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BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Im a new board secretary, and under the bylaws part of my role is defined as, "...keep appropriate current records showing the Members of the Association together with their addresses." In an effort fulfill this duty I reached out to our Property Manager and requested he explain to me how we currently keep track of this information, like what software we use and how to use. The Property Manager replied the HOA pays him to keep track of that information, and that it is "considered confidential, only available at executive meetings for when an issue arises." I have been looking through the Arizona legal documentation but I cannot find what I'm looking for. Any help is appreciated.
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
I forgot to post an actual question - Is he right? Should I drop it?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Two things assured. Death and Taxes. Look at the Tax records to match up owners and addresses. It's public information. Your MC is probably paid for this service which then makes it private. However, a little work and you can do it yourself.

Former HOA President
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Ah - we are a self-run HOA who hire an individual property manager, not run by a management company. Only a few hundred units here, Condominium complex.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/08/2020 2:59 PM
Im a new board secretary, and under the bylaws part of my role is defined as, "...keep appropriate current records showing the Members of the Association together with their addresses." In an effort fulfill this duty I reached out to our Property Manager and requested he explain to me how we currently keep track of this information, like what software we use and how to use. The Property Manager replied the HOA pays him to keep track of that information, and that it is "considered confidential, only available at executive meetings for when an issue arises." I have been looking through the Arizona legal documentation but I cannot find what I'm looking for. Any help is appreciated.

The property manager works for the association at the direction and pleasure of the board. There is no information that the PM would have that should be kept confidential from the board. While the board can farm out duties (such as to a PM), directors and officers do not relinquish their responsibilities under the governing docs and relevant state and local laws.

In the real world, unfortunately many directors, and even MC/PMs don't seem to understand that. As far as your present issue, if you have the support of the board, the board collectively should communicate expectations to the PM to share the information with the board. If most of the board members don't want to rile the PM, then you have an uphill battle.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Fantasic, thank you. Unfortunately the rest of the board will probably not want to support me.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
This seems easy on the surface.

You are an Officer of the Board, a Board member, and a property owner.

Present yourself to the manager with the minutes of the Board meeting where you were elected and DEMAND access.

Don’t forget to have another Board member as witness, and, depending on your state laws, record the interaction.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/08/2020 3:06 PM
Two things assured. Death and Taxes. Look at the Tax records to match up owners and addresses. It's public information. Your MC is probably paid for this service which then makes it private. However, a little work and you can do it yourself.

WOW
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
in a condominium, owners have an absolute right to the master list of other owners... this is in texas.

i'm sick and tired of these managers who think they own the information..

what if the manager gets run over by a truck,, then how does the board access the list..

.. what state are you in,, and is it an hoa or coa?
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
sorry,, just saw you were from arizona..

here is this..

... Member lists are generally subject to inspection, though, under Arizona law, an association need not provide a member list if the requester has a commercial purpose. ............
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
arizona ,,more info..

https://www.lynchlegalfirm.com/Articles/Homeowners-Association-HOA-Rights.shtml
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 05/08/2020 9:21 PM
in a condominium, owners have an absolute right to the master list of other owners... this is in texas.

i'm sick and tired of these managers who think they own the information..

what if the manager gets run over by a truck,, then how does the board access the list..

.. what state are you in,, and is it an hoa or coa?

You're sick and tired? Really???

What information does the manager own? Hell, What information do you think the association owns?
You do realize that a owner list, for the most part is public information. I can find anyone that owns property in the country via a title search. As a manager or owner I own the software that stores the information.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
I think the board needs to set the property manager straight. Whether he is an employee or contractor, the manager works for the HOA and is maintaining the records for the HOA, he doesn't own them.

I believe in most states, owners' names and addresses can be requested by any member of the association but whether or not the records are confidential depends on your documents and state law. Even if the records are confidential, the secretary, at least, needs to have access.
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Wow, thank you all for the replies. I'm not sure our property manager acted alone, I think he was instructed to reply in that manner by another member of the board (but I have no evidence of this). Our board members strongly divided on political lines (republican/democrats) and it has is negatively impacting the ability of the board to function on many issues. I'd love to seek legal advice, but I'm just a volunteer and am afraid I do not personally have the money to do so. Thats one reason I appreciate all of you - thank you.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
markw..

i'm sick and tired of mc or managers or any board members that try and keep things secret, that flagrantly ignore transparency laws ..

Did you think I meant something different?
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I think you misunderstood.. I didn't say managers who own information.

i said managers who think they own..
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 05/09/2020 10:16 AM
I think you misunderstood.. I didn't say managers who own information.

i said managers who think they own..

