board director - personal agenda

Started by KevinK15 • 24 replies • 697 views

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KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hi.

I have a lady in our board who keep bring up her personal agenda and makes motion on them in every meeting.
For example, if she does not like her neighbor playing music in their backyard, she makes a motion to make a rule that bans any music play in the backyard throughout the community.

I feel that this is not right. How do I explain her that what she does is not acceptable or even illegal? I see this as her over-using her power as a board director to benefit only herself. That is why I think this is wrong.
Is there any law that says this is illegal, specially in California?

If you are not on the board, you have to submit complaint with HOA and I feel that she need to do the same.
How would you convince her that what she does is not right? (conflict of interest maybe????)
I am looking through davis-stirling.com but can't find relevant section that I can apply to this case.

Please help!

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 12:15 PM
Hi.

I have a lady in our board who keep bring up her personal agenda and makes motion on them in every meeting.
For example, if she does not like her neighbor playing music in their backyard, she makes a motion to make a rule that bans any music play in the backyard throughout the community.

I feel that this is not right. How do I explain her that what she does is not acceptable or even illegal? I see this as her over-using her power as a board director to benefit only herself. That is why I think this is wrong.
Is there any law that says this is illegal, specially in California?

If you are not on the board, you have to submit complaint with HOA and I feel that she need to do the same.
How would you convince her that what she does is not right? (conflict of interest maybe????)
I am looking through davis-stirling.com but can't find relevant section that I can apply to this case.

Please help!

Whether the Board can make a rule banning all music play in the backyard depends on what the CC&Rs say. I think the best solution is for the HOA President (who presides over board meetings) to ask if there is a second to the motion. If there is no second, the President declares, "The motion dies for lack of a second." Move on.

I believe in California, this director has a right to have topics placed on the agenda. Give her a couple minutes to make her point. As needed that what she wants is not in the board's authority (per the CC&Rs and state statute). Then ask if there is a motion. When she motions, no one should second it (unless someone sees merit to passing the motion and wants to second it).

As for her specific objections to a neighbor, simply keep calmly and coolly asking her to submit a formal complaint. Then move on.

The president must preside, or none of this will work.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/27/2020 12:26 PM

Thanks.

the problem is that other board members, including myself, tends to agree to her because no one want to be her enemy and keep a good relationship with her in the board. No one want to be a bad person in this situation and become her enemy. So we already passed a new rule something similar to that 'no music in the backyard" example. Now she want to make more rules to solve her personal issue with her neighbor.
And her neighbor is now complaining that he is being unfairly targeted by this particular board member and the board as a whole.

I would like to tell her to stop without being personal. That is why I am looking for something to show her. To show, "it's not what I say, it's what they say".

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Convention, per Robert's Rules and other how-to-run-a-meeting authorities, is, at the end of discussion, to require a motion. No motion, no further discussion. If she is not following this rule, you have an obligation to everyone attending to stop it. Perhaps bear in mind a softened version of the following:

"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." -- Paul Newman

Are you the HOA president? If you do not want to play a bit of bad cop now and then, then maybe you should not be president.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Kevin,

With Augustin.

The very purpose of the Board is conduct BUSINESS - not to be friends with others on the Board, or even the community. Sure, having good relationships is important, but if you as a Board member (a DIRECTOR) believe you have a time waster on the Board, you simply must address it.

If that time waster is also bringing up motions that don't relate to your HOA's real needs, simply make sure none of the motions makes it past the motion stage.

Take control before this gets too hard.

If you are the President, then, definitely take control and run the meeting appropriately.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 04/27/2020 12:55 PM
Kevin,

With Augustin.

The very purpose of the Board is conduct BUSINESS - not to be friends with others on the Board, or even the community. Sure, having good relationships is important, but if you as a Board member (a DIRECTOR) believe you have a time waster on the Board, you simply must address it.

If that time waster is also bringing up motions that don't relate to your HOA's real needs, simply make sure none of the motions makes it past the motion stage.

Take control before this gets too hard.

If you are the President, then, definitely take control and run the meeting appropriately.

Thank you Augustin and George.

That's right, no one want to be a bad cop here. So that is why we want to find a bad cop from outside such as a section of a law which we can show her.
I just can't say "look, i feel what you are doing is not right". I need to give her some real basis of why she id doing wrong.

