💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

PatriciaL1 (California)
Posts: 78
Posted:
I understand that our management company keeps records of owners. And this can (is) used for the purpose of knowing who is eligible to vote and serve on the Board.

The question I have relates to maintenance of these records. If someone marries, divorces, etc. then what? Deed gets changed and the homeowner technically has the responsibility of sneind the new dee to the management company so there is now a new person who can (or cannot) vote or run for office.

But if the deed is held by a trust, pretty common over here, then how does the management company know who is eligible to run/vote without knowing the contents of the trust?

I'm asking this because I have a new Board member who has questioned the rights of a homeowner. Until now there has been no problem, no discussion. He wants the management company to update the list of all owners. Owners can and should send changes over the the management company but if you want proof.... then what? I can't imagine they have a right to look into trust documents to see who the "human owners" are?

What am I missing?
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
I use the information from the grant deed to determine ownership when I had taken on new properties. If a home is transferred through a sale, I would always request a copy of the grant deed, as this would also show who is responsible for payment of the mortgage and ultimately the dues. Getting quitclaimed to a property means nothing to mean or the attorneys I have opinion from.

Maintaining that list on a regular basis is not something I or any MC I know would do on a regular basis. If there is a specific instance where someone needs to be verified, that is relatively easy to do.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Can you tell us, Patricia, what rights concern the director about this Owner?

My (incomplete) understanding of CA's new Election Legislation, eff. 1/1/20, is that only the owner of record (a member) may run for the board. Is that the issue?
PatriciaL1 (California)
Posts: 78
Posted:
Yes, I figured you could get a deed on the original purchase of the property, but after that, specifically with formation of a trust, doesn't the deed change? Then the homeowner "should" send an updated copy? But with a trust, then isn't the deed held by the trust and so the specific property owner becomes more difficult to know?

Running for the Board would be one of the *rights. Voting, another.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
The trust doesn't change anything. All the trust is doing is keeping the property out of probate.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I'm not a lawyer, but trusts can be complicated things, and I think it makes a difference what type of trust you're dealing with. In general, when a property is owned by a non-person legal entity (such as a trust or LLC), there can be several people who may act as agents of that entity and could have the right to vote or sit on the board.

For example, if the grantor still lives in the property, it's possible that either he/she or or one of the trustees (who has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the grantor) could vote and run for the board.

Here is some basic info about trusts:

https://estate.findlaw.com/trusts/trusts-an-overview.html.

For anything more complicated than this, you may need to consult a lawyer who deals with these things.
JohnG46 (New Jersey)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Regarding the members list, If a member of the association requests to see the list, what information should be included on the list? What class member? how many properties they own? whether they are paid up or not? block and lot? I've been asking for over a year to see this list, which in NJ I should be entitled to under Title 15A and PREFDA but I have a feeling when I finally see it, it won't have all the information I'm entitled on it.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnG46 on 04/30/2020 3:50 PM
Regarding the members list, If a member of the association requests to see the list, what information should be included on the list? What class member? how many properties they own? whether they are paid up or not? block and lot? I've been asking for over a year to see this list, which in NJ I should be entitled to under Title 15A and PREFDA but I have a feeling when I finally see it, it won't have all the information I'm entitled on it.

Name and mailing address. That would be it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I don't know about NJ, but MarkW's probably right.

In CA, it's, eff. 1/1/20, name, mailing address, HOA address(es, when they own more than one in an HOA) and email address. Some of the things you want to see, JohnG, are confidential in CA and I think most states.
JohnG46 (New Jersey)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Here is information from NJ statute:

15A:5-24. Books and records; right of inspection
a. Each corporation shall keep books and records of account and minutes of the proceedings of its members and board and executive committee, if any. Unless otherwise provided in the bylaws, the books, records and minutes may be kept outside this State. The corporation shall make available for inspection at its registered office, in this State, or at its principal office if it is in this State, records containing the names and addresses of all members, the number, class and series of memberships held by each and the dates when they respectively became members of record thereof, within 10 days after demand by a member entitled to inspect them, as defined in subsection c. of this section. The foregoing books, minutes or records may be in written form or in any other form capable of being converted into written form within a reasonable time. A corporation shall convert into written form without charge any records not in that form, upon the written request of any person entitled to inspect them.

