why is it so hard to get people

Started by LaskaS • 41 replies • 940 views

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LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

I am frustrated. The bylaws are clear. the responsibilities are clear. Yet noone wants to put in the work to make sure the system is functioning as it should be.

Board members give their opinion but aren't willing to do any of the hard work.... .. They think showing up at a meeting once a month is enough.

I am amazed at how many people will do as little as possible and think it's ok..

all of the owners are shareholders.. yet people don't seem to get it.

ok,,i'm venting. ..

Noone forced people to join the board,, if they don't want to do any work. then they should get the heck out.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 04/29/2020 5:44 PM
I am frustrated. The bylaws are clear. the responsibilities are clear. Yet noone wants to put in the work to make sure the system is functioning as it should be.

Board members give their opinion but aren't willing to do any of the hard work.... .. They think showing up at a meeting once a month is enough.

I am amazed at how many people will do as little as possible and think it's ok..

all of the owners are shareholders.. yet people don't seem to get it.

ok,,i'm venting. ..

Noone forced people to join the board,, if they don't want to do any work. then they should get the heck out.

They won't like it when there are no owners serving on the board and your assessments are increased because you're in receivership and people with no skin in the game are making monetary decisions on your community.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

I almost think receivership would be better, at least they are required to follow the legal requirements regarding documentation and record keeping.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

wait,, i misspoke,, I didn't consider the part about people with no skin in the game making monetary decisions.. that won't work.

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Reminds me of a quote I've heard and taken to heart . . . "The best way to avoid disappointment is to not expect anything from anyone."

While I think your intentions are good, unfortunately your expectations of others are not realistic. You will continually be frustrated if you expect others to do the same as you. And I can only judge by what I see you post here, but perhaps the tactics you take with fellow Board Members and your rapid-fire ideas, topics, questions, comments, and feedback are worsening the overall situation for you and increasing the divide between you and the others.

It might also help to look at some psychology of expectations . . . https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cui-bono/201802/the-psychology-expectations

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

I should add that I don't disagree with you. I've just learned through experiences similar to yours that nobody will care as much as you do about trying to do what you think is right. You need to set achievable goals, establish priorities, adjust expectations, refocus efforts, gain support/buy-in . . . be satisfied with whatever happens . . . and figure out how to continually fine-tune this approach.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

In any volunteer organization, 10% of the people do 90% of the work. That's how it often is in nonprofits. HOAs are no exception.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

ND. thanks for your response.. Regarding expectations. I totally agree that unrealistic expectations. or non communicated expectations often lead to conflict and disappointment.

I do however think that having expectations that are clearly outlined in the hoa declarations, bylaws etc isn't unreasonable. And then, when I point out that the bylaws or declaration aren't being followed,, or I tell the board,"you can't just rubberstamp an increase in the landscape contract if you haven't even seen the contract."..

I'm disheartened that seemingly smart people just accept the status quo ,, don't bother even checking details on exisiting contracts. etc.

hoa boards change all the time.. so it's a ripe opportunity for vendors and or monthly recurring charges to the hoa to continue , often without just checking the details.

Again,it's a matter of due diligence. .. If someone wants to never check their own bank statements, and doesn't care that people they personally hire are held to any kind of standard..then that's on them.

But , the whole point of a board and having the fiduciary responsibility to oversee the operations of the hoa etc. is so that someone is paying attention to detail..! the board are supposd to be the ones who check that the t;s are cross and i's are dotted for the hoa..

anyway,. I don't think my expectations are unreasonable. I really don't. However.. I have come to realize(thanks in large part to feedback on this forum) that my expectations are setting me up to be disappointed.

again,, it's not that I think that I have all the answers.. or that my way is the best way..that's not true at all.. I do think that the board has a duty to investigate and understand the specifics of things that affect the hoa .. informed decision making,, .

It seems to obvious.. yet.. i get pushback when I ask questions .. or when i discover something fishy.. people would rather not know.. ,,,....

i'm not talking about optional. subjective decisions.. i'm talking about contracts.. monthly recurring fees that seemingly lead to nowhere. employees not being required to use a time clock of any kind,, despite continued reports of employees not being on property when they are supposed to be.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Just curios, Laska. does your HOA have a lot of direct employees (who work directly for the HOA and not a vendor)? If so, are you saying the HOA board should vote to install time clocks? Why kinds of "employees" are supposed to be on your premises at certain times?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

hi,, yes we have 4 employees..