I am trying to find something from davis-stirling.com which I can use as a bad cop and show her.
Can anyone tell me where I can find relevant section?

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 12:45 PM
the problem is that other board members, including myself, tends to agree to her because no one want to be her enemy and keep a good relationship with her in the board. No one want to be a bad person in this situation and become her enemy.

I think you already know what the problem is. You just don't want to deal with it. Too many people equate "business-like" with "mean".

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I don't see why you can't tell her she seems to be pushing her personal agenda. When you're on the board, it's no longer about you - EVERYONE is expected to be transparent and fair when dealing with their neighbors. Part of that means you have to set priorities and sometimes make decisions people may not necessarily agree with - it's always nice if you can get along with your neighbors, but when they act inappropriately, you have to let them know. This also applies if you and/or your colleagues get out of line, so get used to it.

Unfortunately, there are people who join the board thinking they can use their position to lord over everyone else. That needs to stop right now. Besides this appears to be more of a rift between two neighbors and I've always said the only time the board should get involved in such disputes is if the common areas are being misused or abused, or if several people have the same complaint against a neighbor.

Until then, this lady will have to grow up and deal with her neighbor as an adult. She has one vote, just as the rest of you do, so why so skurred? If you have to, call an executive session and deal with this (it's appropriate since you are talking about board member discipline). While you're at it, remind her that if she does file a formal complaint, she will have to refrain from voting on whatever the board decides to do (and leave the room as the rest of you deliberate.)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Posters have asked, Kevin, are you president? Are you on the Board?

You say she already got a new rule made. Did your Board send it out to the owners for the state-required 28 day comment period before the Board voted to approve the rule?

Does she have her agenda items listed on the notice that legally must be posted in a good place in your HOA 72 hours before your open meetings? If not, your board should not discuss her "ideas" at all.

What size is your HOA? Do you have a property manager?

What do your rules or maybe you Bylaws say about neighbor to neighbor complaints like loud music? How are they supposed to be handled?

I think you need to review your own documents first before you go to Davis-stirling.com. If there, though, go to "Rules" in the Index to see how they must be made legally in CA HOAs.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kevin

Being the bad cop is better than having her control the agenda. Shut her down.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 1:10 PM
I just can't say "look, I feel what you are doing is not right". I need to give her some real basis of why [what] she is doing is wrong.

She is probably not going to be wrong every time. For example, while the rule on no music in backyards emanates from a personal dispute, she proposed the rule for the entire community. ("The personal is the political" comes to mind.) I would consider this a legitimate agenda item. The president is obliged to put it on the agenda. You do not like it. Maybe you loathe her values in general. But it would not be the first time someone got on the board with personal gripes that many other members also have and wanted change (within the constraints of the CC&Rs).

I think this is one reason why you are not getting exact answers on how a board meeting needs to be run. Instead, you are getting general guidance.

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 1:10 PM
I am trying to find something from davis-stirling.com which I can use as a bad cop and show her. Can anyone tell me where I can find relevant section?

Understand that davis-stirling.com is a web site run by a law firm. It is extremely helpful and can provide valid citations to statutes and case law. But quotes that are from neither of the latter generally represent the opinions of the attorneys at this law firm.

Topics at davis-stirling.com that you can put in the search engine and then review:
-- meetings
-- agenda
-- rules
-- fiduciary duty

Check especially:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Conducting-Meetings-Menu, especially the links to "topic limitations"
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Disruptive-Director

Also research KerryL1's important point. In my opinion she posts information like this based on many years of experience.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/27/2020 3:11 PM
Posters have asked, Kevin, are you president? Are you on the Board?

You say she already got a new rule made. Did your Board send it out to the owners for the state-required 28 day comment period before the Board voted to approve the rule?

Does she have her agenda items listed on the notice that legally must be posted in a good place in your HOA 72 hours before your open meetings? If not, your board should not discuss her "ideas" at all.

What size is your HOA? Do you have a property manager?

What do your rules or maybe you Bylaws say about neighbor to neighbor complaints like loud music? How are they supposed to be handled?

I think you need to review your own documents first before you go to Davis-stirling.com. If there, though, go to "Rules" in the Index to see how they must be made legally in CA HOAs.