b. Upon the written request of any member, the corporation shall mail to that member its balance sheet as at the end of the preceding fiscal year, and its statement of income and expenses for that fiscal year.

c. Any person who shall have been a member of record of a corporation for at least 6 months immediately preceding that person's demand, or any person holding, or so authorized in writing by the members holding, at least 5% of the memberships of any class or series, upon at least 5 days' written demand, shall have the right for any proper purpose to examine in person or by agent or attorney, during usual business hours, its minutes of the proceedings of its members and record of members and to make extracts therefrom, at the places where the same are kept pursuant to subsection a. of this section.

d. This section shall not impair the right of any court, upon proof of a member of proper purpose, irrespective of the period of time during which the member shall have been a member of record, and irrespective of the total number of memberships held by that person, to compel the production for examination by the member of the books and records of account, minutes and record of members of a corporation.

L.1983, c. 127, s. 15A:5-24, eff. Oct. 1, 1983.

Also under Title 46:8B-14(g):

46:8B-14. Responsibilities of association
14. The association, acting through its officers or governing board, shall be responsible for the performance of the following duties, the costs of which shall be common expenses:
(a) The maintenance, repair, replacement, cleaning and sanitation of the common elements.

(b) The assessment and collection of funds for common expenses and the payment thereof.

(c) The adoption, distribution, amendment and enforcement of rules governing the use and operation of the condominium and the condominium property and the use of the common elements, including but not limited to the imposition of reasonable fines, assessments and late fees upon unit owners, if authorized by the master deed or bylaws, subject to the right of a majority of unit owners to change any such rules.

(d) The maintenance of insurance against loss by fire or other casualties normally covered under broad-form fire and extended coverage insurance policies as written in this State, covering all common elements and all structural portions of the condominium property and the application of the proceeds of any such insurance to restoration of such common elements and structural portions if such restoration shall otherwise be required under the provisions of this act or the master deed or bylaws.

(e) The maintenance of insurance against liability for personal injury and death for accidents occurring within the common elements whether limited or general and the defense of any actions brought by reason of injury or death to person, or damage to property occurring within such common elements and not arising by reason of any act or negligence of any individual unit owner.

(f) The master deed or bylaws may require the association to protect blanket mortgages, or unit owners and their mortgagees, as their respective interest may appear, under the policies of insurance provided under clauses (d) and (e) of this section, or against such risks with respect to any or all units, and may permit the assessment and collection from a unit owner of specific charges for insurance coverage applicable to his unit.

(g) The maintenance of accounting records, in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles, open to inspection at reasonable times by unit owners. Such records shall include:

(i) A record of all receipts and expenditures.

(ii) An account for each unit setting forth any shares of common expenses or other charges due, the due dates thereof, the present balance due, and any interest in common surplus.

(h) Nothing herein shall preclude any unit owner or other person having an insurable interest from obtaining insurance at his own expense and for his own benefit against any risk whether or not covered by insurance maintained by the association.

(i) Such other duties as may be set forth in the master deed or bylaws.

(j) An association shall exercise its powers and discharge its functions in a manner that protects and furthers or is not inconsistent with the health, safety and general welfare of the residents of the community.

(k) An association shall provide a fair and efficient procedure for the resolution of housing-related disputes between individual unit owners and the association, and between unit owners, which shall be readily available as an alternative to litigation. A person other than an officer of the association, a member of the governing board or a unit owner involved in the dispute shall be made available to resolve the dispute. A unit owner may notify the Commissioner of Community Affairs if an association does not comply with this subsection. The commissioner shall have the power to order the association to provide a fair and efficient procedure for the resolution of disputes.

