchen that were damaged.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/07/2020 2:13 PM
From my limited condo knowledge base, most foundations, walls, etc - are common.

If there was a crack in a common element that had caused my floor to need to be replaced, then I would certainly expect the COA to pay for the repair, and for any damages, including replacing the flooring and any other elements on my kitchen that were damaged.

Axe-u-lee... everyone should talk to their own insurance agents about this. What I was told by our association's agent that the person who insures the particular component (as defined in the governing docs) is the one who pays for repairs *unless it was an insurable event and the association has all-included insurance.* However, there can be exceptions, so it depends what the individual policies say.

Many associations make the mistake of assuming that damage which originates in the common elements is always the association's responsibility. **This is not the case.**

For example, suppose a tornado rips the roof off a building and parts of the unit below are damaged. If the association carries all-in insurance, then the association's insurance will pay for repairs because storms are an insurable event, but excluding the owner's personal belongings. (Think of the unit as a box and then flip it over. Everything that falls is the unit owner's personal property and their responsibility.) If the association does not carry all-in insurance, then the interior repairs are the unit owner's responsibility (the box analogy does not apply in this case.)

However, a crack in a foundation or wall would probably not be considered an insurable event unless it resulted from an earthquake or some such. If this is the case, then the association would pay for repairs to the common elements and the unit owner would pay for repairs to the interior. The unit owner's insurance may pay for these repairs.

But these are just rules of thumb, and there can be many exceptions depending on what the governing docs say and what the insurance policies say. The OP and the unit owner should not assume anything until the insurers have their say. Don't expect this to be resolved quickly, since other professionals such as structural engineers may get involved.
MelanieT1 (Illinois)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Insurance companies are both "out" - this situation is not covered by either. That has been established.

I think we are in a situation where what is considered "fair" and what is considered "legal" becomes very confusing. Thanks for your reply.
MelanieT1 (Illinois)
Posts: 4
Posted:
It's been confirmed that the insurances for either party will not cover any of this.

I hope that we can resolve it amicably and fairly within the association. Thank you for taking time to give your insight.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I should have added:

The answer is going to depend on whether the repairs to the foundation are considered maintenance or the result of an insurable event.

If it's routine maintenance, then the COA pays for repairs to the common elements (and maybe limited common elements, but this varies depending on what the governing docs say). The unit owner is responsible for everything else (some of which may be covered by their personal insurance).

If it is determined that the crack in the foundation resulted from something that was sudden, unpredictable, and unpreventable through normal, prudent care - think earthquake, landslide or sink hole - then the COA's insurance may cover part of the repairs to the unit, but this depends on what kind of insurance the association carries. My COA's Declaration requires us to carry all-in insurance, but there are other COAs whose insurance only covers the common elements. In the latter case, the unit owner would be responsible for all interior repairs.

Unless the governing docs and/or insurance policies say otherwise.

Insurance is complicated and COA insurance is the worst. Even the pros scratch their heads occasionally.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
So, not an insurable event.

In this case, it would be considered maintenance. Look in your Declaration or CC&R. Check the definition of "unit", "common element" and "limited common element". Then check the section that talks about unit owner responsibilities. It will probably say something like the unit owner is responsible for maintaining the components of the "unit". If this is the case, then the unit owner must pay for repairs to the unit.

Several years ago I got an unpleasant surprise when I found myself out of pocket by several thousand dollars as a result of a slow leak in the pipe inside the interior wall of the unit above my next door neighbors. Our COA paid for none of the repairs. The owners of the damaged units were on the hook for everything in their units. This is condo living, and few people understand this until they get an unpleasant surprise of their own.

If we had a similar situation in my community, the board would talk to both the attorney and our insurance agent. This will establish who is legally responsible for what repairs and will give the necessary parties a heads-up in the event that the unit owner decides to sue.

It is very tempting for board members to want to "do the right thing" and not be bad guys. But to be blunt, the board has a duty to do right *by the COA as a whole*. Taking on repairs of the unit, if this contradicts what your governing docs say, is putting the interest of an individual owner ahead of the interest of the COA. This would be a breach of your fiduciary duty. I get that the unit owner doesn't want to pay for the damaged unit, but why should his neighbors have to do so?

Sometimes board members have to be harda**es. And I say this as someone who has been on both sides of issues like this.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Check the maintenance section of your Declaration. It should describe this situation, which is quite common, and it should say that the association has to repair damage to a unit that is caused when rendering repairs to the common elements, and that the repairs are a common expense (not a unit-owner expense). What does the declaration say?

Since you are talking to insurance companies (adjusters), call them back and ask if the association is liable for damage to a unit when rendering repairs to the common elements. I think the answer will be crystal clear that the association is liable for unit repairs in this situation. You can also ask an attorney.

Be sure to check with a number of contractors and/or engineers to try to fix the foundation without going through the unit. There are often alternatives, although not all contractors will have the equipment or expertise.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
OK, I misread the original post.

If the COA will be causing additional damage while repairing the cracked foundation, then I agree that they should pay to replace anything that they damage. If there was additional damage beyond what the repair crews will cause, that's a potential source of conflict since it's tempting to try to slide that in there as well.

I agree with Jeff about talking to a number of contractors and getting their opinions. It may be possible to save and replace some of the unit's fixtures.

You should also get an inventory with photos of what's in the unit before all the work starts. Also produce an itemized list of what will be replaced at the COA's expense and what will not, and get signatures on both documents. If there was existing damage beyond what the repair crews will cause, that's a potential source of conflict since it's tempting to try to slide that repair over to the COA as well. Owners also can be tempted to get themselves free upgrades by claiming that the original fixtures were more upscale than they actually were. An initial inventory with photos will help prevent "misunderstandings".

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