Yes, I am on the board not the president.
Yes we do have property manager and there are about 200 units in our communty.
Yes the rule was made according to our by-laws under the guidance of our HOA attorney. so no issue there.
For the neighbor to neighbor issue, we start with sending warning notice once we receive a complaint. Then it escalates to further action such as hearing and fining if the member does not comply. And the board is entitled to determine if a certain noise constitutes a nuisance or not.

The thing is that, she is the only person who complained about this. No other neighbors complained about their neighbor's playing music in there backyard. I think this is what makes this problematic.
I read somewhere on this board that if there is no multiple complaint on the same matter and if it did not happen in the common area, it is a neighbor to neighbor issue not an HOA issue.

Maybe the new rule was made legally, but I think this whole thing is un-ethical.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/27/2020 1:24 PM
I don't see why you can't tell her she seems to be pushing her personal agenda. When you're on the board, it's no longer about you - EVERYONE is expected to be transparent and fair when dealing with their neighbors. Part of that means you have to set priorities and sometimes make decisions people may not necessarily agree with - it's always nice if you can get along with your neighbors, but when they act inappropriately, you have to let them know. This also applies if you and/or your colleagues get out of line, so get used to it.

Unfortunately, there are people who join the board thinking they can use their position to lord over everyone else. That needs to stop right now. Besides this appears to be more of a rift between two neighbors and I've always said the only time the board should get involved in such disputes is if the common areas are being misused or abused, or if several people have the same complaint against a neighbor.

Until then, this lady will have to grow up and deal with her neighbor as an adult. She has one vote, just as the rest of you do, so why so skurred? If you have to, call an executive session and deal with this (it's appropriate since you are talking about board member discipline). While you're at it, remind her that if she does file a formal complaint, she will have to refrain from voting on whatever the board decides to do (and leave the room as the rest of you deliberate.)

Exactly,

That is the cause of the problem I see.
There was no multiple complaints. The only complaining person was this board member. And it happened in her neighbor's backyard. So it looks like a neighbor to neighbor issue to me.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 4:58 PM
The thing is that, she is the only person who complained about this. No other neighbors complained about their neighbor's playing music in there backyard. I think this is what makes this problematic.

If you do not like the new rule, isn't the problem the directors who voted with this other director?

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/27/2020 4:58 PM
I read somewhere on this board that if there is no multiple complaint on the same matter and if it did not happen in the common area, it is a neighbor to neighbor issue not an HOA issue.

In California, the courts have been clear that HOAs are legally obliged to enforce the covenants. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Duty-to-Enforce

I think what you are dealing with is the usual board politics. For most people, board service is not fun. Reading at this forum regularly might give a little relief.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

So, Kevin, you wrote that she makes motions at every meeting. Are these motions on the noticed agenda that must be posted 4 days before the meeting?

In our HOA and others there is our own rule that certain issues, like noise nuances, must be corroborated by property management our security officers or a board member before the board will consider calling the alleged violator to a hearing. Your board can make that rule too. It is not a state law.

Your CC&Rs probably has a nuisance clause so her gripe could be legit. But I'd urge the board to go through a hearing with the alleged violator be fore a rue is made.

You wrote that your Bylaws were fowled to make a new rule she wanted. But do your Bylaws comply with the Davis Stirling Act re: the 28-day comment period for owners? What is the rule she succeeded in getting the Board to approve? I don't think is was the noise problem, right?

Unfortunately, over my many years of board service, I've seen a few directors who o a only are interested in one or a very few HOA matters. They don't seem to have minds wide enough to see the big picture so focused on this or that single topic.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Everything Kerry said is exactly what I am feeling here. She is another 1 hit wonder Board member and they come along all the time. Your Job as a Board member that has a bigger view is to remind her that her job is to oversee the whole community not just her neighbor.

I am confused by the motion being past as others have said. First step to any compliant is to send a warning letter to the violator and then follow up with all the other steps that are normally done. Then invite this person to an Executive session and she would have to leave the room because she is involved in this case. That would give the homeowner a pretty good idea who started this mess. She probably would not take this route because of this happening. Use the rules to keep her from destroying your Boards credibility.

When people have noise or other complaints I ask them to use their Smart phones to document the incident. This gives a time stamp and actual proof without that it is just a unfounded compliant. Also noise complaints can be called in to the Local Police

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/27/2020 6:12 PM
So, Kevin, you wrote that she makes motions at every meeting. Are these motions on the noticed agenda that must be posted 4 days before the meeting?