You're on the Board, WHAT are YOU doing about it?
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
well,, i didn't start this thread..

I'm not on the board of the association whose manager is withholding the recorded owner list.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 05/09/2020 10:25 AM
well,, i didn't start this thread..

I'm not on the board of the association whose manager is withholding the recorded owner list.

So, you resigned?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Is this a condominium?

Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/08/2020 2:59 PM
Im a new board secretary, and under the bylaws part of my role is defined as, "...keep appropriate current records showing the Members of the Association together with their addresses." In an effort fulfill this duty I reached out to our Property Manager and requested he explain to me how we currently keep track of this information, like what software we use and how to use. The Property Manager replied the HOA pays him to keep track of that information,
The HOA does not pay him to violate the Bylaws. The Bylaws say you are to keep this record. I will grant that, if the manager says that you may review the records at any time to fulfill your Bylaw-required duty, this will likely suffice. But to be blunt, you have an idiot for a manager.

Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/08/2020 2:59 PM
and that it is "considered confidential, only available at executive meetings for when an issue arises."
If this manager is denying you or any member of the HOA the membership list based on the above then he is violating state statute.

As a nonprofit corporation, these Arizona statute sections say you are entitled to the membership lit with addresses:
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/10/11601.htm
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/10/11602.htm
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/10/11603.htm

If you are a condominium, see also https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/33/01258.htm

If you are not a condominium, see also https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/33/01805.htm

BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Oh my gosh, thank you... its going to take me a while to work through this.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Board,

This should take nearly zero time.

You know you have access as a Board member ... go get access. Make everything clear. Have witnesses.

Now, when you do this, you can't come across as some nutter - you must be adult, sincere and committed.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/09/2020 12:52 PM
Board,

This should take nearly zero time.

You know you have access as a Board member ... go get access. Make everything clear. Have witnesses.

Now, when you do this, you can't come across as some nutter - you must be adult, sincere and committed.

I would add that you should make this request in writing and cite the relevant parts of your governing docs and state law. There are two reasons for doing it in writing. One, many state HOA/condo laws require it. Two, you're creating a paper trail in case push comes to shove. The paper trail is essentially a witness and it seems to get people's attention a bit more.

I agree with others' comments: the PM works for and at the pleasure of the association, not the other way around. The whole comment about proprietary info is nonsense. The only way I could see that being relevant is if the PM works for a management company that developed its own software. The software itself would be proprietary, the homeowner information being maintained by the software is not (as others noted, much of it is public information and can be found on your country's web site).
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
So I have seen several comments about Public Records. Yes you are correct but since she is a Director of the HOA and the guy works for the HOA that hired him. Any answer other than here you go would be unacceptable.

You need to try as others have mentioned and do this the right way. Once you get it I would reminder this guy that our next PM will be much more responsive to this type of a request.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
There's no reason whatsoever why any owner or director/officer should have to paw through public records. The law's on your side, Board (wished you'd picked a different name). Make your request in writing to the PM, copy the rest of the board, give a reason for wanting them.

I really, really hope this PM is a certified property manager. If so, and push comes to shove, inform him that you will contact the credentialing agency to complain that he's not abiding by aZ statutes or your bylaws if he doesn't comply with them. If he's not credentialed, you HOA has a different problem.

Do make sure he know you only want the records, not the program he uses, which could be his.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/08/2020 3:08 PM
we are a self-run [condominium] who hire an individual property manager, not run by a management company.
Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/08/2020 3:21 PM
the rest of the board will probably not want to support me.
A single, new director, who lacks board majority support, threatening this employee's future prospects in any way sounds like a prescription for a disastrous year for this new director.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
If you read carefully, it sounds like the Board of which Board is one against four is dictating the terms of her viewing, not the PM.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Time for "Board" to be a director - tough to do but must be done.
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Thank you all - please do not spend any more of your valuable time researching this question, I feel guilty taking your time.

I received a call from the board President today, who bullied me and said I need to stick to my role as Secretary and only take notes at meetings. The President told me it is not my role to provide community improvement ideas to the board for consideration, and to know my place. After this call, and much consideration, I've decided to resign the position. If the board was set up in such a manner that all members had a voice on important decisions, a true 1:5 voting representation, then there would be a chance for me to make positive changes. However, the President has decided to make important community decisions without the input of the board (or certain members of the board) and is actively blocking my attempts to learn about the corporation. I believe the President and friends perceive me as a threat to their power over this community because I requested a voice in some decisions that are being made. I attempted to make it clear that even if I am out-voted, that is OK, as long as I am heard. Today, the board has no defined method of determining which decisions the President can make alone, which ones require board input via email, and which need to be voted on in a public meeting. I genuinely want to make the community a better place, but I simply cannot do so with the way it is set up today. There is extraordinarily little or no positive impact I can make in this role. Instead, my goal is to find an avenue to volunteer in an environment where my input is valued.

