NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posts: 605
Posted:
If a Board member does not approve Board meeting minutes because they do not like what was decided upon, is that considered disloyal and is that person a liability to the HOA?
A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
Not Approving Meeting Minutes
Started by NpB • 27 replies • 1508 views
💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.
Create Free Account →
⚡ Takes 30 seconds
Already a member? Log in
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpB on 06/02/2020 12:28 PM
If a Board member does not approve Board meeting minutes because they do not like what was decided upon, is that considered disloyal and is that person a liability to the HOA?
If a Board member does not approve Board meeting minutes because they do not like what was decided upon, is that considered disloyal and is that person a liability to the HOA?
Simply by not approving minutes, no. Just have the other directors approve them and note, when the approval is given, who voted for and against the approval.
There could be other things that the person does that makes her disloyal and a liability to the HOA.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Hypo or just another silly thought?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
(1) The Board votes, not just one director. (2) Why would anyone consider her/him disloyal and/or a liability for their HOA?
Scraping the bottom the barrel on this hypothetical, NpB
Scraping the bottom the barrel on this hypothetical, NpB
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I'm sure something like this happens occasionally.
It's a stupid and pointless thing to do, though. Approving the minutes means that you say that they are an accurate representation of what happened. It has zero zip zilch nada to do with your opinion of the votes. The time to voice your disapproval of proposed actions is during the vote and if the minutes are accurate, that will show up in the vote tally.
This stuff is difficult enough without people creating additional problems.
It's a stupid and pointless thing to do, though. Approving the minutes means that you say that they are an accurate representation of what happened. It has zero zip zilch nada to do with your opinion of the votes. The time to voice your disapproval of proposed actions is during the vote and if the minutes are accurate, that will show up in the vote tally.
This stuff is difficult enough without people creating additional problems.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posts: 605
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 06/02/2020 2:49 PM
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
Thank you for the informative/helpful post.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpB on 06/02/2020 4:14 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 06/02/2020 2:49 PM
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
Thank you for the informative/helpful post.
I would include the following resolution in the next set of minutes:
RESOLVED, that Karen be, and she hereby is, acknowledged as disloyal and damaging to the Association;
NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posts: 605
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulJ6 on 06/02/2020 4:50 PM
Thank you for the informative/helpful post.
Posted By NpB on 06/02/2020 4:14 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 06/02/2020 2:49 PM
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
If the board member was in the minority when the decision was made and he/ is really concerned about it, the proper thing to do is to prepare a brief statement expressing his/her concerns and ask that the statement be attached to the minutes. Beyond tbzt, voting against the minutes just because you don't like the decision is ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with loyalty - board minutes reflect the official decisions of the board and in this case, being on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean the decision was invalid. This is why minutes may say something like "the board voted 5-1 to do X"
As for liability to the HOA just because one casts a no vote, that won't necessarily happen either. People don't always get what they want, but that doesn't the board member is disloyal. I'd be more concerned about board members who didn't apply careful thought to the issue before voting, voted one way only because everybody else voted that way, or was more concerned about being reelected than making decisions in the best interests of the association.
You don't always know what the consequences of your decision will be, so the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision you can. If it turns out to be a bad one, fix what you can, learn from it and move on. That's life, and the you're a HOA board member, a parent or anything else.
Thank you for the informative/helpful post.
I would include the following resolution in the next set of minutes:
RESOLVED, that Karen be, and she hereby is, acknowledged as disloyal and damaging to the Association;
And then get sued by Karen?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Let's not confuse NpB, Paula. My name isn't Karen, but you call me that. Reading issues? As we now know "Karen" also is insulting slang
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
NpB
Minutes are not a description of what was discussed, who liked what, who disliked what, etc. They are a record of Motions and who voted what way. Your new Minutes should say:
A Motion to accept prior minutes was made by Harry and 2nd by June. The BOD 5 to 1 to accept the prior Minutes with so and so casting the only no vote.
End of dicsussion.
Minutes are not a description of what was discussed, who liked what, who disliked what, etc. They are a record of Motions and who voted what way. Your new Minutes should say:
A Motion to accept prior minutes was made by Harry and 2nd by June. The BOD 5 to 1 to accept the prior Minutes with so and so casting the only no vote.
End of dicsussion.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Agree John. There is no correlation between loyalty and meeting notes. Meeting notes are just the facts. This was the motion, this is the vote, and this is action to be taken. It's not a personal thing. How you read them is.
Former HOA President
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/03/2020 11:21 AM
Let's not confuse NpB, Paula. My name isn't Karen, but you call me that. Reading issues? As we now know "Karen" also is insulting slang
Let's not confuse NpB, Paula. My name isn't Karen, but you call me that. Reading issues? As we now know "Karen" also is insulting slang
(1) This is NpB's thread, so focus on answering the question and (2) stop trying to fight. Seriously.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpB on 06/02/2020 12:28 PM
If a Board member does not approve Board meeting minutes because they do not like what was decided upon, is that considered disloyal and is that person a liability to the HOA?
If a Board member does not approve Board meeting minutes because they do not like what was decided upon, is that considered disloyal and is that person a liability to the HOA?
That's not a valid reason for not approving the minutes but I would not call the person disloyal or a liability.