3 maintenance men and an office manager..

we also contract with a security company who are on the property at night,, there have been several comments about them arriving late, or leaving early...so we wanted them to also log in to a timeclock..

the 3 maintenance workers are supposed to get here at 7 am and work til 4.. with a one hour lunch from 1-2.

the office manager is supposed to get here at 8 and work til 5 with a lunch from 1-2

currently the maintenance guys manually fill in a time sheet once every two week.. they just write.. 8 8 8 8 8 for every day.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So why is this the HOA's issue with those employees? They aren't your direct employees. They are the company your HOA hired to do the work problem. A time clock is up to their company. I've worked in a few places with time clocks and did not resolve much of anything.

Not sure if you have a job in real life or not. Work doesn't always run by a time clock. Conditions change. Employees may have made arrangement with their employer to leave early or come in late. You don't know. Do you know their workload and what they need to get done when?

Seriously need to stop with the ankle-biting...

Former HOA President

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Laska,
I am more on your side than Melissa's here. You have every right to expect employees to be onsite when they are required. In our case which is different from your we have loose PM onsite hours 20 Hours a week. That being said I see him onsite after the required hours and on weekends often. So I consider his job using some Flex time and I know we are getting our moneys worth. Regarding maintenance men that is a completely different story. These employees should clock in IMO. If you are using any card access to your amenity areas it is very easy to ask them to swipe their fob on entry and when they are leaving for the day. Simply run a Fob report and that is their hours for the payroll period. If they can come and go without supervision you can expect it to deteriorate over time. They Human and if they do not have anyone watching Human nature kicks in and they will take advantage.

As a Board member I feel it is my Job to Manage but Not Micro Manage the Staff.

Regarding expectations yours may be higher than they will ever meet. That is something that you will learn over time. People will disappoint and that is life.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

So....who is in charge of supervising your maintenance men since they don't work for a company. The board president? The office mgr.? (Still not clear what she does for your HOA).

Did your board vote to ask the security company to install a time clock for its employees? Or will your board vote to pay & install one?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

mellissa,,, the employees are our hoa's employees.

we do not have a managment company per se... we have a company that does our accoutning..

all maintenance and onsite property manager are full time employees of our association.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

mellissa.

you are incredibly rude.

I am oh the board..,, we have a brand new on site property manager who seems to be doing a good job in certain areas. however.. its now clear ,,she has not created any kind of documentation of mainteance records and or employees(that she oversees) hours.

It's not ankle biting to expect an hourly mainteance employee who's scheduled hours are from 7-4 to be here from 7-4.. hourly employees by definition get paid by the hour.. geez./

as a matter of fact.. maintenance staff should not be working after scheduled hours.. that would expose the hoa to liability of they are injured..our property insureance which includes employees..doesn't cover flex time.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

melissa.

from the question in your post. I realized you didn't clearly read and understand the specifcs.

the employees are our employees not some management company.

the board hired them.
the board hired an onsite property manager.

if the maintenance men are scheduled to work from 7-4... but the property manager(whose job it is to oversee the maintenance staff).. does not come to work until 8 am..

AND several residents have indicated to the board that the maintenance staff arrive late.. and leave early..

The obvious easy solution would be to have a time clock.

the board voted and approved this.

The maintenance men don't think they should have to start clocking in after years of not having to..

my frustration is that somehow,, the property manager and maintenance staff have still not started using the purchased timeclock..

the excuse was covid germs.. WTF

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Laska,

How much longer will you continue to do this?

Buckle down and work it ...

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am still confused. Do these maintenance and manager get a 1099 form? Are they licensed and insured. They aren't their own company? So they aren't a company hired by the HOA? That is a bit strange and out of the norm. Usually a HOA doesn't hire direct employees. They hire a company that handles all this stuff for them.

Not sure I would want a HOA to be someone's boss other than the group that hired a company to do it...

Former HOA President

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

mellissa.. we are a condominium community,,

the 4 employees of the hoa are paid for by the hoa.. not by the managment company,, i don't know how much clearer i can be

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So they get a 1099 form from the HOA? Who is their direct supervisor in the HOA? If the HOA hired them, then whom on the board is their direct supervisor?

Former HOA President

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

no,,they get a w-2... our hoa is a non-profit corporation for tax purposes..

the property manager oversees and manages the maintenance staff

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Okay so why are you tellimg a company you hired how to do their job? It is not your HOA responsibilt. It is the management company whom they work for.

I am trying to point out the relationship here. You do not have the right to demand time clocks. That is not in scope. Unless your HOA is their DIRECT employer then they are not your employees.

Former HOA President

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

is this real life?

mellissa.. we don't have a management company..

we have 4 employees, 3 maintenance staff and 1 property manager..

the board hired the employees..

the manager works under the direction of the board.
the manger we hired supervises the maintenance employees

geez.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

let me repeat again melissa

the hoa is direct employer...
there is no management company..

