Selling condo with hardwood floors installed without approval

Started by RichardB41 • 34 replies • 2243 views

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RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hi,

I've installed hard surface floor without HOA approval. CCR only allow soft surface floor (above 1st floor). Now, I'm going either to sell or rent this property.

How this will play out? Will I get forced to install carpet or can I pass liability to next owner in case I sell it?

Thank you,
-Richard

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am sure the buyer gets hit with a CC&R violation they going to go after you. It's best to ask for PERMISSION than FORGIVENESS. The renter isn't going to be responsible for the flooring situation. The HOA is going to come after you. Plus would not be surprised if the downstairs neighbor doesn't.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

I bought an apartment that had a washroom that had been installed without HOA approval. The purchase agreement contained a representation by the seller that all modifications to the apartment had been authorized. So I was able to sue the seller for breach of contract. I got a $5,000 judgment (in small claims court) but the buyer moved far away and it was a pain to collect on the judgment. But I got her SSN due to the judgment and was able to have it go on her credit report.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Yep, Richard.

With the others ... your violation of your governing docs is gonna bite you.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardB41 on 06/01/2020 4:06 PM
I've installed hard surface floor without HOA approval. CCR only allow soft surface floor (above 1st floor). Now, I'm going either to sell or rent this property. How this will play out? Will I get forced to install carpet

Has the HOA ever issued a notice of violation to you? How many years have passed? Have any downstairs neighbors complained about noise?

Quote:

Posted By RichardB41 on 06/01/2020 4:06 PM
or can I pass liability to next owner in case I sell it?

If no one knows about this illegal floor, you could continue to keep the illegal floor secret and not disclose it. The HOA will provide a disclosure statement to the buyer that will include the covenants that say no hard surface floor allowed in 2nd floor and higher units. Arguably this disclosure gives the buyer legal notice that your unit's floors violate the covenants. After the sale of your unit, the downstairs unit owners may complain. Can the new owner be forced to install carpeting? Yes. Can the new owner come after you for failing to disclose a violation, forcing you to pay some substantial amount to rectify the situation? Maybe.

This is all guess work. To maximize your protection, I suggest you disclose the situation to all potential buyers and see what happens next.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

With Augustin ... tell the truth? Good idea!

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Tell the truth,because not disclosing this can (and probably will) come back and bite you in the ass -as it should. Then see what the new owner wants to do. Maybe you can consider replacing the flooring before selling the unit or be prepared to drop the price to cover what the new owner would have to pay to bring the unit into compliance.

If your next home is a condo or in a HOA, take a moment to read the documents so you'll know what you can and can't do regarding exterior (and maybe interior) changes before you do it -and prevent shooting yourself in the foot next time.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Do you mean permission from HOA?

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Do you mean permission from HOA?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Yes you needed to apply for permission from the HOA before you started the project. They could have approved it or denied it. However, now they could make you remove it all.

Former HOA President

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

HOA has issued violation notice. It's been 2 years now. Downstairs neighbor complained, but we managed to settle with him. No compliance since then.

Yes, I was thinking to disclose this to potential buyer, but should I expect? Can HOA block from from selling the property because of violation? Can mortgage banks do that for the buyer too? If I disclose it and buyer would agree to have this risk, will I still be liable?

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I'm not sure if I ask for permission and forgiveness HOA will formally give it to me. Most likely, they won't do anything unless there's a complaint from someone.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

If your HOA manager is competent, she or he will disclose to the buyer that there is an outstanding violation. See for example: http://www.calassoc-hoa.com/Homeowners-Association/Docs-Disclosure-to-Prospective-Buyers.aspx . You may as well disclose this in the Seller's Disclosure as well.

As a matter of law, I do not believe the HOA can block the sale. But it can come after the new owner for the violation. I also do not think this is a mortgage concern. I expect the lender will see the violation as well.

I'd say that, if everything is disclosed, then the buyer is undertaking the purchase with eyes wide open, and you cannot be held liable subsequently.

I think you should disclose whatever settlement you made with the downstairs owner as well. If you are walking around in socks whenever home, disclose this.

Nationwide, hard surface floors above other units is a well known nuisance. Condo associations often order owners to rip out hard surface floors installed without permission. Permission should generally never be granted, in my opinion. The lawsuits over the noise from such floors are legion.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

I would also keep in mind that many owners are attracted to hard surface floors (tile, wood, faux wood). Some will be thrilled to have an upper level unit with a beautiful hard surface floor and be happy to have to do what is necessary to keep it. E.g. socks whenever home and being responsive to any complaints from downstairs. In my experience, unless there is a complaint from below, the OP's situation is not necessarily a disaster.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

While I try not to wish ill on others, the OP is apparently another “special” person.

I hope this is all documented - and, that the OP is held to account.

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I don't have any written settlements with neighbor. We agreed, that I put rugs in all rooms and that's pretty much it. Is there a practice to get written agreement?

Thanks for responses, Augustin. Very insightful.

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/01/2020 8:20 PM
While I try not to wish ill on others, the OP is apparently another “special” person.

I hope this is all documented - and, that the OP is held to account.

What is OP here?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardB41 on 06/01/2020 8:32 PM
I don't have any written settlements with neighbor. We agreed, that I put rugs in all rooms and that's pretty much it. Is there a practice to get written agreement?