Under Robert's Rules no vote is necessary for approving the minutes. If no corrections are offered or there are no objections to the corrections, the chair can declare the minutes approved. This might help eliminate the problem unless your bylaws say differently.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
More hypothetical nonsense?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With Ben, the secretary here merely says at that agenda item. "Are there any amendments to the minutes of xx-xx-xxx?" "Hearing none, the minutes of xx are approved as submitted." Or, "The xxx minutes are approved as amended." Saves time.
It's also true per Robert's that just because someone is absent during said meeting, they must abstain. No.
It's also true per Robert's that just because someone is absent during said meeting, they must abstain. No.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/04/2020 6:57 PM
With Ben, the secretary here merely says at that agenda item. "Are there any amendments to the minutes of xx-xx-xxx?" "Hearing none, the minutes of xx are approved as submitted." Or, "The xxx minutes are approved as amended." Saves time.
It's also true per Robert's that just because someone is absent during said meeting, they must abstain. No.
With Ben, the secretary here merely says at that agenda item. "Are there any amendments to the minutes of xx-xx-xxx?" "Hearing none, the minutes of xx are approved as submitted." Or, "The xxx minutes are approved as amended." Saves time.
It's also true per Robert's that just because someone is absent during said meeting, they must abstain. No.
Karen, that's not valid. The board has to vote.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Paul,
I keep noting the “Karen” thing ... do you have an issue with Kerry you would like to address?
Are you trying to be disrespectful?
I keep noting the “Karen” thing ... do you have an issue with Kerry you would like to address?
Are you trying to be disrespectful?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Ditto what GeorgeS21 said.
NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posts: 605
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/04/2020 5:08 PM
More hypothetical nonsense?
More hypothetical nonsense?
Is there a moderator on this forum that can issue warnings or infractions to posters? GeorgeS21 feels the need to troll and falsely routinely ask if my posts are hypothethical.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
There is no moderator.
@KerryL1, I owe you a direct apology. I've snapped at you a few times. My fault, and I should not have done that. I am sorry.
@KerryL1, I owe you a direct apology. I've snapped at you a few times. My fault, and I should not have done that. I am sorry.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thank you, Paul. Now, please check RONR, 11th ed. to show us the citation that states the board must vote to approve minutes.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
There is an Administrator that can report to. They can remove offensive posts and posters. You can usually tell by responses missing statements or the website goes down. Usually them clearing up the site. We've had to remove a few people off here over the years who crossed the line. Some very worrisome posters that needed some help.
Former HOA President
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/05/2020 9:52 AM
Thank you, Paul. Now, please check RONR, 11th ed. to show us the citation that states the board must vote to approve minutes.
Thank you, Paul. Now, please check RONR, 11th ed. to show us the citation that states the board must vote to approve minutes.
I'm constantly told that "the same rules from your corporate lawyer world don't apply in HOA situations" but if the Secretary states as per your post:
"Are there any amendments to the minutes of xx-xx-xxx?" "Hearing none, the minutes of xx are approved as submitted." Or, "The xxx minutes are approved as amended." Saves time.
Where's the approval? Silence doesn't mean approval. The proper way to record the situation that you describe, where there's no vote, is that the minutes should read, "It was the sense of the Board that the minutes were acceptable". But there's been no approval. And a vote takes just a few seconds if everyone agrees.
On the nonprofit boards that I'm on, the minutes are always approved at meetings, by voice vote.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
And in the guide to Roberts Rules, I see:
"Handling the motion for approval
The most efficient way of approving minutes is for the chair to assume the motion and obtain unanimous consent that the minutes be approved as distributed (or as corrected)."
Only after there have been rounds of corrections submitted and made can the secretary of the meeting state that, once there is silence, the minutes are approved, following Roberts Rules.
"Handling the motion for approval
The most efficient way of approving minutes is for the chair to assume the motion and obtain unanimous consent that the minutes be approved as distributed (or as corrected)."
Only after there have been rounds of corrections submitted and made can the secretary of the meeting state that, once there is silence, the minutes are approved, following Roberts Rules.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posts: 990
Posted:
KerryL1, I'll acknowledge that the text you posted is from RONR. And I'll also acknowledge that plenty of HOAs probably do approve minutes without a vote.
But to my point, the guide to Roberts Rules allows that "approval" by silence only once people have actually weighed in by giving corrections and having the corrections made, and the once people have clearly consented to the minutes, with any corrections. So there's more to the story, in my view.
But to my point, the guide to Roberts Rules allows that "approval" by silence only once people have actually weighed in by giving corrections and having the corrections made, and the once people have clearly consented to the minutes, with any corrections. So there's more to the story, in my view.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
A correction to Minutes is valid and should be discussed. This chat was started by saying a BOD Member did not disagree with the correctness, but did disagree with an action the BOD voted to take. Two different issues.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Paul, please note what we and many Board of all kinds that use Roberts' Rules do: "Are there any amendments to the minutes of xx-xx-xxx?" This is when amendment may be made.
Get your point, JohnC. The real (or not) director who didn't like the decision so didn't approve the minute is wrong. Minutes are only corrected for the accuracy of their content.
Get your point, JohnC. The real (or not) director who didn't like the decision so didn't approve the minute is wrong. Minutes are only corrected for the accuracy of their content.
🎯 You've read this entire discussion
Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:
- ✓ Ask follow-up questions
- ✓ Share your experience
- ✓ Get expert advice
- ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →
⚡ Takes 30 seconds
Already a member? Log in here