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VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Our Board is trying to change our fine policy so we can start fining residents and revoke amenity access for breaking pool rules. A bit of googling leads me to believe we can neither fine someone nor revoke their amenity privileges without providing the resident with a hearing, which must be announced 10 days in advance.

Our situation: We have a couple repeat offenders who bring glass into the pool area and/or smoke in the pool area. They've become belligerent with our security team, mainly because we haven't had any security in place for several years and people have become used to doing whatever they want to. For our enforcement to be effective, I believe residents need to be fined and their access needs to be revoked within only a couple days of them committing the violation after a verbal warning has been given by security.

Is there any way we can enforce our rules by having nearly immediate consequences? How are others handling pool rules?

(Note: We have an unusually large number of entitled residents/renters in our community. Whatever we implement needs to be tough with no loopholes or room for interpretation so we get this problem under control as soon as possible.)
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Is 10 days really going to make a difference either way? Why not just schedule the hearing and be done with it?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Need to make a "Fining schedule" so everyone is aware of what they can be fined for and how much. Plus of course the obligated hearing process.

There still is the police option. We are not talking about the glass and smoking. We are talking if they are belligerent or cross a line. The police should be contacted.

We had a guy that exposed himself at the pool. The lady called the police. The police could not get the person because did not see the crime. However, we passed the word along about NOT being alone with this person to other residents who frequent the pool. So we had our own system of communication to protect each other or watch trouble makers.

Former HOA President
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/07/2020 4:21 PM
Is 10 days really going to make a difference either way? Why not just schedule the hearing and be done with it?

Maybe you should send the OP your GEICO link.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Are you asking if it will make a difference if we can revoke access and fine the resident immediately versus 10 days later? Yes. That gives them 10 days to continue bringing glass into the pool area, risking us having to drain the pool when they break the glass. That's potentially two full weekends of them breaking rule after rule without having to face consequences.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2020 4:25 PM
Need to make a "Fining schedule" so everyone is aware of what they can be fined for and how much. Plus of course the obligated hearing process.

We have a general fining schedule for CC&R violations (trash cans and such). It calls for sending out a violation letter and requiring the resident to fix the issue within 14 days. That's really not applicable to pool rules and that's where I'm stuck. What can and can't we do? Is sending out a letter before we can do anything really required by law? Or can we rewrite our schedule/policy so the notification prior to action is not required?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Interesting ...

I’m assuming they can be evicted from the pool for braking the rules?

I’m assuming the local police would respond to this?

Set it to make a specific example of one of them ... coordinated approach with law enforcement.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VeronicaV on 06/07/2020 4:25 PM
Are you asking if it will make a difference if we can revoke access and fine the resident immediately versus 10 days later? Yes. That gives them 10 days to continue bringing glass into the pool area, risking us having to drain the pool when they break the glass. That's potentially two full weekends of them breaking rule after rule without having to face consequences.

At a bare minimum have you already sent the notices out to the known offenders? If not, why? I could be completely wrong but my guess is you will spend more than 10 days figuring this out and ensuring that the change is ironclad. In the mean time the clock is ticking...
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/07/2020 4:38 PM
Interesting ...

I’m assuming they can be evicted from the pool for braking the rules?

I’m assuming the local police would respond to this?

Set it to make a specific example of one of them ... coordinated approach with law enforcement.

I do not believe we can legally evict anyone from the pool area. It's not written in any documents. The only "threat" we have is what's on the pool signs which say you "may" be fined and have access revoked. They were written up less than a year ago.

From what I understand, police won't get involved unless it becomes criminal. Violating our rules isn't a criminal offense. Trespassing would be and we have issues with that too, but this is a different set of rules we're trying to enforce.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Do your CC&Rs allow the Association to withdraw common area privileges? If not, I don't know if you can do this. Check with HOA attorney.

When a resident occasionally breaks the no glass in the pool area rule here, the officer comes an tells them to remove the items from the pool area. If the persons do not, we have seen officers remove the items themselves to outside the pool area.

What does you schedule of fines say about smoking in your common areas?

We do have a clause in your Rules & Regs that the Board may call an owner to a hearing "immediately" for certain violations, e.g., doing damage to the common areas? Can you add such a clause to your rules or wherever you have the fining scheme posted? Can you add a rule against belligerent or hostile behavior to staff?

What do AZ statutes say about "due process?" Are there a set amount of days' Notice that must be given per your document or AZ statutes to call an Owner to a hearing?

If they have 10 days, then I would send them a call to hearing every day that they violate the no-glass or smoking rule. Send it certified mail return receipt requested.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Have you met with local cops? ā€œFrom what I understandā€ doesn’t seem to indicate you have pulled that thread.

Can the Board declare the pool a ā€œRequired Safety Areaā€ noting rules that, if broken require immediate removal if the offender as a trespasser?

Get an attorney involved if you are serious about facing this.

If you don’t make progress, board vote to shut the pool down. Also vote to allow any board member to shut the pool down at any time - in response to infractions they see.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/07/2020 4:55 PM
Posted By VeronicaV on 06/07/2020 4:25 PM
Are you asking if it will make a difference if we can revoke access and fine the resident immediately versus 10 days later? Yes. That gives them 10 days to continue bringing glass into the pool area, risking us having to drain the pool when they break the glass. That's potentially two full weekends of them breaking rule after rule without having to face consequences.


