IS it Fair

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Within the past week a home in the HOA I live in was burglarized while the owners were away. The home in question, the rear faces a block wall with a dead end street that leads to a wash. A renewed request by a few owners to finish installing fence extenders along this street and the street where the backs of the houses face the wash. Personally I don't think it is fair for the assertion as a whole to foot the bill for fence extenders, because it will not benefit the community as a whole. Originally fence extenders were installed because residents from the low income apartment building were hoping the wall into other peoples yards, and they were then trespassing in our pool. fence extenders were installed behind 21 homes that abut the apartment property, and about 6 homes on the dead-end street. There is an entrance to the community on the dead-end street. to complete what was left off would entail about another 40 homes.

Personally if those 40 some homes want to pony up the money to do this, that is all fine and dandy.. I feel projects should benefit the community as a whole not just select individuals. There is no solid proof that the burglars breached the block wall to enter the property, even tho entry to the home was made by smashing a rear window. I would honestly like to see the money it would cost for gate extensions be spent on surveillance cameras with plate readers at each entrance.
What are your thoughts?

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

If it is the responsibility of the HOA then it should be paid for by everyone, if it is deemed necessary. Just as a pool, though not used by everyone, benefits all by raising home values, a security feature benefits the whole neighborhood by keeping up values. Crime in a neighborhood will probably lower home values quicker than anything.

Every neighborhood is different but I don't generally think it's practical to divy up the expenses based on who benefits the most.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Unless there are impenetrable fences between the properties on the perimeter and the remainder of the community, I would vote for the cost to be shared by the entire community.

Your benefit argument does not seem reasonable, nor fair.

If those other things also need to be paid for, and funds are not available, then it is time for a special assessment. Once all completed, the reserve fund needs to be adjusted to account for repair/replacement cost.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

What do your CC&Rs say about who is responsible for the wall?

Is the wall the property of the person whose land it sits on? If it is association property (either on common area or an easement on the homeowner's lot) then the HOA is responsible.

Do the wall extenders count as capital improvements, thus needing a vote of the membership?

I don't think we know enough to answer this.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/27/2020 4:48 AM
What do your CC&Rs say about who is responsible for the wall?

Is the wall the property of the person whose land it sits on? If it is association property (either on common area or an easement on the homeowner's lot) then the HOA is responsible.

Do the wall extenders count as capital improvements, thus needing a vote of the membership?

I don't think we know enough to answer this.

I don't believe that wall extenders are capital improvements, they are just warm fuzzy feelings. As far as who owns the block wall, because it is a boarder wall to to the community, I am going to guess it is a common element. Our PM even said that fence extenders really do nothing to prevent someone from climbing over.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Guessing is bad.

Listening to the PM because they agree with you is bad.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 04/27/2020 6:15 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/27/2020 4:48 AM
What do your CC&Rs say about who is responsible for the wall?

Is the wall the property of the person whose land it sits on? If it is association property (either on common area or an easement on the homeowner's lot) then the HOA is responsible.

Do the wall extenders count as capital improvements, thus needing a vote of the membership?

I don't think we know enough to answer this.

I don't believe that wall extenders are capital improvements, they are just warm fuzzy feelings. As far as who owns the block wall, because it is a boarder wall to to the community, I am going to guess it is a common element. Our PM even said that fence extenders really do nothing to prevent someone from climbing over.

It really doesn't matter what you think. As Cathy said, what do your CC&R's say? Does the declaration refer to a fence that extends across the entire perimeter?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 04/27/2020 6:15 AM
I don't believe that wall extenders are capital improvements, they are just warm fuzzy feelings. As far as who owns the block wall, because it is a border wall to to the community, I am going to guess it is a common element

I do not buy this reasoning. If this were a boundary preventing entry into a common element, and the CC&Rs authorize a wall or similar, then the HOA is obliged to install same. But if this boundary is between land owned by a HOA member and land outside the HOA community's boundaries, then I believe the only way the HOA is obliged to install a wall is if the CC&Rs say the HOA is so obliged.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/27/2020 8:40 AM

Posted By LetA on 04/27/2020 6:15 AM
I don't believe that wall extenders are capital improvements, they are just warm fuzzy feelings. As far as who owns the block wall, because it is a border wall to to the community, I am going to guess it is a common element

I do not buy this reasoning. If this were a boundary preventing entry into a common element, and the CC&Rs authorize a wall or similar, then the HOA is obliged to install same. But if this boundary is between land owned by a HOA member and land outside the HOA community's boundaries, then I believe the only way the HOA is obliged to install a wall is if the CC&Rs say the HOA is so obliged.

It is not about building a block wall, a 6.5' block wall already exist. it is about installing a 2' wrought iron gate extender that is installed on the top of the existing block wall to make the wall taller.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Leta

If a part of your perimeter wall already has the extension, why not do the whole perimeter wall?

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Vertical extender - just a part of the wall that already exists.

Install, rebaseline your reserve funds based on the need to repair/replace a now more expensive wall.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 04/27/2020 11:43 AM
It is not about building a block wall, a 6.5' block wall already exist. it is about installing a 2' wrought iron gate extender that is installed on the top of the existing block wall to make the wall taller.

I do not think this affects the repeated requests by members here for you to check your CC&Rs.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/27/2020 11:55 AM
Leta

If a part of your perimeter wall already has the extension, why not do the whole perimeter wall?

