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GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Hi All,

For reserves over $250k we have the option to ladder CDs at multiple banks, use a bank with CDARS, or to use a bank with a surety bond.

I don’t think we want to make the process complicated by having multiple banks, so we need to decide between CDARS and surety bond.

CDARS I understand, but I can’t figure out the pros/cons of the surety bond approach. Is it simply insurance purchased by the bank?

Thanks!
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I suggest asking a banker at one of the institutions that offer these products, because financial instruments can be complicated and have hidden gotchas.

With both of these options you'll have multiple financial institutions involved, so you'd want to pay attention to solvency and other measures of risk. For what it's worth, we put our reserves in one of the Too Big to Fail banks (that sells CDARS) because odds are they will still be standing when the rest of the country has collapsed. That's about as conservative and uncontroversial a decision that a board member can make (although I expect some would argue with it - because HOA).
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
CDARS is simply a risk spreading construct - the bank you get the CD from is part of a network of 3000 or so institutions - they just spread the CD so it is always covered by FDIC - the rate is a bit lower than a straight CD, because they have to pay for the service costs to manage the system - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Deposit_Account_Registry_Service.

Surety Bonds as they apply to this, I don't understand - I'm willing to bet it is more complicated than CDARS, and also that it is not as secure as FDIC (however, I do understand that if pressure is put on FDIC to cover, there is not really much safety there, either).
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/07/2020 2:06 PM

Surety Bonds as they apply to this, I don't understand - I'm willing to bet it is more complicated than CDARS, and also that it is not as secure as FDIC (however, I do understand that if pressure is put on FDIC to cover, there is not really much safety there, either).

My understanding is that CDARS is a legal way to get around the FDIC limit - you have the convenience of putting all money (apparently) in one bank, but the funds are actually in multiple banks. Of course each of these is insured up to $250,000, so if one became insolvent you should still be fine. This is sort of plain-vanilla banking anymore. My brokerage account has a similar feature for the cash management sub-account which is also FDIC insured.

Bonds are debt instruments, so a different sort of beast. I believe that they are a different way to achieve the same end (protecting funds in excess of $250,000). If everything goes fine, you probably won't notice a difference, but I'd assume that there are different risks associated with each approach.

Here is an overview of the difference between a bank letter of credit and a surety bond that may or may not be helpful:
https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.surety.org/resource/resmgr/LearnAboutSurety/Surety_Bond_vs_Bank_LOC.pdf

I spent part of my career working in one of the big brokerage houses, but banking is sort of out of my wheel house. However, based on what I know about finances, surface simplicity often hides complexities underneath. If I were researching this, I'd ask the bank to take me through both scenarios: $750,000 in CDARS (spread over several banks) vs. $750,000 held in one bank with $250,000 FDIC insurance plus $500,000 surety bond.

Ask about:

* different interest rates?
* different tax reporting?
* differences in risk? (CDARS is 100% insured by FDIC, the surety bond is purchased/provided by the bank, so I'm guessing slightly more risky)
* differences if you need $300,000 on short notice?
* what happens in detail if the bank you're working with becomes insolvent, including how long it would take you to get a hold of the money in each case. This is important if you will be need to replace roofs or something soon, and I'm guessing this is where things could get interesting.

And one final thing to ask yourself: is there any advantage to simply splitting the money up between different financial institutions yourself? This may not be practical if you have large reserves, obviously.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I think I've talked myself into going the CDARS route if I were dealing with this.

FDIC insurance is backed by the full faith and credit of the federal government. The surety bond is being provided by some other institution, so you would be relying on the financial strength of that institution which you may not be able to assess.

The majority of the time this would likely make no difference whatsoever.

However, the entire world has some serious dark economic clouds on the horizon due to COVID, and I don't think anybody can predict just how bad things will get.

In order to go the surety bond route, I would expect to be compensated in some fashion for taking on additional risk in the form of earning more interest for deposits that are insured this way. The bank holding my money may not see things this way, which would be another point in favor of CDARS.

But please get some more opinions. I'm very risk averse with association funds, and as I said I don't have a background in banking. Others may have a different point of view.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 07/07/2020 3:03 PM
My understanding is that CDARS is a legal way to get around the FDIC limit ...

It does seem that way and I've seen this arrangement recommended elsewhere. But there are FDIC limits for a reason and if the banks involved go belly up then someone is going to lose. "Don't worry, it won't be you," seems too good to be true. What's the catch? The banks have pulled out all the stops in setting up a huge casino on Wall Street and it seems par for the course for them to mislead everyone about what's really going on.

It may all be fine. I like the idea of going through all the scenarios to find out at what point it's not.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 07/08/2020 12:11 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 07/07/2020 3:03 PM
My understanding is that CDARS is a legal way to get around the FDIC limit ...

It does seem that way and I've seen this arrangement recommended elsewhere. But there are FDIC limits for a reason and if the banks involved go belly up then someone is going to lose. "Don't worry, it won't be you," seems too good to be true. What's the catch?
....

I think at least one of the catches is the possibility of numerous banks going bankrupt at roughly the same time, thus bankrupting FDIC. Yes, the federal government backstops FDIC, but our government is busy spending like nuts to shore up the economy which is still in the early innings of the damage being wrought by COVID. At some point the Federal Reserve's endless printing of money will stop being effective.

The real trouble is that during times of crisis, there can be few if any safe harbors.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Thanks, CathyA3. Good info.

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