I do not know of any such practices. I am aware of instances where a HOA conditions approval of a hard surface floor on there being no complaints from a downstairs neighbor. If there is a complaint, the owner agrees to rip out the floor.

In your shoes, in addition to disclosing that the hard surface floor is in violation of the covenants, I would disclose something like, "my downstairs neighbor and I have an informal agreement that rugs be used in all rooms. Since putting down the rugs, the neighbor has not complained of any noise."

"OP" means "Originating poster," or the person who started the thread (discussion).

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The HOA could place a lien on your property for that violation. Which would interfere with sale. The HOA in many states has a clause that they can remove the violation and send owner the bill. If unpaid that can be filed as a lien. Not that HOA can enter the home most likely of course. They can acknowledge the violation in such a way that it could be a fine or lien. How would vary on how books count it. Could apply to your dues making them look unpaid.

Former HOA President

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Got it. Thanks.

How this will play out with rent though? There will always be a risk of complaint later on while I will be renting this place, right? I can't get rid of this risk, right?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You are still responsible for your renter. What if they are practicing for a clogging contest? That neighbor has every right to approach the HOA and report the violation to them. Which means the HOA can come make you fix that violation.

Former HOA President

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Yeah, you can pass the problem to a new owner but it's a jerk move.

If you are renting and there is a complaint from the person downstairs, it will be up to you to correct the issue in some fashion. And dealing with violations involving a renter is more difficult since you will be accountable for the behavior of a third party whom you don't control.

Or you could, ya know, address the real issue right now. It's often less work and angst just doing the right thing. /smh

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

It doesn’t sound like the OP is interested in doing the right thing.

He is simply assessing his risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Well he already knows he did the wrong thing. He's just trying to find a way to ask for "forgiveness". I don't believe a hard wood floor always helps sell a home. Especially if having it is a violation of the rules. Plus having it on a floor above the 1st isn't ideal. I have a 2 story house. My upstairs is all carpeted except for bathroom and hallway. The noise level would drive me crazy.

Former HOA President

MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414

Posted:

Hi Richard,

I certainly wouldn't pass the issue onto the next owner (bad karma, and as others have noted, it could create a legal issue for you). You may be issued a fine, but more than likely, the board will ask you to install carpet.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Melissa,

Ya think he is trying to find a way to ask for forgiveness?

“How this will play out with rent though? There will always be a risk of complaint later on while I will be renting this place, right? I can't get rid of this risk, right?“

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardB41 on 06/01/2020 10:31 PM
How this will play out with rent though? There will always be a risk of complaint later on while I will be renting this place, right? I can't get rid of this risk, right?

Correct. You could put a term in your lease about noise complaints being grounds for termination of the lease. But how many times have to happen before a board orders the owner to tear out the unapproved floor? I say: Once, maybe twice.

GeorgeS21, when a board fails to follow up reasonably promptly on a violation, then it is failing miserably to follow the rules. The more time that goes by, and without a noise complaint, the better the chances a court would say the owner gets to keep the hard surface floor.

I know hard surface floors are a big deal. This is why I urge all boards given discretion to approve or disapprove such floors to issue a blanket disapproval in the HOA's/Condo's rules.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Are you sure that the covenants prohibit hard surface floors? All floors have a hard surface before placing carpet or rugs? I the covenants require carpet or rugs to cover the floor, it may be an easy fix.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Augustin,

This isn’t about the Board - it is about another special owner who knowingly broke the rules and is now looking for a way out without simply fixing the problem he caused.

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BenA2 on 06/02/2020 7:45 AM
Are you sure that the covenants prohibit hard surface floors? All floors have a hard surface before placing carpet or rugs? I the covenants require carpet or rugs to cover the floor, it may be an easy fix.

Yeah, in practice I do have rugs, but CCR doesn't specifically says it.

RichardB41 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2020 7:21 AM

Got it. Thank you, Augustin. Didn't know that noise complaint can be a part of agreement.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I believe that there are acoustic standards for different flooring types which vary by the construction of the building. The Davis-Stirling web site recommends that condo boards adopt higher acoustical standards for future remodels:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Acoustical-Guidelines

I've seen a number of condo declarations that require pre-approval for hard surface flooring or forbid it altogether for condos with downstairs neighbors. My declaration allows it for upper floors if the board approves of it - I just hate this since it sets the stage for future disputes, because no two boards see things the same way and will almost certainly treat homeowners differently. And waiting for a downstairs neighbor to complain also means that the same situation can either be A-OK or a violation, which may lead to the restriction being unenforceable because everything was hunky-dory for years until a new person moved in downstairs.

The flooring issue is avoidable altogether since there are so many products on the market nowadays that give buyers the look of hardwood or other hard surface flooring with the acoustic qualities of vinyl. And the stuff wears like iron, which is helpful if you have kids or rambunctious dogs. The builder I work for puts it into some of their pricier homes, which tells me its a desirable feature.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Richard

One of the documents needed in an HOA sale is a document from the HOA stating there are no existing issues/violations/fines, and all dues are up to date. If your buyer gets a "no problems report" the issue is over.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

John,

I might add the word “probably” ... as in “probably over.”

Given all the information available, it is possible a good attorney can connect all these dots.

ShirleyC (California)
Posts: 117

Posted:

From a previous Board member "Why did violate the rules"?

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