In our HOA and others there is our own rule that certain issues, like noise nuances, must be corroborated by property management our security officers or a board member before the board will consider calling the alleged violator to a hearing. Your board can make that rule too. It is not a state law.

Your CC&Rs probably has a nuisance clause so her gripe could be legit. But I'd urge the board to go through a hearing with the alleged violator be fore a rue is made.

You wrote that your Bylaws were fowled to make a new rule she wanted. But do your Bylaws comply with the Davis Stirling Act re: the 28-day comment period for owners? What is the rule she succeeded in getting the Board to approve? I don't think is was the noise problem, right?

Unfortunately, over my many years of board service, I've seen a few directors who o a only are interested in one or a very few HOA matters. They don't seem to have minds wide enough to see the big picture so focused on this or that single topic.

Hi Kerry.
Yes we did sent out/posted letter to comply to that 28 day comment period. No it was not noise issue but it's a nuisance issue. I just used an example because I did not feel comfortable disclosing too much information here.
We do have some rules on how we handle nuisance complaint. However, we did not have to have a hearing with the alleged violator because she did not even file a complaint instead, she just started a motion to make a new rule to solve her problem.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

First step to any compliant is to send a warning letter to the violator and then follow up with all the other steps that are normally done. Then invite this person to an Executive session and she would have to leave the room because she is involved in this case. That would give the homeowner a pretty good idea who started this mess. She probably would not take this route because of this happening. Use the rules to keep her from destroying your Boards credibility.

Yes, that's exactly what should have happened. But like you said, she used her power as board director to motion a new rule to solve her issue. so she can even vote for it.
We could use the rule to contain her but at the same time, no one can stop her from making a motion on whatever she wants. The board could have shot it down at the voting.
But other board directors are either not want to confront her or not aware of what's the problem. so that is why her motion ended up being a rule.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/27/2020 5:05 PM

If you do not like the new rule, isn't the problem the directors who voted with this other director?

Quote:

Yes, in fact, other directors are problem too. They are simply not well educated in my personal opinion. Most of them do not aware that what this particular director does could cause a problem to the whole association. And some of them are well aware of the problem but not want to become her enemy.

I understand that HOA must enforce the covenants. The issue is not about enforcing, but making new rules based on personal need.

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/27/2020 6:12 PM
So, Kevin, you wrote that she makes motions at every meeting. Are these motions on the noticed agenda that must be posted 4 days before the meeting?

Hi Kerry,
Yes we put a notice 4 days before. But we used broad term like "proposed changes to R&R". We did not make it very specific. Could this be a problem?

KevinK15 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

So, I've decided to start to talk about this.
Should I talk to her personally? Or should I bring this up in the board meeting to talk in front of everyone?
Or do you recommend to talk to other board members first to help them to understand why it is wrong with what she does?

How would you guys go about this?

No matter who I talk to, I have to convince them that this is a neighbor to neighbor issue so must be handled through the formal complain procedure and it is abusing of director's power if she try to make rule favors herself every time.

How would you guys explain that this is a neighbor to neighbor issue? How would you decide if an issue is an issue between two neighbors or an issue between neighbor and HOA? Any tips?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Yes, Kevin, go to Davis-stirling.com, agenda. Vague agenda item are discouraged. She needs to send her agenda item to the president or PM or both with details and evidence about why her item should even be on the agenda. She should state the wording she wants to be in your R&R. The Board should have her materials in their board book to review well before the meeting.

If she follows those rules you'll just have to put up with her monthly requests and vote down her ideas that do not serve your community. The mistake the cowards on your board is making is worrying about her opinions more than serving your community as a whole.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK15 on 04/28/2020 12:08 PM
No matter who I talk to, I have to convince them that this is a neighbor to neighbor issue so must be handled through the formal complain procedure and it is abusing of director's power if she try to make rule favors herself every time.

Next time an issue of this director's comes up, ask her at the board meeting why she did not try to resolve it through the formal complaint procedure. If she responds with something like, "I think we need a rule that does _____," then you are stuck checking to see if the rule is allowed by the covenants and letting the other directors vote to create the rule.

Else I think you are learning what a pain HOA boards are, especially when directors are not well-educated.

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