At a bare minimum have you already sent the notices out to the known offenders? If not, why? I could be completely wrong but my guess is you will spend more than 10 days figuring this out and ensuring that the change is ironclad. In the mean time the clock is ticking...

They've been asked by security multiple times to refrain from breaking the rules, but we don't have any documents in place to be able to enforce anything. The builder enforced nothing and only handed off the HOA less than a year ago. It's been a struggle...
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/07/2020 5:18 PM
Have you met with local cops? ā€œFrom what I understandā€ doesn’t seem to indicate you have pulled that thread.

Can the Board declare the pool a ā€œRequired Safety Areaā€ noting rules that, if broken require immediate removal if the offender as a trespasser?

Get an attorney involved if you are serious about facing this.

If you don’t make progress, board vote to shut the pool down. Also vote to allow any board member to shut the pool down at any time - in response to infractions they see.

That's what I was told by other Board members. Meeting with police is in the works. COVID got in the way.

Good point about shutting down the pool, although we'd probably end up with a riot if we did that. Definitely something to keep in mind though.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/07/2020 5:17 PM
Do your CC&Rs allow the Association to withdraw common area privileges? If not, I don't know if you can do this. Check with HOA attorney.

It does. And it says nothing about having to give notice. It's in the same section as suspending voting rights and does not state that a notice of revoked privileges must be sent.!

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/07/2020 5:17 PM
What does you schedule of fines say about smoking in your common areas?

I don't think it says anything about smoking. The rules posted at the pool say no smoking anywhere on the property except in a designated area. I'll try to find where it "officially" states that.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/07/2020 5:17 PM
We do have a clause in your Rules & Regs that the Board may call an owner to a hearing "immediately" for certain violations, e.g., doing damage to the common areas? Can you add such a clause to your rules or wherever you have the fining scheme posted? Can you add a rule against belligerent or hostile behavior to staff?

Excellent suggestion. I think that's what we need.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/07/2020 5:17 PM
What do AZ statutes say about "due process?" Are there a set amount of days' Notice that must be given per your document or AZ statutes to call an Owner to a hearing?

No idea. I read 10 days somewhere, but I'm not sure that AZ specific. I'll do more research. I didn't find anything about it in our documents.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
It sounds like your research shows you are required to give them a hearing. If that is the requirement, I would not even think about trying to circumvent it somehow. Trying to take shortcuts gets HOAs in trouble.

Follow the law and your governing documents. There are no other options.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 06/07/2020 8:24 PM
It sounds like your research shows you are required to give them a hearing. If that is the requirement, I would not even think about trying to circumvent it somehow. Trying to take shortcuts gets HOAs in trouble.

Follow the law and your governing documents. There are no other options.

Yeah, looks like we can't fine until a hearing with 10 days' notice via mail but we can revoke access without notification. I'm going to go with that and then run it past legal.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Do you have a health, safety and welfare clause in your CC&R'S and Rules & Regs? There should be some language in your governing documents that says members and guests must follow pool rules. Although not each type of violation is not specifically spelled out, here in Nevada we can summon to a hearing and fine for violations of the CC&R'S and Rules & Regs. Also here in Nevada we can trespass or "ban" people from amenities for violating the covenants. Since you stated the people get irate, that could be interpreted as a threat.

You're on a good path to make things right..

Our board finally dropped the hammer down on people that were blowing off illegal fireworks, and not just firecrackers and bottle rockets, the BIG stuff, near show quality. Our council said we can use the health and welfare clause and we fined at the maximum, $1000.00
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
It does not sound like you can immediately evict anyone from the pool. The numbers of days of notice you must give before a hearing will vary depending on where you live. I think that you must give residents notice so that they can prepare for the hearing. The concept comes from a basic set of rules that are embedded in many areas of the law.

Act swiftly, but this may take a couple of weeks before you can revoke anyone's rights to use the pool.

If things become heated between residents and security again, advise them to call the police.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
It's one thing to say you can evict someone from the pool and another to have the bells to actually do it.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/08/2020 9:01 AM
It's one thing to say you can evict someone from the pool and another to have the bells to actually do it.

I've done it. No glass in the pool is a BOH requirement and even with glass bottles in the trash bins, the BOH close the pool and require it to be drained. A very large cost to the HOA.

I also have large dog. And I follow them home.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
I think documentation is going to be important. The HOA can have its security staff write-up reports. But in my experience, a security camera system for the pool area would make all the difference and is worth its cost. The HOA can ask members to report the time and day they see smoking and use of glass or other behavior violating the covenants. Then the HOA manager can look up the video footage. Plus the presence of cameras all by themselves will deter.
VeronicaV (Arizona)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 06/08/2020 10:41 AM
I think documentation is going to be important. The HOA can have its security staff write-up reports. But in my experience, a security camera system for the pool area would make all the difference and is worth its cost. The HOA can ask members to report the time and day they see smoking and use of glass or other behavior violating the covenants. Then the HOA manager can look up the video footage. Plus the presence of cameras all by themselves will deter.

This is exactly where we're heading. We have the option of someone monitoring the cameras remotely and even making announcements over a speaker. In the mean time, we have security on site only on weekends. I'm having them make notes about violations as well as the time people used their fob so we can go back later and see who caused the trouble. Until we have a fine policy set up though, all this does is get us data. The policy is where I'm a bit stuck, but I think I've figured most of it out. Time to run it by legal!

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