Because 2 of the 3 original BOD's that lived on the street where the only set of extenders was installed

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 04/26/2020 4:37 PM

Within the past week a home in the HOA I live in was burglarized while the owners were away. The home in question, the rear faces a block wall with a dead end street that leads to a wash. A renewed request by a few owners to finish installing fence extenders along this street and the street where the backs of the houses face the wash. Personally I don't think it is fair for the assertion as a whole to foot the bill for fence extenders, because it will not benefit the community as a whole. Originally fence extenders were installed because residents from the low income apartment building were hoping the wall into other peoples yards, and they were then trespassing in our pool. fence extenders were installed behind 21 homes that abut the apartment property, and about 6 homes on the dead-end street. There is an entrance to the community on the dead-end street. to complete what was left off would entail about another 40 homes.

Personally if those 40 some homes want to pony up the money to do this, that is all fine and dandy.. I feel projects should benefit the community as a whole not just select individuals. There is no solid proof that the burglars breached the block wall to enter the property, even tho entry to the home was made by smashing a rear window. I would honestly like to see the money it would cost for gate extensions be spent on surveillance cameras with plate readers at each entrance.
What are your thoughts?

You say there's no solid proof the burglars jumped the wall - that may be true, but have YOU checked out the police report? Or ask the neighbors if they had a surveillance camera that captured what was going on?

I agree association funds should be used to benefit the entire community, but if you feel strongly about this, why haven't YOU gone to the board with this suggestion? Better yet, maybe you could research the matter (including costs) and present your findings to the board. It could then debate the matter and perhaps call a special homeowner's meeting, where people can vote on what they do.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Is it fair the HOA spends it's money on projects that effect the neighborhood? It is the reason why it is funded and operated by all the neighbors. If this was necessary project then membership should hold a vote simple as that. It is majority rules even if it's only effecting a minor amount of members.

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/27/2020 3:53 PM
Is it fair the HOA spends it's money on projects that effect the neighborhood? It is the reason why it is funded and operated by all the neighbors. If this was necessary project then membership should hold a vote simple as that. It is majority rules even if it's only effecting a minor amount of members.

Your making an assumption that the CC&R's don't say differently. That's why everyone keeps asking LetA about them.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

With JohnT, I think we all want to know what the CC&Rs say about responsibility for the perimeter wall.

But LetA isn't telling us. Are you on the Board now, LetA?

ChadH3 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

If you only have one entrance to your subdivision, I'd suggest looking into Flock Safety ALPR cameras. You essentially lease the cameras from them so they're on the hook for replacing them if they're damaged or not working. Everything runs on solar energy and LTE data so no need to run electricity or internet to your entrance. We signed on with them last fall and they've come in handy. Used the other day to pull a license plate on a suspected child abduction attempt.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/27/2020 5:55 PM
With JohnT, I think we all want to know what the CC&Rs say about responsibility for the perimeter wall.

But LetA isn't telling us. Are you on the Board now, LetA?

I had to dig them out..

Maintenance Standards. Subject to Article 11 pertaining to destruction
of Improvements and Article 12 pertaining to eminent domain, the Association shall maintain,
repair and replace the Common Elements and Improvements thereon, including, if applicable,
those walls defining the outside boundaries of the Common Elements, as set forth on the
Development Site Plan attached hereto as Exhibit "c" (the "Perimeter Walls"), or shall contract
for such maintenance, repair and replacement to assure maintenance of the Common Elements
and all Improvements thereon, from and after delivery by Declarant of the same pursuant to NRS
116.31038, in a clean, sanitary and attractive condition reasonably consistent with prudent
property management practices and the Budget. The Board shall determine, in its sole
discretion, the level and frequency of maintenance of the Common Elements.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChadH3 on 04/27/2020 8:22 PM
If you only have one entrance to your subdivision, I'd suggest looking into Flock Safety ALPR cameras. You essentially lease the cameras from them so they're on the hook for replacing them if they're damaged or not working. Everything runs on solar energy and LTE data so no need to run electricity or internet to your entrance. We signed on with them last fall and they've come in handy. Used the other day to pull a license plate on a suspected child abduction attempt.

Thank you for that, our original security company installed 720p cameras which were crap, and it required a $75.00 per month business line internet connection.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChadH3 on 04/27/2020 8:22 PM
If you only have one entrance to your subdivision, I'd suggest looking into Flock Safety ALPR cameras. You essentially lease the cameras from them so they're on the hook for replacing them if they're damaged or not working. Everything runs on solar energy and LTE data so no need to run electricity or internet to your entrance. We signed on with them last fall and they've come in handy. Used the other day to pull a license plate on a suspected child abduction attempt.

Just went to their web site and under FAQ and it said the price was $2,000 a year for one camera.(2 year contract required.) I love the idea but man that's expensive.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It's clear that the HOA is responsible for the entire perimeter wall. I'd say the extensions were added on and should have been paid for out of your operating budget or via special assessment. They could not have listed as a reserves item since they didn't exist.

But, in fairness since the Board did approve extensions for many lineal feet of wall, the fair thing to do is to approve extensions for all permeter walls.

Are you on the board LetA?

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Yes I'm on the board, and the only reason the wall extensions were installed was two of the original three board members lived on the street that abuts the apartment property where renters from the apartment complex were jumping into peoples backyards to get into out community and scale the gate to use our pool.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Beginning to sound kinda like whining ...

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Offhand, I still think that if some owners got this added perk--for whatever reason (which you already noted)--paid for by the HOA, that all should.