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signs on homeowner property

Started by RobertW31 ā€¢ 18 replies ā€¢ 1073 views

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RobertW31 (New York)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Hi, So have an interesting dilemma. Our townhouse community in New York State has specific rules agains the posting of signs on a homeowners property or in their windows. They are not allowed except for when there is an open house or with special permission if someone is having an estate sale.

We currently have a resident who just posted a Black Lives Matter sign in their front yard. I know this person and he knows the rules as well as anyone and is trying to make a point or is spoiling for a fight.

I have asked our property management to send him a letter, with a copy of the rules, and in the letter tell him that we have no objection to the message in his sign the rules do not permit signs and if we ignore his sign it will send a subtle message to everyone in here that they are free to put up any sign they want. This is not in the best interests of the community, and we are requesting that he remove it by a certain date.

It almost seems like a second amendment issue in a way so not sure where he plans to go with this since he is a former union organizer and likely will not settle this quietly.

Anyone encountered a situation like this and if so how did you handle it? Thanks, Bob
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
First, is this rule board-created? Or is it in the covenants? The difference is huge. If the "rule" derives from the covenants, please quote the covenant exactly.

This topic is coming up a lot here. This article says that in New York, depending on the HOA/condo's governing documents, a HOA/condo flat-out prohibited, regardless of their content: https://www.hoalawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/385/2016/12/nytimes.com-Posting-Political-Signs-in-the-Window-Is-Your-Right-Isnt-It.pdf

I like the wording you suggested. But the legal validity of a violation letter sent to the resident depends on more.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 08/05/2020 10:04 AM
This article says that in New York, depending on the HOA/condo's governing documents, a HOA/condo flat-out prohibited, regardless of their content: https://www.hoalawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/385/2016/12/nytimes.com-Posting-Political-Signs-in-the-Window-Is-Your-Right-Isnt-It.pdf
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 08/05/2020 10:04 AM
This article says that in New York, depending on the HOA/condo's governing documents, a HOA/condo flat-out prohibited, regardless of their content: https://www.hoalawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/385/2016/12/nytimes.com-Posting-Political-Signs-in-the-Window-Is-Your-Right-Isnt-It.pdf


Post-o. I meant that, depending on the HOA/condo's governing documents, a HOA/condo can lawfully flat-out prohibit signs, regardless of their content.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I think your letter is OK, too, Robert. But I don't believe you should refer to the content of the sign at all. Keep it at the level that signs are not permitted in yards. Period.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/05/2020 12:11 PM
I think your letter is OK, too, Robert. But I don't believe you should refer to the content of the sign at all. Keep it at the level that signs are not permitted in yards. Period.

I agree.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Tim raises h point, Robert, about whether local or state laws might override your own rules or covenants. you shall heck.

In CA, for instance, we must permit non-comercial signs in our windows -- political or otherwise. The hOA can limit the size and number of them. But years ar different, I guess?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/05/2020 12:11 PM
I think your letter is OK, too, Robert. But I don't believe you should refer to the content of the sign at all. Keep it at the level that signs are not permitted in yards. Period.

This is good advice. The regulation forbids signage. No need to explain further or be apologetic about enforcing the rule, which pre-dates the current political climate.
MichaelB49 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
In Florida, Statutes specify legal use of ā€˜No Trespassingā€™ signage. Our HOA forbids owners from posting signs of any type. Can our HOA override this Florida law and effectively demand the homeowner to remove a properly legally posted ā€˜No Trespassingā€™ sign? Any experience with this State statute v HOA sign issue in Florida?
MichaelB49 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
In Florida, Statutes specify legal use of ā€˜No Trespassingā€™ signage. Our HOA forbids owners from posting signs of any type. Can our HOA override this Florida law and effectively demand the homeowner to remove a properly legally posted ā€˜No Trespassingā€™ sign? Any experience with this State statute v HOA sign issue in Florida?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelB49 on 08/13/2020 6:42 PM
In Florida, Statutes specify legal use of ā€˜No Trespassingā€™ signage.
Statutes also specify that owners must comply with HOA and Condo covenants. I believe the HOA/Condo statutes trump whatever loose reading is being done of trespassing statutes.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
OK - Iā€™ll bite.

No Trespassing signage for what reason?
MichaelB49 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Can a Florida HOA Board act ā€˜invisiblyā€™ targeting only one ownerā€™s no words - ā€˜location marking flagsā€™?
I have re-phrased the following for emphasis: The legal validity of a violation letter sent to the resident depends on more: First, is this rule board-created? Or is it in the covenants? The difference is huge. If the "rule" derives from the covenants, please quote the covenant exactly.
Question: Can a covenant rule of ā€˜no signs of any characterā€™ be expanded by the Board, acting ā€˜invisiblyā€™ to, to target one owner, to also include his use of ā€˜utility location marking flagsā€™ for several weeks that have no words ā€“ just color, used only as a visual aid depicting a newly surveyed (moved) property boundary for private disclosure in out of state correspondence? The minutes of the relevant Board meeting do not include any discussion of a ā€˜marking flagā€™ violation or any vote authorization for issuing a ā€˜marking flagā€™ violation letter. There is No written trace of a Boardā€™s action - beyond the violation letter and a follow-up certified letter from the Boardā€™s law firm.
Question: Can a board letter be legal and have consequences if no written trace exists in board minutes for its issue?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Michael ... again, Iā€™d love to see more on the No Trespassing signage?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 09/10/2020 5:38 PM
Michael ... again, Iā€™d love to see more on the No Trespassing signage?

So would I, Unless Florida has a presumption law that it is assumed that unless one has a pecuniary interest in said property one is indeed trespassing on private property.
MichaelB49 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
No Trespassing signs issue: Our Boardā€™s attorney stated to the owner: ā€˜the Florida statutes do not give you permission to violate the Associationā€™s documentsā€™; providing no references. Recommending that the owner retain an attorney.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Michael,

That didn't answer anything for me ... can you provide more detail - I'm not following.

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