Thank you all.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
The board is set up like all boards.

It’s hard work.

Sorry, but if you allowed the prez to bully you, it’s sad.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Board,

Is there a chance you were not elected as a director, but as a non director secretary?
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
"Allowed to Bully" in so far as I refused to engage with that behavior. I chose to remain professional.

And no, I was an elected official, put on the ballot and voted by my neighbors.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/09/2020 8:45 PM
The board is set up like all boards.

It’s hard work.

Sorry, but if you allowed the prez to bully you, it’s sad.

Quicksand ring a bell?
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/09/2020 8:47 PM
Board,

Is there a chance you were not elected as a director, but as a non director secretary?

It keeps getting deeper.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
mark,, no i didn't resign,

I'm not the board..

I believe you asked,,

You're on the board what are you going to do about it.

this lack of transparency doesn't happen anymore on our board.. I have been insisting on transparency for the past 2 years..
several boards were voted out..
the current board ,, even though there are heated disagreements, everyone knows that the law is the law.. noone is going to prevent another board member or owner from accessing information that is by law supposed to be available for review.

I go out of my way to insist the board follow the requirements for board decisions and I also have no been afraid to speak up when i felt the board was acting outside of their legal authority.

And i kept speaking up, . This resulted in a lot of animosity towards me, I find that people that are taking shortcuts don't want to hear why they aren't allowed to do what they were doing..

anyway,, in answer to your question.. i'm still on the board.

After finally getting rid of the previous incompetent property manager. and the president taking a step back and not trying to dictate everything. things are going much better..
there are still operational issues.. but it's way way way better than it was just 3 months ago..
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/09/2020 8:04 PM
Thank you all - please do not spend any more of your valuable time researching this question, I feel guilty taking your time.

I received a call from the board President today, who bullied me and said I need to stick to my role as Secretary and only take notes at meetings. The President told me it is not my role to provide community improvement ideas to the board for consideration, and to know my place. After this call, and much consideration, I've decided to resign the position. If the board was set up in such a manner that all members had a voice on important decisions, a true 1:5 voting representation, then there would be a chance for me to make positive changes. However, the President has decided to make important community decisions without the input of the board (or certain members of the board) and is actively blocking my attempts to learn about the corporation. I believe the President and friends perceive me as a threat to their power over this community because I requested a voice in some decisions that are being made. I attempted to make it clear that even if I am out-voted, that is OK, as long as I am heard. Today, the board has no defined method of determining which decisions the President can make alone, which ones require board input via email, and which need to be voted on in a public meeting. I genuinely want to make the community a better place, but I simply cannot do so with the way it is set up today. There is extraordinarily little or no positive impact I can make in this role. Instead, my goal is to find an avenue to volunteer in an environment where my input is valued.

Thank you all.

No surprise, but your president is mis-informed. All board members have a say in all issues that the board decides - the president's vote doesn't count any more than anyone else's. It's a bit ironic that he's insisting that you stick to your secretarial duties, since one of them is communicating with the membership, and how can you do that without names, addresses and other contact info? He's undermining his own mistaken beliefs.

I can't remember who said it, but someone once commented that people who try to stifle others' ideas are people who don't have many ideas of their own.

That said, it's not unusual to have an enthusiastic new board member with lots of ideas, but the ideas are outside of the scope of the board's stated roles or authority. Or the ideas require new spending and the budget is already committed down to the last penny - new ideas require new funding. Or the new ideas would violate some state or federal law that new board members are unaware of. Or there are unintended consequences to these "new" ideas that experienced board members know about but the rookie does not.

I was in your board president's position a few years ago. We had a new board member who had no business experience and had no idea of what the directors of corporations actually do. But boy, did she ever have ideas, but without a clue as to how to pay for them (and she was furious at things we did to reduce expenses, such as holding off on minor repairs and doing a single bulk bid once a year to get best pricing). Or she wanted to fix things that weren't problems or do things that the board had no legal authority to do. And she was furious that the PM didn't ignore the board's vote and do what she wanted instead. In her mind, she had as much right to tell the PM what to do as the others did - she actually called up the owner of the property management company and complained that our PM wouldn't ignore the board's vote and do what she wanted instead (I swear I am not making this up).