L.1969,c.257,s.14; amended 1995, c.313, s.1; 1996, c.79, s.2.

What is your interpretation of the above regarding member list?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I thought Patricia, OP, was from California?
PatriciaL1 (California)
Posts: 78
Posted:
Yes, California
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatriciaL1 on 04/30/2020 2:25 PM
Yes, I figured you could get a deed on the original purchase of the property, but after that, specifically with formation of a trust, doesn't the deed change? Then the homeowner "should" send an updated copy? But with a trust, then isn't the deed held by the trust and so the specific property owner becomes more difficult to know?

Running for the Board would be one of the *rights. Voting, another.


This is part of a newsletter I receive from an attorney office that came this morning.

A board member is allowing his girlfriend to make decisions on the building's rehab work. He said he added her to trust but we have not seen evidence of that. She states he gave her power of attorney so, therefore, she is an owner. Is this valid? -Bill J.

RESPONSE: No, none of it is valid. Your board member is exhibiting poor judgment. A power of attorney does not make his girlfriend an owner. Nor does making her a beneficiary in his trust. The board is in charge of the building's rehab, not his girlfriend.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/01/2020 7:18 AM
Posted By PatriciaL1 on 04/30/2020 2:25 PM
Yes, I figured you could get a deed on the original purchase of the property, but after that, specifically with formation of a trust, doesn't the deed change? Then the homeowner "should" send an updated copy? But with a trust, then isn't the deed held by the trust and so the specific property owner becomes more difficult to know?

Running for the Board would be one of the *rights. Voting, another.



This is part of a newsletter I receive from an attorney office that came this morning.

A board member is allowing his girlfriend to make decisions on the building's rehab work. He said he added her to trust but we have not seen evidence of that. She states he gave her power of attorney so, therefore, she is an owner. Is this valid? -Bill J.

RESPONSE: No, none of it is valid. Your board member is exhibiting poor judgment. A power of attorney does not make his girlfriend an owner. Nor does making her a beneficiary in his trust. The board is in charge of the building's rehab, not his girlfriend.

I agree that a board member cannot pass on their duties with a power of attorney but a homeowner is a different story. I suspect that it would be legal in most states.

I'm not sure why anyone would require proof. If a homeowner attests that another person is a co-owner, that would be good enough for me (although I would get it in writing). They still only get one vote. From a legal standpoint, property ownership can change without paperwork, at least in some states.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Property Ownership can't change without paperwork. Maybe security in the property can. People think a quitclaim gives them ownership rights, it doesn't. It gives them a security interest in the property. Legal ownership is how the property was vested at the beginning. You declare that when filling out the Fannie Mae 1003 form, Title will be held in what Name(s). The way to legally change is add them or take them off through a refinance. Those names are on the Promissary Note signed at closing.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/30/2020 4:13 PM
In CA, it's, eff. 1/1/20, name, mailing address, HOA address(es, when they own more than one in an HOA) and email address. Some of the things you want to see, JohnG, are confidential in CA and I think most states.

And in Florida it's name, parcel identification within the HOA, and mailing address. If the owner has consented in writing to receive association notices by electronic transmission (i.e. email) then the owner's email address may be shown on the roster as well.

In my county, at least, whenever a property is deeded to a trust there's a new deed recorded with the county. A warranty deed, for example, between "David Abc, a single person, Grantor" ... and "David Abc, Trustee of the David Abc Trust dated March 19, 2010, the post office address for which is ..., Grantee."

There are hundreds of deeds like this recorded every month in my county. Most trusts are for avoiding probate, but every time ownership passes into or out of a trust, there seems to be a new deed that's recorded. I'd post an example but there's so much redaction needed the document would be unrecognizable.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
I just did a revocable trust last December. I don't technically own the property as my wife is on title and on the mortgage note. The trust just gives me security interest in the property, which has nothing to do with either making the mortgage or HOA dues, if I were to live in an HOA.

It is called a Trust Transfer Deed

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here