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Okay so this is still the Manager's job to manage the employees NOT the HOA's...

Anyone else see it differently besides LASKA?

It's like I hire a housekeeping company to keep my house. That Housekeeping company has 4 employees exclusive to my use. 2 of the employees are always late. Can I demand those employees to punch a time clock in my house? Is that the House keeping company's job to do it?

Former HOA President

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

I see this as a never ending story with no clear end-state.

Apparently, the Board, writ large, does not agree with Laska?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

melissa,

the board provides the guidelines for the manager to follow..

if you hired a cleaning company and were paying for 4 workers for 5 hours over two consecutive days..
you're darn right you can ask for some kind of documentation that all 4 workers were there 5 hours both days.
you don't have to oversee them cleaning.. that's the managers job,, but you can absolutely require verification for hours your a paying for.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Still NOPE. It is the Manager's job not the HOA's. The HOA's job is to work with the Manager to make sure they are doing their job. Your still atleast 1 - 2 degrees from these workers...

Former HOA President

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

melissa,,

i agree,, the managers job is to manage the employees,,however.. the board voted and approved the use of a time clock to be purchased and utilized by all hoa employees..

the manager was required to implement it and instruct the guys to use it..

when the board asks a month later, to see the time clock reports(easily printed out)
the manager hems and haws and gives excuses as to why she hasn't started using it..

in my mind, this is unacceptable.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

The job of managing the HOA's maintenance employees needs to be clearly spelled out in the job description of the property manager. If not, then it is the association's responsibility, through its elected board.

The responsibility of managing the property manager then falls on the association through its elected board of directors. If the board feels a time clock is necessary, so be it.

Who handles your payroll? The manager or an outside company?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I've been confused about Laska's manager's duties, too, which s/he sometimes calls an "office manager."

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It sounds like they hired an individual to manage the HOA but is not considered a Property Manager. So that person works directly for the HOA and whomever they hired gets final approval from the board. Which I am still confused on exactly whom pays the salary of these 4 employees and Manager. Seems to me the HOA pays the Manager out of their budget and that manager then pays the 4 employees out of their company funds. So I don't see how the HOA can tell those employees what to do if they hired a Manager to do it.

Former HOA President

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/08/2020 7:19 PM
It sounds like they hired an individual to manage the HOA but is not considered a Property Manager. So that person works directly for the HOA and whomever they hired gets final approval from the board. Which I am still confused on exactly whom pays the salary of these 4 employees and Manager. Seems to me the HOA pays the Manager out of their budget and that manager then pays the 4 employees out of their company funds. So I don't see how the HOA can tell those employees what to do if they hired a Manager to do it.

Again, WOW

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

omg, are you serious melissa.

the 4 employees are all paid out of the hoa budget,.

the onsite property manager and the 3 maintenance staff..

the hoa,, is run by the an elected board.

the board interviews and hires all employees of the hoa!

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

mark,, i don't want to confuse melissa ..

the property,office, community manager(all the same thing)
turns in the payroll of all 3 maintenance employees plus her own payroll sheet to the accounting company.

any bills or payroll submitted by the office manager is submitted to accounting, if accounting sees nothing unusual., accounting uploads it to strongroom(an online third party portal). then the treasurer will get notification to review and approve it..

our condominiums have 4 full time employees that are all employees of the hoa..

the board can fire the manager,,and this does not affect the 3 maintenance staff... all are independent of eachother..

this couldn't be that unusual of a setup.. we are a condominium community.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 05/08/2020 9:14 PM
this couldn't be that unusual of a setup.. we are a condominium community.

No, but not a cost saving, efficient system. Just my professional opinion.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

In our case. Because its an older property. At some point in the past 20 years the board chose to have it's own full time employees.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 05/09/2020 10:19 AM
In our case. Because its an older property. At some point in the past 20 years the board chose to have it's own full time employees.

I know this is going to sound like a strange concept, but it can change back, or just change to something better.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 05/08/2020 9:39 PM

Posted By LaskaS on 05/08/2020 9:14 PM
this couldn't be that unusual of a setup.. we are a condominium community.

No, but not a cost saving, efficient system. Just my professional opinion.

regarding not efficient.....are you referring to the full time employees of the hoa
or the way i described the payroll.. payment system?

if it's the accounting system,, I probably explained it wrong..

we use strongroom.. for our payments and billing..
2 person approval required before the accounting company makes a payment .

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Why not get the owner list from the accounting company?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

wrong thread mark..

the owner list or lack thereof was the topic of another thread started by an hoa member frustrated that she can't get access to the list, which is clearly by law available to all members of an hoa in arizona.. upon request..etc.

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