If this is your first year on your first community association board, you have an unbelievable amount to learn and your first order of business is to do so. Don't forget about your new ideas, but start to re-evaluate them as you learn more about what an association board really does and the limitations of HOA finances. If you're a rookie and you don't feel like you're in over your head a good part of the time, then you're not learning.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/10/2020 5:28 AM
Posted By BoardM3 on 05/09/2020 8:04 PM
Thank you all - please do not spend any more of your valuable time researching this question, I feel guilty taking your time.

I received a call from the board President today, who bullied me and said I need to stick to my role as Secretary and only take notes at meetings. The President told me it is not my role to provide community improvement ideas to the board for consideration, and to know my place. After this call, and much consideration, I've decided to resign the position. If the board was set up in such a manner that all members had a voice on important decisions, a true 1:5 voting representation, then there would be a chance for me to make positive changes. However, the President has decided to make important community decisions without the input of the board (or certain members of the board) and is actively blocking my attempts to learn about the corporation. I believe the President and friends perceive me as a threat to their power over this community because I requested a voice in some decisions that are being made. I attempted to make it clear that even if I am out-voted, that is OK, as long as I am heard. Today, the board has no defined method of determining which decisions the President can make alone, which ones require board input via email, and which need to be voted on in a public meeting. I genuinely want to make the community a better place, but I simply cannot do so with the way it is set up today. There is extraordinarily little or no positive impact I can make in this role. Instead, my goal is to find an avenue to volunteer in an environment where my input is valued.

Thank you all.


No surprise, but your president is mis-informed. All board members have a say in all issues that the board decides - the president's vote doesn't count any more than anyone else's. It's a bit ironic that he's insisting that you stick to your secretarial duties, since one of them is communicating with the membership, and how can you do that without names, addresses and other contact info? He's undermining his own mistaken beliefs.

I can't remember who said it, but someone once commented that people who try to stifle others' ideas are people who don't have many ideas of their own.

That said, it's not unusual to have an enthusiastic new board member with lots of ideas, but the ideas are outside of the scope of the board's stated roles or authority. Or the ideas require new spending and the budget is already committed down to the last penny - new ideas require new funding. Or the new ideas would violate some state or federal law that new board members are unaware of. Or there are unintended consequences to these "new" ideas that experienced board members know about but the rookie does not.

I was in your board president's position a few years ago. We had a new board member who had no business experience and had no idea of what the directors of corporations actually do. But boy, did she ever have ideas, but without a clue as to how to pay for them (and she was furious at things we did to reduce expenses, such as holding off on minor repairs and doing a single bulk bid once a year to get best pricing). Or she wanted to fix things that weren't problems or do things that the board had no legal authority to do. And she was furious that the PM didn't ignore the board's vote and do what she wanted instead. In her mind, she had as much right to tell the PM what to do as the others did - she actually called up the owner of the property management company and complained that our PM wouldn't ignore the board's vote and do what she wanted instead (I swear I am not making this up).

If this is your first year on your first community association board, you have an unbelievable amount to learn and your first order of business is to do so. Don't forget about your new ideas, but start to re-evaluate them as you learn more about what an association board really does and the limitations of HOA finances. If you're a rookie and you don't feel like you're in over your head a good part of the time, then you're not learning.

Sound advice.

SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Is there a reason you want a list of members with addresses?

Remember that your job is to make sure that there is an accurate membership list with addresses , not that you have to do this task or keep a copy. The MC is trying to assure you that there is an accurate list. An audit would answer this question if you doubt the MC is not tracking memberships.
BoardM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 27
Posted:
Thank you CathyA3 that is great advice.

SueW6 - I apologize if my original post was not clear, I was attempting to learn how the HOA as an Organization keeps track of the information. I do not see how one can accomplish that without understanding the systems and seeing how they work.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
What I did when I joined the Board of my past neighborhood was to get access to the online data system - then methodically go through all 314 properties to see if the MC was doing a perfect job, good job, etc.

I found they were about 90% correct - and, we updated the material in their records and in the smartwebs data system we use. (as an aside, when I joined the board of my rental neighborhood, I found their records were about 65% accurate)

Had the MC told me I couldn't have the information, or access to the database, I would have immediately notified them of this issue in writing, with copies to all the other board members. Then, I would have notified the owner of the company via personal correspondence. Then, I would have notified the licensing authority.

Letting crazy behavior stand is never a good idea.

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